To World. He has over a month to get minimum TES for World. Jason should be alternate #1. If Vincent can't get minimum TES, Jason will go.
2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating
- Thread starter Mrs. P
- Start date
To World. He has over a month to get minimum TES for World. Jason should be alternate #1. If Vincent can't get minimum TES, Jason will go.
Max is not good. He is not a technician as some claimed to be. Almost always made that tragic mistake of 4sal-2toe in the sp. always make a few mistakes in the LP. His TES score is terrible most of the time. Can't believe there are people comparing him to Nathen.
If Max had skated clean competitions after competitions, he would have his PCS increased to mid 80s, possibly closer to 90. Remember he won SA, and could not sustain that momentum.
How many clean SP had he done in his career for a 1 quad skater? You can count them on one hand.
If Max had skated clean competitions after competitions, he would have his PCS increased to mid 80s, possibly closer to 90. Remember he won SA, and could not sustain that momentum.
How many clean SP had he done in his career for a 1 quad skater? You can count them on one hand.
Last edited:
Note to me: Remind Max not to pee on this fan's cheerios.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
Kind of ironic that your favorite skater is a 27 year old "artistic" skater who was too injured to compete at Nats and yet you're criticizing the selection of Jason over Vincent for the World Team. Would you have been as critical if Adam had been selected under similar circumstances? Would you have argued that Vincent needed the experience, that he had earned his spot on the World Team by placing second at Nats ahead of Adam, and that it was too big a risk to put a still-recovering Adam on the World Team with three Olympic spots on the line? Would you have been so sure that Vincent's showing at the Bavarian Open was proof positive of his higher scoring potential at Worlds, given that a healthy Adam scored a whopping 233.10 at the GPF but had a good season otherwise?
Last edited:
My response was directly to a comment you made about 4CCs, not Worlds. Here's the sequence:
Karne said: "Yes, the way some people are carrying on you'd think Jason placed last...or skated around and did no jumps..."
And your response to Karne: "Again, not the point. Vincent should have gone and place the same and get some international experience to prepare for next year. Vincent can do just as well if not better and he deserves it."
The phrase "should have gone" (past tense) could not refer to Worlds, which obviously hasn't happened yet.
Here I was think this thread finally got away from pro-Vincent vs. Pro-Jason and you brought it back.
Just becuase Adam is my favorite skater does not mean I think he would be the right skater to go to Worlds. If he had skated at Nationals and gotten 2nd, then I would feel otherwise.
Of the current ladies, Gracie is my favorite and has the 2nd best skating record after Ashley. With how things are going for Gracie this season, I am glad she was not selected to be on the World's team.
USFS has a long to history to favor artists over technicians. But technicians that are winning internationally.
It is much easier to focus on artistry when you do not have the higher technical skills. When you add in the highest technical skills, those tend to come at a cost and that is artistry. Given time, a truly great skater can achieve both.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
Thank you for your response. I'm not going to belabor the conversation regarding World Team selection any further.
I do want to say that in my opinion, the choice to focus first on technical skills and add "artistry" later is one choice, not the only choice. Like Jason, your favorite skater Adam has chosen the opposite path; I think which one a skater takes depends on his or her innate strengths and weaknesses, and both choices should be respected. While the rapid increase in tech levels currently puts skaters like Adam and Jason at a disadvantage, I think too many people - and I'm not saying you - are too quick to decide that they'll never improve enough technically to be competitive. I also think that too many people assume that it's easy to add "artistry" - that it's essentially just a little polishing of rough edges. But I personally think artistry should be defined by reference to skaters like Toller Cranston and John Curry, and of the current crop of top men, none are even close. I am hoping that after 2018, the ISU will tweak scoring to acknowledge that there should be more to the sport than jumping. JMO.
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2016
I believe too!!!!! Go Max go!
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2014
Yessss!:agree:
Forget Jason v. Nathan ETA: Or Vincent or whoever. What confounds me is the argument that artistry can be added, that it is something that can be learned, and that of course, it is oh-so-much easier to be an artist if you're not jumping all those wonderful, sports-like, medal-winning, athletic jumps.
I'm sorry, I need to say it this way: are you flipping *kidding* me? :dev2:
Artistry is a rare and special gift. It cannot be *added* after you mastered your 85 quads. In fact, I would argue that some skaters set about to master the 85 quads because they do not have the skills or the gift necessary for artistry. And being able to jump to the beat to rousing ballet music is not artistry.
So whereas I would never write off anyone, and I hold out hopes that all skaters can improve in all areas, artistry or performance should not be dismissed as something that can be learned "later". :disapp: Or we will have fewer "Five Toller" skates, and be much the poorer, because of it.:disapp:
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
Have to disagree with you here - I think that Yuzu and Javi have shown that once you are confident in the jumps, you can develop as an artist and/or performer. Perhaps neither is a Toller or a Curry, but Yuzu's skating skills have improved leaps and bounds over the past 4 years, and Javi can play a character and charm and audience very, very well. Just seeing the development from his semi-awkward Barber of Seville to his Sinatra program is
. I don't like the idea that artistry is a "gift" only to the select few. You can work your butt off to improve your skating, your attention to choreography, and your ability to interpret it. Of course, your development of jumps versus artistry will depend on how much you practice, and there's only so much time in one day. Once you've "mastered" one thing, you obviously still need to practice it, but you can devote more time to the stuff you still need to learn. And the younger you learn something, whether it's a quad lutz or Patrick Chan skating skills, the easier it is to do later on. But what part is going to be harder to develop the older you are, the jumps or the PCS stuff? Whatever the answer is will in part determine what it is skaters should be working on, and when.
Okay, I think we need to be a bit careful...cause artistry =/= program components. A bunch of the program components are actually technical -- skating skills, transitions. I say that choreography and interpretation deal more with artistry. And performance/execution is a hybrid.
Since, for better or worse, PCS is generally anchored in skating skills, that is why Nathan has received the PCS he received so far. I suppose one can argue that his skating skills aren't as well-displayed due to quads, but they still exist.
I do find that the judges do make a point to deviate if they sincerely feel a skater did well from a certain category. In the 4CC SP, Jason had a higher interpretation score relative to his other components. He had the 5th highest PCS overall, but the 4th highest IN.
Judges really rewarded Nathan for the five-quad program execution in PE. At 8.93, PE was his highest category and he tied for second (with Patrick; only Yuzu was higher) though was fourth overall.
Yeah, I think the approach each skater makes is really able on their resources and abilities at a given time. A key reason that Jason ended up working so much on the non-jump stuff, i.e. skating skills, performing, spins, flexibility, is because the jumps for him have always been more challenging. It was a way for him to stand out even if he didn't have the jumps of his competitors. If Jason not struggled so much on jumps, would he (and Kori) have adopted a different strategy? I don't know.
I think really whether artistry or tech is harder really depends on the skater.
Since, for better or worse, PCS is generally anchored in skating skills, that is why Nathan has received the PCS he received so far. I suppose one can argue that his skating skills aren't as well-displayed due to quads, but they still exist.
I do find that the judges do make a point to deviate if they sincerely feel a skater did well from a certain category. In the 4CC SP, Jason had a higher interpretation score relative to his other components. He had the 5th highest PCS overall, but the 4th highest IN.
Judges really rewarded Nathan for the five-quad program execution in PE. At 8.93, PE was his highest category and he tied for second (with Patrick; only Yuzu was higher) though was fourth overall.
Have to disagree with you here - I think that Yuzu and Javi have shown that once you are confident in the jumps, you can develop as an artist and/or performer. Perhaps neither is a Toller or a Curry, but Yuzu's skating skills have improved leaps and bounds over the past 4 years, and Javi can play a character and charm and audience very, very well. Just seeing the development from his semi-awkward Barber of Seville to his Sinatra program is
I don't like the idea that artistry is a "gift" only to the select few. You can work your butt off to improve your skating, your attention to choreography, and your ability to interpret it. Of course, your development of jumps versus artistry will depend on how much you practice, and there's only so much time in one day. Once you've "mastered" one thing, you obviously still need to practice it, but you can devote more time to the stuff you still need to learn. And the younger you learn something, whether it's a quad lutz or Patrick Chan skating skills, the easier it is to do later on. But what part is going to be harder to develop the older you are, the jumps or the PCS stuff? Whatever the answer is will in part determine what it is skaters should be working on, and when.
Yeah, I think the approach each skater makes is really able on their resources and abilities at a given time. A key reason that Jason ended up working so much on the non-jump stuff, i.e. skating skills, performing, spins, flexibility, is because the jumps for him have always been more challenging. It was a way for him to stand out even if he didn't have the jumps of his competitors. If Jason not struggled so much on jumps, would he (and Kori) have adopted a different strategy? I don't know.
I think really whether artistry or tech is harder really depends on the skater.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2014
Yuzu and Javi developed, but imo they did have artistic gifts to start out with. I remember being charmed by Javi's Pirates of the Caribbean way back when he was kind of a hot mess under Morozov. And Yuzuru's beautiful spins and sensitivity to music were already obvious to me in his work with Nanami Abe.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
When we are talking about "artistry" in regards to Curry and Toller, however, skating skills have to play a pretty big role, right? It is possible to have extremely effective interpretation and choreography with weak skating skills (Ashley Wagner), but skating skills are integral to Curry's and Toller's artistic ability, IMO.
Transitions are their own thing, and difficult to consider when we compare the skating masters of ye olden times with today.
I love Javi's Pirates of the Caribbean program! And Yuzu's R&J 1.0 (from 2012) remains one of my faves.
I will also note that Nathan is also not without artistic gifts either, but he had the ability to up the TES and stand out that way. The strategy makes sense.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
A bit of charisma or sensitivity to music still has to be cultivated for it to matter at the top levels of the sport (and to over-picky fans
), and even if you do not naturally have tendencies for those sorts of things, can be developed and cultivated. And like jumps, are probably easier to master the younger you are. Nathan has been well-served by his ballet training, even if it isn't up to el henry's standards (). Other skaters who struggle with PCS and have tried to make progress, like Max Aaron, would probably have a big advantage if they had been trained in dance as young children.- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
Okay, that is absolutely sick, twisted and nasty (to emulate Scott Hamilton!). A quad lutz in Rippon form?!?!
Tim Goebel would be proud... seems like the US men are yet again the new trailblazers for tech difficulty. Just don't go tano/Rippon'ing every quad, guys.
Also, absolutely Vincent should go to Worlds over Brown. He is technically more proficient than Nationals, and he needs to get out there if he happens to be the US #2 man next year. Brown is unfortunately not in peak form, nor is he really getting the PCS needed to make up for how far behind he is in tech content. And I highly doubt he'll magically get that quad come Worlds - cleanly rotated and upright. The US can send him, but they would definitely be depending on the other guys to mess up and Brown to go absolutely clean with lower tech content. Vincent won't have the PCS, but he can make up for it with an extra quad or two.
Last edited:
I agree. I actually think Jason, honestly, had the performance/interpretation ability, but only really had the super high-level skating skills in the last season or two. He didn't have weak skating skills per se, especially compared to his competitors, I'd say it was proficient, but not outstanding. I look at even Riverdance compared to now, and it's really clear he's worked on them. I think that's why his PCS are higher now then back then.
Well I guess it depends on whether Jason starting at ground zero with the quad now that he's training them again. Yeah, if he's going zero to 60, then maybe it's an issue. But if you want to take him at his word, he was making progress and landing them in practice prior to the injury rearing it's ugly head -- pre NHK, I suppose -- then maybe he has retained some muscle memory.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
Agreed. When I saw him at the start of this season, I was immediately impressed - I could see a major difference. I'd love to see a program like Riverdance (as opposed to a more "sensitive" program) from him next season now that his skating has improved so much, just to see the wow factor.
Didn't see the VIncent Zhou Rippon 4Lz until just now that it was quoted. I thought he left Tom Z.?
He said he wants to do a Latin program! Or maybe he'll go with the Hamilton program? Sounds like we'll see at least one upbeat program.
Sounds like Vincent is now consulting with Tom Z on jumps, which is probably a good thing.
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
ahhhh - I see Vincent has morphed into "the skater du jour!" Every year there's a new one. I don't have as much faith in Vincent as some of you do. He's been injured for most of his skating life and I really don't think he has the presentation skills that people are ascribing to him. But by all means - let just keep piling on the quads and then watch the splat fests at competitions.
I think some of you are seriously underrating presentation and agree with El (Elle :agree that it isn't just something you learn. I think Max is a perfect example of someone with mad technical skills and still trying to find that magic program for his artistic development. Men's figure skating has gone to an extreme and now, IMO, it needs to find a happy balance. Not sure Vincent is the one to do that. Hopefully I'm wrong.
I think some of you are seriously underrating presentation and agree with El (Elle :agree
that it isn't just something you learn. I think Max is a perfect example of someone with mad technical skills and still trying to find that magic program for his artistic development. Men's figure skating has gone to an extreme and now, IMO, it needs to find a happy balance. Not sure Vincent is the one to do that. Hopefully I'm wrong.
