2017-2018 State of Russian Ice Dance

[coldblueeyes]

It's not easy to be creative, right? I'm glad that Bobrova and Soloviev don't usually recycle their lifts, however I wish Zhulin changed his agenda 'the more difficult and complicated the better'. It's not working that way anymore, he should stop. His approach is outdated, I have clearly realized it last season. And no, I'm not talking about choreography at all. And no, he's not the only one.

Well, for what's worth, Zhulin did well with B/S on their straight line lift from AK, and the rotational lift from this years' FD, but the others don't really work that well. I mean, look at the curve lift? Always so messy. And really, Montreal knows exactly where to get their money's worth of points. They are the perfect team of coaches for the Cop.

 

[bramweld]

At least they don't go dropping themself, flowers or bracelets all over the rink at the important events. They are professional enough not to do this, and that's why they're #1 and will remain there until they retire.

As for that FD? Well, that was probably their worst skate of the season :confused2: And still it was okay. Should I mention how worst skates of the season for other top Russian teams went?

The point I was trying to make is that even though they are Russia's number one team, they're not very competitive with the rest of the world. So why routinely place them in the number one position, they're really not much better than the other top 4. A botched twizzle or lift would pull them back to the pack quite easily. Just saying, they're not really impressive especially for a team thats been skating together for nearly 20 years

 

[coldblueeyes]

The point I was trying to make is that even though they are Russia's number one team, they're not very competitive with the rest of the world. So why routinely place them in the number one position, they're really not much better than the other top 4. A botched twizzle or lift would pull them back to the pack quite easily. Just saying, they're not really impressive especially for a team thats been skating together for nearly 20 years

Could, that's the key word. Hasn't happened yet.

And if the number one isn't competitive medalling in six competitions in the last season, can you imagine other teams in the top 4? Even S/B with all the love from the fed hasn't managed that, so what's left for the rest of the pack? If they were that good they would have come out on top at least once during the season.

But then again, could - key word right there. Hasn't happened yet.

 

[gmyers]

Could, that's the key word. Hasn't happened yet.

And if the number one isn't competitive medalling in six competitions in the last season, can you imagine other teams in the top 4? Even S/B with all the love from the fed hasn't managed that, so what's left for the rest of the pack? If they were that good they would have come out on top at least once during the season.

But then again, could - key word right there. Hasn't happened yet.

But this is Russia! Why are they keeping a dance team number one that does so incredibly poorly (historically speaking)? By keeping b/S number one they are saying all the other teams are worse which helps to depress their scores. Best to have allowed them to be beaten by S/b and I/k back when they were together.

Best to have an open fair competition where any team could win instead of the closed system they have now.

which kinda sucks because original movements, or rarely used movements, or original variations of common movements are quite cool.

Totally agree! But IJS is brutal!

Innovative doesn't mean difficult, not always at least. ISU made sure that simple lifts get rewarded as much as difficult 'standart' or 'recycled' ones. Look at Montreal school, they are first to see that.

Yes I wanted to say this too! Innovation and difficulty are not really acknowledged

 

[bramweld]

But this is Russia! Why are they keeping a dance team number one that does so incredibly poorly (historically speaking)? By keeping b/S number one they are saying all the other teams are worse which helps to depress their scores. Best to have allowed them to be beaten by S/b and I/k back when they were together.

Best to have an open fair competition where any team could win instead of the closed system they have now.



Totally agree! But IJS is brutal!



Yes I wanted to say this too! Innovation and difficulty are not really acknowledged

Precisely this. PCS is just phooey, hodgepodge meant to maintain the status quo. But let's face it there is little if anything that could be done to resolve that.

 

[LadyB]

But this is Russia! Why are they keeping a dance team number one that does so incredibly poorly (historically speaking)?

I agree that the Fed's wishes and choices are not always what could be a more logic approach. They certainly lack an understanding of 'flexibility' and 'innovation'.
However, B/S is still number 3 in the World Rankings. So, historically speaking, they cannot have been that poorly... Last year's doping story hit them in the middle of a really good run. I very much hope they are professional enough to keep it together, change their skating and work hard. If Zhulin can't get them into the groove for Latin, who can?
But even at their best, competition at the moment is very, very tough.

 

[coldblueeyes]

But this is Russia! Why are they keeping a dance team number one that does so incredibly poorly (historically speaking)? By keeping b/S number one they are saying all the other teams are worse which helps to depress their scores. Best to have allowed them to be beaten by S/b and I/k back when they were together.

Best to have an open fair competition where any team could win instead of the closed system they have now.

If anything, at RN last year it was pretty obvious B/S were not really being pushed to run away with the competition. I can't find the breakdown of the scores per judge, but half of them put S/B over B/S, and look at what happened in Euros and Worlds? What would even accomplish pushing a team that's not going to garner better results out of Russia? There's not really a single team in Russia that managed to beat their scores or consistency in competition, unless you want to count Tallinn Trophy, but we all know how that panned that for all the teams competing there - some of them scored 10-15 points less at Euros/Worlds.

What arguments there is to 'push' another team?

Also, just because B/S placed above the other Russians, there's no reason for the other teams to keep making mistakes in competition.

 

[bramweld]

If anything, at RN last year it was pretty obvious B/S were not really being pushed to run away with the competition. I can't find the breakdown of the scores per judge, but half of them put S/B over B/S, and look at what happened in Euros and Worlds? What would even accomplish pushing a team that's not going to garner better results out of Russia? There's not really a single team in Russia that managed to beat their scores or consistency in competition, unless you want to count Tallinn Trophy, but we all know how that panned that for all the teams competing there - some of them scored 10-15 points less at Euros/Worlds.

What arguments there is to 'push' another team?

Also, just because B/S placed above the other Russians, there's no reason for the other teams to keep making mistakes in competition.

The point is clean or not I honestly don't get their high scores, anywhere. They have really nothing special about them, they are hard workers and that's pretty much what shows. The most interesting thing they've done all season is their latin gala. How do such sloppy skaters having such poor posture score the points that they do?

 

[coldblueeyes]

The point is clean or not I honestly don't get their high scores, anywhere. They have really nothing special about them, they are hard workers and that's pretty much what shows. The most interesting thing they've done all season is their latin gala. How do such sloppy skaters having such poor posture score the points that they do?

It's not like someone is beating the judges in the head for them to give these scores, I guess. But clearly you'll see what you want to see. They are Russia's number one inside and outside the country, without a single doubt. If they are so bad, it really speaks of the state of the other teams, then.

 

[Abraxis12345]

B&S are a team that comes across much better live than on a screen. They have excellent ice coverage and presence and solid technique.

 

[Snow63]

I love innovative, aesthetic lifts. I also love when teams tackle really tough lifts that may take a while to perfect.

The problem with a Code of Points system is that it rarely anticipates creativity. So teams can come up with a very tough, original lift & not get credit for it unless it checks the boxes already within the system. (This is something I miss about 6.0. When you came up with something new, the system was open enough to reward it without having to predict the future).

I don't agree with rewarding lifts just based on originality though. The problem with rewarding innovative/original easy lifts in a Code of Points system is that they lose their uniqueness in a heartbeat. Pretty soon everyone uses them or a variation of them.

And then the code has to be rewritten again.

When a lift looks hard and no one poaches it, it's probably because the lift is hard. When everyone poaches it, well, you know everyone has the ability to poach it.

I agree with all of your points. Especially the last one sentence. But it doesn't matter what we think, or how we think would be fair to reward the points for the lifts. It's the ISU who decides, and anyone can think whatever they want, but the changes have been made and the new rules ARE written. It's a shame really that no one except one school understands the stream of changes. More than that, ISU recommended to drop unnecessary complications and create something beautiful and non standart. The requirements allow that much more than before.

 

[Snow63]

The point is clean or not I honestly don't get their high scores, anywhere. They have really nothing special about them, they are hard workers and that's pretty much what shows. The most interesting thing they've done all season is their latin gala. How do such sloppy skaters having such poor posture score the points that they do?

Read ISU communications about skating skills, transitions etc. It will be helpful. If not, than nothing will be. You are clearly in minority in FS community.

P.S. Other teams had millions chances. Should I remind you how many competitions Bobrova/Soloviev missed last 3 years? :disapp:

 

[Mrs. P]

B&S are a team that comes across much better live than on a screen. They have excellent ice coverage and presence and solid technique.

I agree. I was a B/S borderline hater until I saw them live a few years ago.

 

[Snow63]

I agree. I was a B/S borderline hater until I saw them live a few years ago.

:angry2:

P.S. At least you see the light now

 

[Mrs. P]

:angry2:

P.S. At least you see the light now

It's a good thing you encountered me after 2012!

 

[moriel]

B/S arent my cup of tea, but then, they are judged quite consistenly across many many competitons, so i highly doubt they are terrible and recieve their scores unfairly.
They may not be brilliant, but its a solid good team with lots of experience and great work ethic.

I dont really see the same in 2 other russian teams that people discuss a lot here. Both of them had lots of opportunities, as B/S were not competing like, half of time since sochi. The #1 spot was free to whoever wanted to take it. Both S/K and I/Z had all the chances to develop into something more solid. I just dont see how a team that in 3 years didnt get ANYWHERE and didnt show pretty much any improvement - well, they were fighting for the position of 3rd russian team this season - has any chances to get anywhere on top.
Well, S/K first season was a complete disaster, but its not like they are much better right now (see Nikita and twizzles, srsly, not even trying it?)
I/Z's best program was their 14-15 Carmen SD.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Katsalapov and Sinitsina are both so beautiful but they are so unreliable. I know that there was some promise some of the time and I still like them but BOTH programs last season imo were awful! Where do they go from here?

 

[Mattieu]

Katsalapov and Sinitsina are both so beautiful but they are so unreliable. I know that there was some promise some of the time and I still like them but BOTH programs last season imo were awful! Where do they go from here?

Zhulin is more often miss than hit with his programs, so I fear for S/K and for B/S for that matter

 

[Snow63]

Zhulin is more often miss than hit with his programs, so I fear for S/K and for B/S for that matter

Then you'll be glad to know that their new FD will not be choreographed by Zhuline. Wonder how that will work out for them :scratch3:

 

[Snow63]

It's a good thing you encountered me after 2012!

I was not a massive fan myself before 2012, so no, nothing bad would have happened

P.S. By the way, I think I should PM you sometime soon, I have some really great news