2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[bekalc]

I don't know if I think Vincent is going to be a big star. He needs to develop some more.

As for the artistry is innate gift. I have seen far to many skaters dramatically improve for me to buy its just an innate gift. Yes, there's people it comes easier than others and yes things like dance classes are needed. But some people need time to grow in their appreciation of music, to get use to performing to large crowds. And also develop some life experience. I seem to recall Mao fans talking about how Tatianna would tell Mao that she needed to fall in love to grow in her artistic expression.. Musical appreciate can grow as well. In grammar school, I was not a big fan of classical music. I went to high school joined a traditional choir (rather than just church choir for fun) and started working on classical pieces. My appreciation of music grew, and now I love classical music. So these are really young people who are still growing and learning about themselves.

In fact I was reading an article about what age should kids play piano and they said that kids need to live. That there are some pieces of piano-that cannot be played properly without life experience. Art as an expression of life.

I agree artistry has to be worked on too, things like line, stretch etc. But I also strongly feel that its something that also improves over time. When Michelle Kwan debuted at 12 at Nationals. She was not that artistic but she grew to be one.

The issue isn't that I don't care about artistry. But I also think that artistry is really subjective. For some what is good and what is not good. But even for what is good from the masters those of us who will agree is great. For example who is better Monet or Renoir? Michelanglo or Raphael?

I like beauty in skating I do. But I think its a sport first and foremost. The best skaters have both. Now if few men could do the quad, I don't necessarily have an issue with Buttle or Lyseck winning back then. I did not consider it a victory for complete skating but I didn't have an issue.


But far too many men are doing it, and you have so many that are providing beautiful skating-and quads that I think its needed now.

I also think it takes the most work of all to be a complete skater. To be great at all aspects of the sport a good jumper and an artist. Said person may not ever be the best of the best jumpers or the bestest of the best artists. But for me its the combination of the two that takes the sport to its highest plane.

Right now for me its both quads and artistry.

As for well Jason was injured, so that's why he doesn't have a quad. I am sorry but I will believe someone has the quad when I see them land them. If Jason was getting ratified quads in the past, I wouldn't have any concerns but he's not. He could get them and he couldn't but Brown fans acting like its easy or guarantee or engaging in my mind in really wishful thinking. And wishful thinking is fine for fans.

It is but to question those of us who are thinking more realistically on this. And are mainly questioning Jason's selection because he did not place top two in nationals and the other guy is showing more potential technically is unfair.


Now who I would want to see in a show between Zhou and Brown is no contest it is Brown. But as show and competition are two very different things.

I have seen far far far more cases in this sport of young skaters with good jumps and solid basics becoming beautiful artists on the ice. Than I have seen beautiful artists becoming great jumpers. It's why I am skeptical.

 

[el henry]

So happy to report that Jordan Moeller took silver at the Challenge Cup - not perfect, but for his first international competition back after what could have been a career-ending injury: great job, Jordan!

Jordan!

What a courageous comeback from a serious injury! As well as such a lyrical skater.:luv17: as far as I'm concerned, representing everything that is admirable about skating and sport in general.:agree:

 

[Mrs. P]

Whole post

As I said numerous times, I acknowledge the skepticism. I get it. I have tried to read every post you've written regarding this topic with an open mind and try to see where you're coming from.

However, I hope that you will acknowledge that people have valid, factual reasons that the jumps will come around for Jason too. It seems that your worldview that it's quote, unquote more likely that a jumper will become an artist, rather than the other way around paints skaters into a corner. There is a wide spectrum between "show skater" and "Olympic Gold medalist." I happen to think that Jason will continue to have a respectable competitive career. And obviously, for their reasons, USFS does too. You may disagree, but that doesn't mean the people who think he can still be on the competitive side of things have a less valid view.

Nobody said the quad was easy, I certainly didn't. But just because it takes a while to get something, doesn't mean that person will NEVER get it. The point that many folks explained about Jason is that he was ON THE CUSP of getting it. Yes, the quad he landed at Skate America was < however, it was considerable progress from ever other quad attempt up to that point. Again, your skepticism is understandable, however, again, this doesn't negate that people have valid, logical, reasons to think the quad will come-- it's not just wistful thinking. The quad isn't easy, but Jason is clearly driven and has been willing to put the work in.

Honestly, if Jason wanted to quit now and just do show skating, he could. He is popular enough to get on SOI and he probably could get gigs in Japan and Europe through his network of contacts. But clearly he doesn't think he's done yet, so I'm going to just wait and see where he goes from there.

 

[bekalc]

As I said numerous times, I acknowledge the skepticism. I get it. I have tried to read every post you've written regarding this topic with an open mind and try to see where you're coming from.

However, I hope that you will acknowledge that people have valid, factual reasons that the jumps will come around for Jason too. It seems that your worldview that it's quote, unquote more likely that a jumper will become an artist, rather than the other way around paints skaters into a corner. There is a wide spectrum between "show skater" and "Olympic Gold medalist." I happen to think that Jason will continue to have a respectable competitive career. And obviously, for their reasons, USFS does too. You may disagree, but that doesn't mean the people who think he can still be on the competitive side of things have a less valid view.

Nobody said the quad was easy, I certainly didn't. But just because it takes a while to get something, doesn't mean that person will NEVER get it. The point that many folks explained about Jason is that he was ON THE CUSP of getting it. Yes, the quad he landed at Skate America was < however, it was considerable progress from ever other quad attempt up to that point. Again, your skepticism is understandable, however, again, this doesn't negate that people have valid, logical, reasons to think the quad will come-- it's not just wistful thinking. The quad isn't easy, but Jason is clearly driven and has been willing to put the work in.

Honestly, if Jason wanted to quit now and just do show skating, he could. He is popular enough to get on SOI and he probably could get gigs in Japan and Europe through his network of contacts. But clearly he doesn't think he's done yet, so I'm going to just wait and see where he goes from there.

I have just seen to many people say they have things in practice. And never get it consistent or comfortable. Adam Rippon is one. He was working on the quad for how long now? Or Johnny Weir. I don't buy that this is just the issue of hard work. There are some people no matter how hard they work will never be able to have triples. And some are the same with quads.

The older he gets the less likely I see. And the fact that's he's get injured trying it increases my doubts. NOT because I blame him for being injured but because I think the injuries may be his body saying NO. Its his choice. And I don't resent him skating but I question giving him the spot.

 

[Mrs. P]

I have just seen to many people say they have things in practice. And never get it consistent or comfortable. Adam Rippon is one. He was working on the quad for how long now? Or Johnny Weir. I don't buy that this is just the issue of hard work. There are some people no matter how hard they work will never be able to have triples. And some are the same with quads.

The older he gets the less likely I see. And the fact that's he's get injured trying it increases my doubts. NOT because I blame him for being injured but because I think the injuries may be his body saying NO. Its his choice. And I don't resent him skating but I question giving him the spot.

I guess we'll see in a few weeks.

 

[formersk8ter]

I think most FS fans like Jason... what's not to like? He's likeable, upbeat and skates beautifully.

But, as much as any of us appreciate Jason for what he brings to the ice, it's what he doesn't bring that makes him a non contender for a worlds or Olympic podium. Sure, we're all rooting for him to become consistent with that somewhat elusive quad toe loop but, even then, it would take a lot more than that for him to crack into the top tier, competitively. And here's why I think that's fair...

Let's say we're talking about a novice event, where the top competitors are perfoming all (or most) triple jumps successfully. Would it be fair for a skater with only doubles, a telegraphed and inconsistent double axel, and who struggles with a triple toe loop, to be considered in the same league as the others, even if that skater had a beautiful presence on the ice?

No. Every level of competition has a certain athletic standard in order to be top tier, and it is insulting to those who are working their butts off and producing superior athletic results, to expect otherwise. Multiple quads are now the standard for a senior men's podium contender.

Jason is a wonderful skater, but he is not even the most outstanding in the PCS department. While Jason may, arguably, be the best spinner, Chan is the master of skating skills, Hanyu has great transitions, Shoma has better choreography and skating skills (and interpretation, IMO)... even Fernandez, Denis Ten and Misha Ge have, at times, a certain charismatic and/or intensity of performance quality that Jason lacks.

Of course, artistry is subjective. Landing multiple clean quadruple jumps is not.

The fact that Jason may still be able to crack the top 10 at worlds is a testament to the special qualities that he does have. I wish him well.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think most FS fans like Jason... what's not to like? He's likeable, upbeat and skates beautifully.

But, as much as any of us appreciate Jason for what he brings to the ice, it's what he doesn't bring that makes him a non contender for a worlds or Olympic podium. Sure, we're all rooting for him to become consistent with that somewhat elusive quad toe loop but, even then, it would take a lot more than that for him to crack into the top tier, competitively. And here's why I think that's fair...

Let's say we're talking about a novice event, where the top competitors are perfoming all (or most) triple jumps successfully. Would it be fair for a skater with only doubles, a telegraphed and inconsistent double axel, and who struggles with a triple toe loop, to be considered in the same league as the others, even if that skater had a beautiful presence on the ice?

No. Every level of competition has a certain athletic standard in order to be top tier, and it is insulting to those who are working their butts off and producing superior athletic results, to expect otherwise. Multiple quads are now the standard for a senior men's podium contender.

Jason is a wonderful skater, but he is not even the most outstanding in the PCS department. While Jason may, arguably, be the best spinner, Chan is the master of skating skills, Hanyu has great transitions, Shoma has better choreography and skating skills (and interpretation, IMO)... even Fernandez, Denis Ten and Misha Ge have, at times, a certain charismatic and/or intensity of performance quality that Jason lacks.

Of course, artistry is subjective. Landing multiple clean quadruple jumps is not.

The fact that Jason may still be able to crack the top 10 at worlds is a testament to the special qualities that he does have. I wish him well.

Don't really dispute most of the points you mention above -- though I do think his steps/spins are among the best, if not the best. At 4CC, he did score the highest in points overall for all non-jump elements out of everyone. He was by far the best spinner and he was second in step sequences-- he was behind Patrick in ChSq and Shoma in the StSq, by 0.1 in both cases. I would disagree that he lacks performance quality or charisma -- I think he does stand out in that area and that's why he gets the PCS scores he does get. I do think the judges do tie technical difficulty with the PCS score; I don't think people have to worry that some 3-4 quad skater is going to be deprived of a higher placement at Worlds relative to Jason because of his PCS scores (Now whether you agree with that is a whole other topic, but I'm not going there right now).

As I said, there's a wide spectrum between OGM and show skater. The problem is that people want to pin him in one or the other. Is he going to get on the world podium if everyone skates clean? No. Even in my best case scenario, I've placed him sixth (basically behind Yuzu, Nathan, Shoma, Boyang, Patrick). However, the debate doesn't really rest for that -- Nathan's the medal contender at this point -- but rather is whether Jason is competitive enough now -- and in the future -- for USFS to invest in him or to extend opportunities, i.e. leapfrog the silver medalist Vincent Zhou and put him on the worlds team. Some say yes, some say no. I personally didn't care one way or the other. As a fan of his skating, would I like to see him there? Of course. Just like I'm looking forward to a number of other skaters there including those who are medal contenders and those who aren't. Would have I have expressed outrage if Vincent been chosen instead? Nope.

The other point of contention seems to be over whether Jason has more development coming or whether he's plateaued. If you believe the latter, than you think opportunities are wasted on him. That seems to be the crux of the discussion.

 

[SnowWhite]

Don't really dispute most of the points you mention above -- though I do think his steps/spins are among the best, if not the best. At 4CC, he did score the highest in points overall for all non-jump elements out of everyone. He was by far the best spinner and he was second in step sequences-- he was behind Patrick in ChSq and Shoma in the StSq, by 0.1 in both cases. I would disagree that he lacks performance quality or charisma -- I think he does stand out in that area and that's why he gets the PCS scores he does get. I do think the judges do tie technical difficulty with the PCS score; I don't think people have to worry that some 3-4 quad skater is going to be deprived of a higher placement at Worlds relative to Jason because of his PCS scores (Now whether you agree with that is a whole other topic, but I'm not going there right now).

As I said, there's a wide spectrum between OGM and show skater. The problem is that people want to pin him in one or the other. Is he going to get on the world podium if everyone skates clean? No. Even in my best case scenario, I've placed him sixth (basically behind Yuzu, Nathan, Shoma, Boyang, Patrick). However, the debate doesn't really rest for that -- Nathan's the medal contender at this point -- but rather is whether Jason is competitive enough now -- and in the future -- for USFS to invest in him or to extend opportunities, i.e. leapfrog the silver medalist Vincent Zhou and put him on the worlds team. Some say yes, some say no. I personally didn't care one way or the other. As a fan of his skating, would I like to see him there? Of course. Just like I'm looking forward to a number of other skaters there including those who are medal contenders and those who aren't. Would have I have expressed outrage if Vincent been chosen instead? Nope.

The other point of contention seems to be over whether Jason has more development coming or whether he's plateaued. If you believe the latter, than you think opportunities are wasted on him. That seems to be the crux of the discussion.

Don't disagree with any of this and honestly although I hope the US gets three men's spots because I like a lot of those men, I'm not so invested in it as a lot of people here seem to be.

One thing though, what about Javi? I'm pretty sure he's not going to be 7th or lower.

 

[Mrs. P]

Don't disagree with any of this and honestly although I hope the US gets three men's spots because I like a lot of those men, I'm not so invested in it as a lot of people here seem to be.

One thing though, what about Javi? I'm pretty sure he's not going to be 7th or lower.

Ugh, yeah -- I didn't mean to forget him at all. :/. Sorry Javi fans. I think my best case scenario had him beating Boyang, since Jason's beaten him before. Though I've come to like Boyang a lot, so I'm not necessarily gunning for that scenario.

 

[SnowWhite]

Ugh, yeah -- I didn't mean to forget him at all. :/. Sorry Javi fans. I think my best case scenario had him beating Boyang, since Jason's beaten him before. Though I've come to like Boyang a lot, so I'm not necessarily gunning for that scenario.

I figured you'd probably just forgotten. I agree that beating Boyang is probably the most likely of those guys.

 

[Tavi...]

I think most FS fans like Jason... what's not to like? He's likeable, upbeat and skates beautifully.

But, as much as any of us appreciate Jason for what he brings to the ice, it's what he doesn't bring that makes him a non contender for a worlds or Olympic podium. Sure, we're all rooting for him to become consistent with that somewhat elusive quad toe loop but, even then, it would take a lot more than that for him to crack into the top tier, competitively. And here's why I think that's fair...

Let's say we're talking about a novice event, where the top competitors are perfoming all (or most) triple jumps successfully. Would it be fair for a skater with only doubles, a telegraphed and inconsistent double axel, and who struggles with a triple toe loop, to be considered in the same league as the others, even if that skater had a beautiful presence on the ice?

No. Every level of competition has a certain athletic standard in order to be top tier, and it is insulting to those who are working their butts off and producing superior athletic results, to expect otherwise. Multiple quads are now the standard for a senior men's podium contender.

Jason is a wonderful skater, but he is not even the most outstanding in the PCS department. While Jason may, arguably, be the best spinner, Chan is the master of skating skills, Hanyu has great transitions, Shoma has better choreography and skating skills (and interpretation, IMO)... even Fernandez, Denis Ten and Misha Ge have, at times, a certain charismatic and/or intensity of performance quality that Jason lacks.

Of course, artistry is subjective. Landing multiple clean quadruple jumps is not.

The fact that Jason may still be able to crack the top 10 at worlds is a testament to the special qualities that he does have. I wish him well.

Oy. For someone who thinks Jason is a "wonderful skater" with "special qualities," you seem to have a hard time articulating exactly what those qualities are; apparently they're not of nearly as much value to you as the quads, charisma, and components he's supposedly missing. And really nice of you to imply that he doesn't work his butt off and to compare him to a novice level skater with an inconsistent and telegraphed double axel.

 

[formersk8ter]

Oy. For someone who thinks Jason is a "wonderful skater" with "special qualities," you seem to have a hard time articulating exactly what those qualities are; apparently they're not of nearly as much value to you as the quads, charisma, and components he's supposedly missing. And really nice of you to imply that he doesn't work his butt off and to compare him to a novice level skater with an inconsistent and telegraphed double axel.

All elite skaters work their butts off. Some work harder and have more competitive drive than others.

As for your last sentence, I was making a point. As a senior level competitor, Jason has an inconsistent and telegraphed triple axel. That is not an opinion, it is a fact.

Jason can thank his PCS for placing as well as he does, he has worked hard on it, and he is rewarded very well for it. Certainly far better than any other competitor with similar technical ability to his. There are many skaters I find wonderful, despite their not having top tier competitive content. In the men's event alone, I can name Julian Zhi Jie Yee, Misha Ge, Shotaro Omori, Timothy Dolensky, Jinseo Kim, Sean Rabbitt and more. For me, Jason is one of those skaters and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Mrs. P]

As for your last sentence, I was making a point. As a senior level competitor, Jason has an inconsistent and telegraphed triple axel. That is not an opinion, it is a fact.

He's been oddly inconsistent at being inconsistent, LOL. He's missed both his 3A attempts in the SP at Nationals and 4CC, but he got all four 3As (with positive GOE, natch) in the free skate. I do get that his consistency on the 3A matters more since he hasn't attempted the quad yet.

FWIW, he did hit all his 3As at both his senior Bs and Skate America. NHK, he had the 3A in the SP, but missed both of them in the FS -- but we know now that was likely a result of the injury. Or maybe not.

 

[el henry]

Definitions sure do differ.

For me, skaters who are "top tier" are those having produced/capable of "five Toller" skates:
Jason, Misha, Julian are among them.

What does not define "top tier": jumps, jumps, jumps, medals, medals, medals, records, records, records. (Wait a sec while I go see how many Worlds and Olys Toller won. Hold on...I'm still looking ....just a few more seconds....) Nope, not a factor.

Where *my* top tier skaters should skate: right here in competitive skating, where they belong. Where they can earn Tollers.

And everyone else can watch the skaters you consider top tier right along with them.

 

[karne]

Oy. For someone who thinks Jason is a "wonderful skater" with "special qualities," you seem to have a hard time articulating exactly what those qualities are; apparently they're not of nearly as much value to you as the quads, charisma, and components he's supposedly missing. And really nice of you to imply that he doesn't work his butt off and to compare him to a novice level skater with an inconsistent and telegraphed double axel.

Looks like Jason-bashing is the new Max-bashing. Yay, really looking forward to having both of those as the new "thing". :sarcasm:

Definitions sure do differ.

For me, skaters who are "top tier" are those having produced/capable of "five Toller" skates:
Jason, Misha, Julian are among them.

What does not define "top tier": jumps, jumps, jumps, medals, medals, medals, records, records, records. (Wait a sec while I go see how many Worlds and Olys Toller won. Hold on...I'm still looking ....just a few more seconds....) Nope, not a factor.

Where *my* top tier skaters should skate: right here in competitive skating, where they belong. Where they can earn Tollers.

And everyone else can watch the skaters you consider top tier right along with them.

No, el henry, no. Some skaters are born with it. Some work their backsides off to try and achieve it and never get the credit they deserve for that work. But just because a skater is born with that innate gift does NOT make them automatically superior or a better skater than a skater who was born without it and is trying to achieve it through work alone!

 

[SnowWhite]

Looks like Jason-bashing is the new Max-bashing. Yay, really looking forward to having both of those as the new "thing". :sarcasm:



No, el henry, no. Some skaters are born with it. Some work their backsides off to try and achieve it and never get the credit they deserve for that work. But just because a skater is born with that innate gift does NOT make them automatically superior or a better skater than a skater who was born without it and is trying to achieve it through work alone!

But you are allowed to have a preference for the skater who is better at it, regardless of how easily it came to them, because that is something you really like in skaters. It doesn't mean you don't appreciate the work other skaters put in. If I was obsessed with spins and they mattered more to me than anything else just because I liked them personally, not because I thought they should be worth the most or anything and I liked really flexible skaters the best, well everyone can work on flexibility but some will always be more flexible than others. I'm allowed to like their spins best. It's an opinion not a judgement of worth. El Henry said that for her, that type of skater is top tier and that everyone else can have there own definition. You don't have to agree, but she's allowed to think that. It's not an attack on any skater

And FYI if that was about Max, I really like him. I like his skating and he seems like just about the sweetest human alive from interviews I've heard. I'd love to see him on the Olympic team next season.

 

[Ice Dance]

well everyone can work on flexibility.

No, not everyone can. I liked your answer, but I do disagree on this point. I think over the years that we have seen enough men have to give up their extreme flexibility elements to know that as men grow older, many of them cannot maintain those positions and remain healthy.

 

[concorde]

Hmmm . . . Which is true?

The pro-artists are saying that artists are born with those special skills and can learn the jumps. Technicians cannot learn artistry.

But the pro-technicians say jumpers are inmately born with the jumping skills and can learn the artistry. Artists cannot learn the jumps.

My money is on the technicians.

From what I have heard, USGF has invested alot on Jason getting the jumps amd we really have not seen it pay off - and that was pre-injury.

Men's quads have been around for about 10 years so they are nothing new. For men, it seems the sport has been reset and quads are nee norm if you want to hit the top tier.

 

[Tavi...]

All elite skaters work their butts off. Some work harder and have more competitive drive than others.

As for your last sentence, I was making a point. As a senior level competitor, Jason has an inconsistent and telegraphed triple axel. That is not an opinion, it is a fact.

Jason can thank his PCS for placing as well as he does, he has worked hard on it, and he is rewarded very well for it. Certainly far better than any other competitor with similar technical ability to his. There are many skaters I find wonderful, despite their not having top tier competitive content. In the men's event alone, I can name Julian Zhi Jie Yee, Misha Ge, Shotaro Omori, Timothy Dolensky, Jinseo Kim, Sean Rabbitt and more. For me, Jason is one of those skaters and there's nothing wrong with that.

You know, it's really tiresome to hear the same thing over and over: Jason doesn't have a quad so he's not competitive for a World/Olympic medal. Is there anyone who doesn't already know that? He knows it. His team knows it. His fans know it.

You say that most FS fans like Jason, but quite honestly, this thread and others are full of people bashing him lately, stating authoritatively that it's too late for him to get a quad, that even if he does get one it won't be enough and he'll never get more than one, that he won't recover by Worlds, that Vincent's score at Bavarian Open was 2 points higher than Jason's scores at 4CC (as if that means anything), that Vincent, not Jason should be sent to Worlds, and oh by the way, that he and / or Riverdance are highly overrated. I mean enough already.

For all of these posters, the lack of a quad seems to = what he does is easy, i.e., that he's not working his butt off out there or in training. But there's a reason why you don't see other guys doing the RFO spiral Jason does near the end of his FS at 4CC: because it's hard, like a lot of stuff he does that no one else is doing.

As to his triple axel, you might look at his protocols for the competitions where he wasn't injured or recovering from injury this year: Lombardia, SLC, and Skate America. Out of 9 attempts, he popped one; he landed the others with plus GOE of 1.70, 0.80, 1.60, 1.00, 1.60, 2.00, 1.57, 0.43 (average = 1.55).

Even in comps where he was injured / still recovering (NHK, Nats, 4CC) he still landed the 3A in 5 out of 9 attempts, with average GOE for the landed jumps of 0.94. So for the entire season, he's landed 13/18, or 72%, of the 3As attempted at Nats / in international competition, with average overall GOE of 1.19. Telegraphed or not, he's clearly doing something right.

 

[SnowWhite]

No, not everyone can. I liked your answer, but I do disagree on this point. I think over the years that we have seen enough men have to give up their extreme flexibility elements to know that as men grow older, many of them cannot maintain those positions and remain healthy.

I meant that anyone can improve their flexibility to a point, which was why I said some will always be more flexible than others. I see how that could be unclear.