2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[Mrs. P]

It will great for Jason to go to other GPs anyway. He's been to France, Russia and Japan. He has a GP medal from TEB.

 

[TontoK]

This is a fascinating point. The USFSA has been politicking for years about the importance of "artistry", possibly because the US hasn't had any recent mens skaters, until now, who could compete with the world's top skaters on TES. But suddenly, with Nathan, the US has one of the top tech skaters in the world, so the USFSA may have to do a 180 degree shift with their politicking.

Actually, I don't agree with all this, but there is probably some merit in this discussion.

Although I sometimes thinks USFSA is stupid, they're not complete fools. They can count the quads and total the base values, just like anyone else. I sincerely doubt that they're going to want to send skaters who concede 30 points or more in TES, not matter how pretty they skate. Provided they have options, that is.

My wildest one-year-out projection is the US team next year will be some combination of Nathan, Max, Vincent, and Torgeshev (provided the last two continue on current trajectory).

 

[TontoK]

I kind of think Josh is going to have to prove himself again. That may be in lesser competitions, he may have to come up through regionals, etc. I would be very surprised if Josh got a Grand Prix assignment this year.

I'm just glad he's back in competition and I hope he's totally healed.

I've been accused of only caring about skaters who will win medals. Josh is the perfect counter-example to that.

I'm not sure he can regain the technical chops he'll need to be really competitive, and I do not care one bit. I am really excited at the chance to see him skate again.

 

[karne]

I'm not sure he can regain the technical chops he'll need to be really competitive, and I do not care one bit. I am really excited at the chance to see him skate again.

Uh, someone clearly has not being paying attention...

 

[TontoK]

Uh, someone clearly has not being paying attention...

OK. What have I missed? Fill me in.

 

[karne]

OK. What have I missed? Fill me in.

In the interview that announced it, he said he was landing 3As. Two days later, Damon posted video of a hand-down (but rotated) 4T. The next day, he posted a clean 4S (a completely new element for Josh) and a clean 4T.

I don't think Josh's technical ability is going to hold him back.

 

[TontoK]

In the interview that announced it, he said he was landing 3As. Two days later, Damon posted video of a hand-down (but rotated) 4T. The next day, he posted a clean 4S (a completely new element for Josh) and a clean 4T.

I don't think Josh's technical ability is going to hold him back.

Well thank you for that news!

How thrilling that, coming back from a bad injury, he's not just regaining form... he's upping the ante.

Outstanding!

 

[andromache]

I'm dying for Josh Farris to get the host spot for SA (and he's in Colorado, FYI, so USFS should have some idea of what's going on with him before any summer comps), mostly because as long as my mom's health stays decent, I'm going to get to see him live if he's at SA!

 

[karne]

I am trying my best to keep a lid on my expectations and excitement. It was a serious injury, after all, and instagram videos don't always translate to competition (at least not right away). He probably doesn't even have programs yet!

But I suppose I ought to forewarn you all that I will be green with envy of anyone who gets to see him live, and the second he's at a comp with video, I will be glued to it.

 

[el henry]

.....

My wildest one-year-out projection is the US team next year will be some combination of Nathan, Max, Vincent, and Torgeshev (provided the last two continue on current trajectory).

Wow, I love me some Andrew T. (as the longest seated passenger on the train) and even I don't think he'll be on the team *next* year.

Then again, I love Andrew because of how much he reminds me of Jason: his performance chops and his artistry. I don't even know what jumps he's practicing, nor do I care.

And since I'm the last person on earth who licks their chops and rubs their hands, just you wait, Jason, you lazy good for nothin' who can't even do one little measly quad, you'll about to get taken over, hahahahaha, I'm not looking for Andrew to rush it either.

 

[noskates]

While I wish the best for Josh, landing any jump in practice doesn't always translate to competition. The men's competition this past week certainly proved that.

ElHenry - were you serious in calling Jason a "lazy good for nothing?" If so...............that's really disgusting. If you were kidding.....maybe let on you were kidding? Sheesh.

 

[TontoK]

While I wish the best for Josh, landing any jump in practice doesn't always translate to competition. The men's competition this past week certainly proved that.

ElHenry - were you serious in calling Jason a "lazy good for nothing?" If so...............that's really disgusting. If you were kidding.....maybe let on you were kidding? Sheesh.

In El Henry's defense, I believe he is a solid and vocal Jason supporter. He's probably tweaking me for discounting Jason's chances. We had a friendly back and forth on another thread.

 

[karne]

While I wish the best for Josh, landing any jump in practice doesn't always translate to competition. The men's competition this past week certainly proved that.

Oh, I agree. Which is why I'm trying to keep a firm lid on my emotions.

ElHenry - were you serious in calling Jason a "lazy good for nothing?" If so...............that's really disgusting. If you were kidding.....maybe let on you were kidding? Sheesh.

el henry was absolutely jesting...he adores Jason.

 

[bekalc]

As Ive said before, neither Jason, his team, nor his fans dispute that he's at a big disadvantage without even one solid quad yet. You and many others have expressed the opinion that it's too late and he'll never catch up. You may be right - I don't have a crystal cell. But until he retires, where he ends up technically is open to question.

However, I do want to point out a couple of things. First, both last year and this season, even the top guys with many quads have scored far less than their best. They don't all do 4-5 quads yet, and even if they do, they don't always land them. So they're not always scoring 103-116 points in TES - only sometimes. It's true that their lowest scores are usually at the beginning of the season, and that most likely at Worlds they will be scoring at the higher end. But it's not guaranteed. As you know, at the GPF, Hanyu, Fernandez and Chan had TES of 96, 86, and 80, respectively. Here, Shoma's TES was 99, Patrick's was 89, and Boyang's was 100.

You might think those lower TES scores are still mostly still out of range for Jason. But actually, at Skate America, before his quad was called < (he also lost a spin level) his TES was 98+. With one quad. Now you can say that score is inflated, but frankly, many comps have inflated scores for the top few skaters, it's not just Jason at SA.

My point is that for Jason, with two quads - he's training two - he may still be competitive in certain circumstances. And he may not. But at this point, I don't think it's any use worrying about what's going to happen. That's especially true because we don't know if ISU rules will change after the Olympics

Does your TES analysis include downgrade jumps for those other guys too. I am sorry but a downgraded jump does not count.

Nobody's using the word never with Jason. I think rather the word is unlikely- and it's skepticism.... Yes a lot of the quad guys are messing up, But a lot of them are just getting use to putting their difficult content in competition. I remember when Hanyu was falling on his quad sal consistently. Now its a consistent jump.

Some of those guys may decide to lighten their load in the Olympics. Go for 3 quads rather than 5. That's a real strategy that works. Do hard content that's to much for you than lighten your load a little bit, so that what you do for the big competition is easy. Tarasova did that with Kulik in 1997-1998. She gave him a super difficult program in 1997, he did not skate well. He worked on his stamina, and she gave him an easier program for the Olympics. He won everything in sight that year.

The quad also is a lot psychologically. Do you remember 2010 Brezina? Because I do. He was landing 8 triple programs easily. Magnificent jumps. Then he started adding in his quads. And we have the inconsistent skater we have today. That's why I am not so convinced that Jason is this great competitor. Even Patrick Chan has talked about how doing quads in competition helped him learn how hard it is. How much it takes out of you.

So at this point, the quad is coming in practice, would be uacceptable if I were his skating federation. HE's had three years to get it.

People are acting like it's cruel for us to say USFSA should focus on the skaters who are producing the quads. But you know what sometimes tough love/ no more excuses is the best thing possible for a skater. Look at Alissa Czisny. She was given questionably, a crazy National title. Skated poorly (which was no shock to anyone)

The next year at Nationals, the judges actually started truly calling out on her issues like underrotations. And you know happened, she changed coaches and made a ton of improvements....

So if I were USFSA my feelings towards Brown, Rippon and all the skaters. You have the quad, no excuses.

 

[concorde]

For those that are pro-Jason, if a lady could only do doubles but had outstanding skating and presentation skills, would you be saying she should be going to Worlds? With that line of thought, why is it ok for a man with "only" triples to be hyped when we have other men that can do quads? That is why I thought Vincent should be going to Worlds over Jason.

I do agree that the men do have a greater chance of getting 3 Olympic spots to the women keeping 3. But 3 for either will be tough.

 

[andromache]

For those that are pro-Jason, if a lady could only do doubles but had outstanding skating and presentation skills, would you be saying she should be going to Worlds? With that line of thought, why is it ok for a man with "only" triples to be hyped when we have other men that can do quads? That is why I thought Vincent should be going to Worlds over Jason.

I do agree that the men do have a greater chance of getting 3 Olympic spots to the women keeping 3. But 3 for either will be tough.

Triple jumps are required elements in the ladies' SPs. Quad jumps are not for the men. Quad jumps for men, while growing more and more prevalent, are still not the standard that triples are for women. They simply aren't equivalent like you're pretending they are.

FWIW, at Worlds last years, 8/24 men - a full one-third of competitors - failed to attempt or to fully rotate a quad in the LP. This number does NOT include the number of men who fully-rotated a quad but received negative GOE, which would increase the number by a lot. One of those men without a fully-rotated quad, Adam Rippon, placed 4th in the LP, over men with quads but lots of mistakes on their "easy" triples.

Compare that to the women: 0/24 women in the LP failed to execute a fully-rotated triple in the LP, and 1/24 women failed to execute a fully-rotated triple with positive GOE.

Your false equivalency is a transparently poor argument.

The 5s and 6s Vincent would receive in PCS at senior Worlds would undo all the points he gets from the (underotated) quads he does.

 

[TMC]

For those that are pro-Jason, if a lady could only do doubles but had outstanding skating and presentation skills, would you be saying she should be going to Worlds? With that line of thought, why is it ok for a man with "only" triples to be hyped when we have other men that can do quads? That is why I thought Vincent should be going to Worlds over Jason.

I do agree that the men do have a greater chance of getting 3 Olympic spots to the women keeping 3. But 3 for either will be tough.

Whether he does only triples or not, Jason's PB TSS (which is from this season) of 268+ is still 9th best out of the men going to Worlds and in the top 15 TSScores of all time. It's also over 20 points above Vincent's PB. Anybody can do quads on planned content sheets, but actually accumulating the points on the ice is what matters in the end.

I'm a Jason fan and I'm happy that he's going to Worlds, but I wouldn't have complained if they'd chosen Vincent instead. When you think about PBs and competitive experience, I can see why they chose Jason. I can also think of reasons why they could have chosen Vincent instead.

I'm sorry that so many people are disappointed because they chose one and not the other, but it is what it is. Maybe think of it this way: if Jason and Nathan get 3 spots, it means that Vincent will have a better chance of going to the Olympics next year.

 

[mrrice]

I kind of think Josh is going to have to prove himself again. That may be in lesser competitions, he may have to come up through regionals, etc. I would be very surprised if Josh got a Grand Prix assignment this year.

I'm just glad he's back in competition and I hope he's totally healed.

This is a good question.

How do Senior B's work? Are those by assignment as well? Maybe that's where Joshua should start his comeback. I know he can land quads in his home rink with no pressure. However, I really think he should ease into the season. Jason got on the Podium with no quad and Adam rarely lands more than one, if that, per program. What I don't want to see are skaters like Ross, Grant, Timothy, Vincent, or Alex Johnson being passed up to get Josh out there.

My next question is about the Junior Men. Do either Andrew Torgashev or Alexei Krasnozhon plan on moving up to the Senior level? If so, we have a very crowed and talented field of skaters who should all get assignments ahead of Josh. Now, is there a limit to how many US skaters can compete at Skate America? Maybe they can give him a host pick and let him do Senior B's until he's really back in Competitive Condition.

 

[noskates]

Well, if I was the USFS I would definitely send JOsh to as many Senior B comps as possible just to make sure he's still competitive - physically and mentally. It will all come down to how he does at Nationals anyway. Agree with MrRice about not passing up skaters who have been working hard and haven't taken time off for any reason. Love Josh but he needs to earn his way back.

And as for the continual talk about Jason, et.al. who don't have quads............look back at 4CCs and see how many of those skaters actually skated clean. Oh wait - NONE of them? The "quadless" may not be on the top of the podium but obviously there is still room for someone who doesn't have a quad but has outstanding performance skills and high GOEs on what he or she does do. Being in the top 10 in an international competition is nothing to sneeze at. I'm sure Jason and his team want him out there being totally competitive but the guy has been hurt since last year. I'm hoping for a very healthy Jason and a very healthy Josh. And I have gone on record on this forum so many times - there should be a limit to quads in a program and more emphasis and just downright good, clean skating. It still pains me to see someone get a medal after they've landed on their butts in the program. Something really wrong with that. Maybe they shouldn't get points for rotation.............

 

[mrrice]

I have a feeling that after Nathan's showing at 4CC, the US Men will make quads a much bigger priority than in the past. Nathan is a great skater but, he is not in the same league artistically, as some of our other Men. However, now that he has beaten 2 World Champions, I think his PCS number will forever be elevated. I know I'm getting ahead of myself but, next year is going to be a blood bath.