2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[Mrs. P]

Hmmm . . . Which is true?

The pro-artists are saying that artists are born with those special skills and can learn the jumps. Technicians cannot learn artistry.

But the pro-technicians say jumpers are inmately born with the jumping skills and can learn the artistry. Artists cannot learn the jumps.

My money is on the technicians.

From what I have heard, USGF has invested alot on Jason getting the jumps amd we really have not seen it pay off - and that was pre-injury.

Men's quads have been around for about 10 years so they are nothing new. For men, it seems the sport has been reset and quads are nee norm if you want to hit the top tier.

Neither is a universal truth -- it depends on the skater. Again, I don't like putting skaters into corner, nor do I like put into a corner as a figure skating fan.

I like Jason Brown and Boyang Jin this season. I like Boyang 4Z the best, and everything positive about Jason has been said in this thread, I've seen both work on their respectful weaknesses and I believe both will follow through I'm the long run. Why? Not cause they are one category or another, because they have shown a willingness to make improvements in the past and have shown improvements in the past. It may not always translate to scores, but I can see it.

Also liking both a quote, unquote an artist and a jumper? Doesn't make it easy to put me in the pro-artist or pro-technician category. Just put me in "pro-human"

 

[concorde]

Since this is a sport and for the sport to evolve, I think top tier athletes need to be pushing envelope. If it were not for those pushing the envelope years ago, we'd only be watching the men doing single jumps and no ladies.

But having said that, my favorite US man is Adam.

 

[Mrs. P]

You know, it's really tiresome to hear the same thing over and over: Jason doesn't have a quad so he's not competitive for a World/Olympic medal. Is there anyone who doesn't already know that? He knows it. His team knows it. His fans know it.

You say that most FS fans like Jason, but quite honestly, this thread and others are full of people bashing him lately, stating authoritatively that it's too late for him to get a quad, that even if he does get one it won't be enough and he'll never get more than one, that he won't recover by Worlds, that Vincent's score at Bavarian Open was 2 points higher than Jason's scores at 4CC (as if that means anything), that Vincent, not Jason should be sent to Worlds, and oh by the way, that he and / or Riverdance are highly overrated. I mean enough already.

For all of these posters, the lack of a quad seems to = what he does is easy, i.e., that he's not working his butt off out there or in training. But there's a reason why you don't see other guys doing the RFO spiral Jason does near the end of his FS at 4CC: because it's hard, like a lot of stuff he does that no one else is doing.

As to his triple axel, you might look at his protocols for the competitions where he wasn't injured or recovering from injury this year: Lombardia, SLC, and Skate America. Out of 9 attempts, he popped one; he landed the others with plus GOE of 1.70, 0.80, 1.60, 1.00, 1.60, 2.00, 1.57, 0.43 (average = 1.55).

Even in comps where he was injured / still recovering (NHK, Nats, 4CC) he still landed the 3A in 5 out of 9 attempts, with average GOE for the landed jumps of 0.94. So for the entire season, he's landed 13/18, or 72%, of the 3As attempted at Nats / in international competition, with average overall GOE of 1.19. Telegraphed or not, he's clearly doing something right.

I don't think a select number of SUPER vocal people on this thread -- and in the forum -- speak for the general public. We have 31k members on Golden Skate, with the most online at any given time just over 3,300. I think there's a lot of people who do like Jason who don't really feel a deep need to go out of their way to defend him or say anything. So I agree with the sentiment that he's well-liked and respected as a skater. It's the old adage, you'll hear more from people who find something wrong than someone who finds something right anyway.

I do think the Jason's 3A, right or wrong, will get an extreme amount of scrutiny because of the fact that the quad isn't fully there yet, and for now, non-existent in competition. People are going to give a break on Nathan's 3A, namely cause he's doing 4 different quads. I do miss some of the cool transitions that Jason did on the 3A (like the ones at 2015 Worlds, for example) and I hope that comes back sometime.

 

[Tavi...]

I don't think a select number of SUPER vocal people on this thread -- and in the forum -- speak for the general public. We have 31k members on Golden Skate, with the most online at any given time just over 3,300. I think there's a lot of people who do like Jason who don't really feel a deep need to go out of their way to defend him or say anything. So I agree with the sentiment that he's well-liked and respected as a skater. It's the old adage, you'll hear more from people who find something wrong than someone who finds something right anyway.

I do think the Jason's 3A, right or wrong, will get an extreme amount of scrutiny because of the fact that the quad isn't fully there yet, and for now, non-existent in competition. People are going to give a break on Nathan's 3A, namely cause he's doing 4 different quads. I do miss some of the cool transitions that Jason did on the 3A (like the ones at 2015 Worlds, for example) and I hope that comes back sometime.

Thank you for always being the voice of reason!

 

[el henry]

My inclination to jump in and defend viewpoints/skaters/is an occupational hazard: and since I now am largely retired from the occupation, GS gets the "hazard" part. And it is also an occupational hazard to parse words, so here goes:

Evolve/improve/better: For me, that sport evolves as pioneers like Toller caused it to evolve: through artistry, performance, spins, steps. So using the word "evolve" to describe more jumps and more rotated jumps, for me, is inaccurate. If a poster likes more jumping, hey, I've lived long enough not to tell folks what they can and cannot like. I'm not a *total* idiot. But I will not agree that it is the only way to evolve.

Top tier, best, competitive: "Winning" may equal "best" or "top tier" for some posters. It does not for me. Exhibit One: well, I will not repeat his name again. And figure skating fans have been arguing about judges, since, well, when was the Peloponnesian war? So again, a poster may value medals and winning above all else. Cool. But I won't agree that the judges got it right.

Show skating: I just feel this term is used to dis skaters like Jason, oh, only "show" skating, leave the "big boys" to compete. Let the big boys compete, and let the Jasons compete too. The rink is big enough for both of them.

And I will never agree that artistry is "easier" to master than tech. Otherwise, why were skaters like Toller and John Curry so few and far between? But this is an argument that will never be resolved. It's like chocolate versus vanilla.

Although I guess increasing a thread count with arguments that can't be "won" could be a good thing.

 

[formersk8ter]

You know, it's really tiresome to hear the same thing over and over: Jason doesn't have a quad so he's not competitive for a World/Olympic medal. (etc.)

I mean enough already.

It is no less tiresome being constantly scolded by "fan"atical posters every time anything critical is said about their favorite skaters. But it is, indeed, your right to do so.

Last I checked, this was a discussion thread, not a fan thread (which, of course, exists in another area of this forum).

 

[Mrs. P]

Somewhat relevant information (via Jason's fan fest thread) - Jason is in Cathedral City, Calif. (i.e. Palm Springs area) training with Frank Carroll.

Gracie Gold is no longer training with Frank. Denis Ten is basically with Morozov full-time; Daisuke Murakami and Scott Dyer are done for the season. That mean Frank has plenty of time for Jason.

 

[karne]

You know, it's really tiresome to hear the same thing over and over: Jason doesn't have a quad so he's not competitive for a World/Olympic medal.

But it's also tiresome to hear the opposite over and over: Max isn't artistic enough. He should be true to himself. No, wait, that's not how ~I~ picture him, he should be true to the preconception that ~I~ have of him and not what he really wants to be or do. It's not all about the jumps - oh wait, unless you're a cute kid just busted on to the scene, then it's ALL about the jumps...

 

[Tavi...]

It is no less tiresome being constantly scolded by "fan"atical posters every time anything critical is said about their favorite skaters. But it is, indeed, your right to do so.

Last I checked, this was a discussion thread, not a fan thread (which, of course, exists in another area of this forum).

Absolutely true, it's not a fan thread, but there's discussion and there's the endless repetition of the stuff I mentioned above, which as you may have noticed, I'm kind of on my last nerve about. To be fair, I dont think you can say I've "endlessly scolded" you - I mean as far as I'm aware we've only exchanged two posts. However, to be equally fair, you only just started posting in this thread and aren't responsible for what others said before you, so I apologize for reacting so strongly.

 

[Icey]

Somewhat relevant information (via Jason's fan fest thread) - Jason is in Cathedral City, Calif. (i.e. Palm Springs area) training with Frank Carroll.

Gracie Gold is no longer training with Frank. Denis Ten is basically with Morozov full-time; Daisuke Murakami and Scott Dyer are done for the season. That mean Frank has plenty of time for Jason.

Is that a political strategy, because I can't see Frank as being able to help Jason in the areas where he needs help?

 

[StitchMonkey]

Is that a political strategy, because I can't see Frank as being able to help Jason in the areas where he needs help?

More of a Kori is in Europe for Jordan's recent competition, so may as well train a few days with Frank who is open while Kori is busy.... also I think he may have gone to the Oscars while out there.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BQ_2kSxgP1K/

 

[karne]

Is that a political strategy, because I can't see Frank as being able to help Jason in the areas where he needs help?

Are you kidding? Jason has had visibly more power and speed in recent times and his jumps looked fantastic pre-injury. Frank, as much as I'm not a fan, obviously DID help Jason quite a lot last time.

 

[el henry]

It is no less tiresome being constantly scolded by "fan"atical posters every time anything critical is said about their favorite skaters. But it is, indeed, your right to do so.

Last I checked, this was a discussion thread, not a fan thread (which, of course, exists in another area of this forum).

Which is why discussions contain two viewpoints at least, no?

Including those of us who hold the view that artistry can't be learned as an afterthought, higher and better jumps is not the be-all and end-all of skating, and that even skaters who excel on artistry and not jumps should be in the competitive mix.

And if some want to dismiss that opinion as the deluded rantings of an uber, well, I am an uber: of the one and only Toller Cranston, may he now skate in other spheres. As wrong or as right as my opinions may be, I am not convinced that uberdom diminishes my opinion.

 

[TontoK]

Since this is a sport and for the sport to evolve, I think top tier athletes need to be pushing envelope. If it were not for those pushing the envelope years ago, we'd only be watching the men doing single jumps and no ladies.

But having said that, my favorite US man is Adam.

I agree with what you have said, but I also note that there is more than one type of envelope to be pushed.

I've grown cold on Jason, but I think it must be acknowledged that he has pushed and changed the sport, in some ways as influentially as the new wave of athletic jumpers.

If we don't see Jason-esque transitions into and out of jumps, some now claim that a program "has no transitions." In fact, all programs have transitions, and they would be perfectly fine 5 or 6 years ago. But because Jason pushed that boundary, people don't tolerate mediocrity in this area any more than they do substandard jumps.

On another thread, some have called T & D's Bolero overrated. This is fine, people have opinions. I can tolerate dissent on anything other than Urmanov's programs.

But, speaking as an old geezer who followed the sport closely at that time, I promise you it wasn't just innovative - it was groundbreaking. Earth-shattering. It pushed the sport in a completely different direction. And what made it so unique had nothing to do with the technical elements.

 

[el henry]

....
On another thread, some have called T & D's Bolero overrated. This is fine, people have opinions. I can tolerate dissent on anything other than Urmanov's programs.

But, speaking as an old geezer who followed the sport closely at that time, I promise you it wasn't just innovative - it was groundbreaking. Earth-shattering. It pushed the sport in a completely different direction. And what made it so unique had nothing to do with the technical elements.

Completely OT, but can you *believe* that folks don't understand the importance of T&D's Bolero? I mean, that they just don't get it, and don't seem to want to get it?

These young 'uns...

topic:

 

[TontoK]

Completely OT, but can you *believe* that folks don't understand the importance of T&D's Bolero? I mean, that they just don't get it, and don't seem to want to get it?

These young 'uns...

topic:

Well, it is a bit of a head scratcher, but people who didn't live through it see it as an old-fashioned program with little difficulty compared to today's programs. The point of dragging that discussion over here is to push back on the misguided belief that the only way the sport can advance is through harder jumps, crazier throws, etc.

I like the daring jumps, especially from the men, but the sport has gotten better and more modern in other ways, too.

 

[karne]

The point of dragging that discussion over here is to push back on the misguided belief that the only way the sport can advance is through harder jumps, crazier throws, etc.

But it does not mean that skaters who do not or cannot push the sport in ways other than jumps or throws are somehow lesser than those who are pushing it in that way.

 

[Mrs. P]

But it does not mean that skaters who do not or cannot push the sport in ways other than jumps or throws are somehow lesser than those who are pushing it in that way.

Did TontoK say those who do are "lesser"? i didn't see anything that indicated that? I actually thought his point is that there is room for all kinds to modernize and innovate the sport.

 

[ice coverage]

Adding my two cents :

Jason is fortunate to have a number of SUPER vocal (to borrow Mrs P's words ) fans who speak "early and often" in this thread -- both to celebrate Jason for positive reasons and to defend Jason when they think he needs defending.

All of which is fine -- as long as we remain mindful that this thread is not only for pro-Jason opinions and viewpoints, but also for all other opinions and viewpoints.

And mindful that Jason is hardly the only U.S. man to receive criticism to an extent that the skater's supporters find unnecessarily persistent and harsh. Jason has plenty of company. Nathan and Vincent are only the most recent examples. Max, Jeremy, Adam, etc.

Either everyone's opinions (within GS guidelines) belong in the thread or no one's opinions belong in the thread.
And "tiresome" definitely is in the eye of the beholder :yes:. Wish I had a dollar for every broken-record mantra on GS pertaining to one or more of the U.S. men ... (including my own). The mantras come from all sides.​

---

Somewhat relevant information (via Jason's fan fest thread) - Jason is in Cathedral City, Calif. (i.e. Palm Springs area) training with Frank Carroll.

Gracie Gold is no longer training with Frank. Denis Ten is basically with Morozov full-time; Daisuke Murakami and Scott Dyer are done for the season. That mean Frank has plenty of time for Jason.

Good for Jason :yay:. And I'm happy for Frank to have the pleasure of working with Jason again.

 

[SnowWhite]

Good for Jason :yay:. And I'm happy for Frank to have the pleasure of working with Jason again.

:agree2: He certainly seems like he'd be a lovely person to be around.