2017 Ondrej Nepela Trophy Ladies SP

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If you want to discuss the skaters in a healthy, mature way, this is not the way to start your post.

I suspect that this poster appeared here before under a different nickname and was banned. Now they decided to be smarter addind sweeteners here and there but the style and their real attitude show up anyway.

Medvedeva's 80 for her best ever SP skated perfectly is not the reason for ranting. I actually hoped it would not happen as it was sort of quiet here immediately after she skated. It is outright stupid to compare her score with what skaters had years ago. One should look at the previous and this seasons. Then we see that her score is below her WR. Then we see that clean Wakaba w/o 100% backloading had 74, that Osmond without combo backloading, with a stumble and last year SP just had 75, that Zagitova with a fall had 71, that Costner without 3-3 and quite a bland program had almost 72. You want to rant about how scores are inflated these days? Welcome - you can write to ISU, submit petitions, etc. But singling out Medvedeva with repeated pointless critique is just the manifestation of personal hate.

 

[geige]

...can we talk about how good Rika looks compared to her previous competitions? 3F3T and 3Lz yay!!! < but 'tis only the beginning of the season, and I would LOVE to see her contend for an Olympic spot.

And this forum is like a broken record. I'm getting serious deja vu reading these same old arguments that go nowhere.

 

[MaiKatze]

...can we talk about how good Rika looks compared to her previous competitions? 3F3T and 3Lz yay!!! < but 'tis only the beginning of the season, and I would LOVE to see her contend for an Olympic spot.

And this forum is like a broken record. I'm getting serious deja vu reading these same old arguments that go nowhere.

I always get nervous when they take so long to get the scores out in the KnC....you can see the color drain from her face, everytime. So I'm happy if she's doing well, but she will never go to the Olympics, no matter how good she does.

 

[Elsie]

I suspect that this poster appeared here before under a different nickname and was banned. Now they decided to be smarter addind sweeteners here and there but the style and their real attitude show up anyway.

Medvedeva's 80 for her best ever SP skated perfectly is not the reason for ranting. I actually hoped it would not happen as it was sort of quiet here immediately after she skated. It is outright stupid to compare her score with what skaters had years ago. One should look at the previous and this seasons. Then we see that her score is below her WR. Then we see that clean Wakaba w/o 100% backloading had 74, that Osmond without combo backloading, with a stumble and last year SP just had 75, that Zagitova with a fall had 71, that Costner without 3-3 and quite a bland program had almost 72. You want to rant about how scores are inflated these days? Welcome - you can write to ISU, submit petitions, etc. But singling out Medvedeva with repeated pointless critique is just the manifestation of personal hate.

This is not about "singling out Medvedeva". If you think it is, that's your problem. You seem to think that any criticism on Evgenia must come from a "hater" and that this "hater" only hates Evgenia and is only here on this forum to attack her. One might as well wonder why you are always defending Medvedeva. You're obviously Russian judging by your name so that explains a lot. And I'm certainly not that "skater who got banned" and has returned under a different name, if that's what you're implying.

People need to stop seeing "hatred" in every remark that is made. There is no rule that says we cannot criticize Medvedeva (it's her blind fans who made up that rule). Just for the record, my favorite skater of all times is Maria Butyrskaya, and she's also Russian, so I'm definitely not against Russian skaters, quite the contrary. But I don't think Maria was perfect and I started a thread where I talk about her flaws and her technical problems as well as her unique style of skating.

The only point I was trying to make here is that Medvedeva got 80 for a program that doesn't deserve such a high score. There's no denying that. Also, it is perfectly normal to compare her scores to skaters who did a much more difficult technical program a couple of years ago and got a lower score nevertheless. The fact that the current system allows for skaters without the most difficult jumps such as triple axel or a quad to beat every record in the book and become "the best ever skater" in the minds of the public and "the 8th world wonder" or something, that is just wrong. In this case, the skater doesn't even have a triple lutz, and all her other jumps have problems too. Most people just don't see them because she always lands her jumps. But landing a jump and being consistent does not equal great jumping technique when the underlying technique is flawed.

The score inflation may be not Evgenia's fault, but she's the one who's getting the scores so why can't we discuss this here?

Speaking of current skaters' scores, first of all: who says I'm "ranting"? Again, you see things that aren't there. Wakaba and Osmond both have better quality jumps than Medvedeva so it's only natural their scores are in the 70s even without backloading. Kostner took many years to earn her high presentation scores, unlike Medvedeva who got hers right from the first senior competition she ever entered. This has also been discussed many times I think on this forum, and it deserves to be discussed because people have the right to know why there is only one skater named Medvedeva who never had to work hard or mature or gain experience to get those high scores while all the others had.

You see, it's not me who is singling out Medvedeva. It's the judges, and I want to know why.

 

[[email protected]]

.

You see, it's not me who is singling out Medvedeva. It's the judges, and I want to know why.

If the judges see what you do not see it's not judges' problem.

 

[Elsie]

If the judges see what you do not see it's not judges' problem.

It's perfectly OK to be a Medvedeva fan, but there's only one tiny little problem with your reasoning: millions of other people also think just like me that Evgenia is always overscored, and that the judging is wrong on so many levels. Many of those people are much more knowledgeable than me (I'm just a nobody, I confess). Are we all blind and stupid then?

Most of the things Evgenia has been criticized for can be and have been objectively analysed, and if you just took the time to look into all of that perhaps you would understand where that thing you mistakenly call "hatred" comes from.

 

[Lily flowers]

As a Evgenia fan, it does get annoying seeing the amount of negativity she receives. Especially when it's so repetitive and nothing new is being said. So it's only normal that at some point we stop arguing back because it's useless and no one is going to change their mind at the end.

 

[[email protected]]

It's perfectly OK to be a Medvedeva fan, but there's only one tiny little problem with your reasoning: millions of other people also think just like me that Evgenia is always overscored, and that the judging is wrong on so many levels. Many of those people are much more knowledgeable than me (I'm just a nobody, I confess). Are we all blind and stupid then?

Most of the things Evgenia has been criticized for can be and have been objectively analysed, and if you just took the time to look into all of that perhaps you would understand where that thing you mistakenly call "hatred" comes from.

I can offer big obvious problems in your reasoning counter my "one tiny little problem"

Problem 1: don't refer to millions of people. There are a couple of dozens active "Medvedeva's friends" here. There are some crazy korean fans on youtube who see in Medvedeva the heir to Adelina whom they wished death at some point. There are some crazy Russians who write terrible things about Medvedeva on sports.ru. It's easy to see their motivation. In 80% it's just the fury that she either beat their current favorites or the records of their former favorites. If you count them all you would not get any millions - a couple of hundreds at best. They are easily counteracted by those who give Evgenia standing ovations - spectators from many countries, by the Japanese where she is very popular and by vast majority of the Russians.


Problem 2: I already said recently that what Medvedeva is "objectively" criticized for is either pure personal tastes and emotions or something what other top contenders have, like wrong edge on lutz and repeating choreo. At the same time, Medvedeva can do what they cannot: she can consistently skate tech packed interesting programs with the lightness unique to her, the lightness which is much more impressive when you see her performances liive.

Problem 3: Some crtics often ignore blatant cases of other skaters overscoring never missing to point out how grossly Medvedeva is overscored after her every performance.

Problem 4: well, I am tired. It's all futile. What I am trying to do is to keep the balance. Let's watch some figure skating.

 

[Elsie]

I can offer big obvious problems in your reasoning counter my "one tiny little problem"

Problem 1: don't refer to millions of people. There are a couple of dozens active "Medvedeva's friends" here. There are some crazy korean fans on youtube who see in Medvedeva the heir to Adelina whom they wished death at some point. There are some crazy Russians who write terrible things about Medvedeva on sports.ru. It's easy to see their motivation. In 80% it's just the fury that she either beat their current favorites or the records of their former favorites. If you count them all you would not get any millions - a couple of hundreds at best. They are easily counteracted by those who give Evgenia standing ovations - spectators from many countries, by the Japanese where she is very popular and by vast majority of the Russians.


Problem 2: I already said recently that what Medvedeva is "objectively" criticized for is either pure personal tastes and emotions or something what other top contenders have, like wrong edge on lutz and repeating choreo. At the same time, Medvedeva can do what they cannot: she can consistently skate tech packed interesting programs with the lightness unique to her, the lightness which is much more impressive when you see her performances liive.

Problem 3: Some crtics often ignore blatant cases of other skaters overscoring never missing to point out how grossly Medvedeva is overscored after her every performance.

Problem 4: well, I am tired. It's all futile. What I am trying to do is to keep the balance. Let's watch some figure skating.

Again, you are assuming things that aren't true. I am not Korean and I'm not even an outspoken Yuna Kim fan either. I am not here on this forum to only criticize Medvedeva, and I'm not a Medvedeva hater. Saying that she was overscored is not the same as hating her. I don't get why it is so difficult to understand that, unless of course you are one of her blind fans who can't tolerate any criticism.

All of Medvedeva's shortcomings can be observed in videos all over YouTube. I don't care if there are only hundreds of people who are willing to see those shortcomings (and I'm sure there are many more than just hundreds). I see them myself and that's sufficient for me. But I know there is much debate on whether her scores are deserved or not, and you know what they say: where there is smoke, there is usually fire. And in this case there is.

Given the fact that Medvedeva just received her very first edge call EVER for her very obvious flutz in her long program proves my point that the judging was corrupt all along, since she made the exact same mistake through the last two seasons and yet she was never called but now suddenly she is. Fair judging cannot call a flutz a clean lutz one day and then all of a sudden call it a flutz, which it certainly is and has always been. Conclusion: judging is not objective or her flutz would have been called every single time.

Medvedeva is still the most overscored skater in history, regardless of all your arguments, and regardless of all her strengths such as her consistency and her lightness on the ice. Deep inside you know that very well.

And that, my friends, is the reason why these discussions always turn nasty, because you have these die-hard fans who are not willing to admit that their favorite skater is not perfect. But of course they have a way of turning it around and blaming the so-called "Medvedeva haters" if the discussions go wrong, when in fact it went wrong from the moment I was called a "hater" simply because I disagreed with Medvedeva's score, even though I clearly stated that she deserved her first place in the short program.

 

[[email protected]]

Given the fact that Medvedeva just received her very first edge call EVER for her very obvious flutz in her long program proves my point that the judging was corrupt all along, since she made the exact same mistake through the last two seasons and yet she was never called but now suddenly she is.

I think I am going to check out now because you are either ignorant or know everything but just want to impress people who are ignorant. I am going to lose in any case arguing with you.

For a record, Medvedeva received ! calls every now and then. Just the protocol from her 2016 GPF proves that your statement is a lie.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/gpf1516/gpf1516_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Osmond with a clear wrong lutz edge at her yesterdays' SP was not called. Bye now.

 

[solani]

Osmond with a clear wrong lutz edge at her yesterdays' SP was not called. Bye now.

I'm not so sure about Osmond's lutz yesterday. Probably ! but hard to tell with that video.
But that's not what I want to point out - I want to point out that Medvedeva's lutz should be safe of any scrutiny if she lands it clean. That's how it was last season (same goes for a bunch of other skaters as well). It's quite simple - give the tech panel no reason to review the jump and don't start thinking about it. I think that working on that lutz edge would only unnerve her at this point. Her team shouldn't risk that.

 

[Elsie]

I think I am going to check out now because you are either ignorant or know everything but just want to impress people who are ignorant. I am going to lose in any case arguing with you.

For a record, Medvedeva received ! calls every now and then. Just the protocol from her 2016 GPF proves that your statement is a lie.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/gpf1516/gpf1516_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Osmond with a clear wrong lutz edge at her yesterdays' SP was not called. Bye now.

Not sure how someone could be either totally ignorant or know everything as they sound like the exact opposite of each other to me, but whatever. At least you know you won't win this argument! We are not talking about Osmond here so I won't bother bringing her into the discussion as you did.

OK, you beat me there. Evgenia did get called once. I bet you had to look really, really hard to find a protocol where Medvedeva was actually "penalized" for her flutz, if you can call it "penalized".

I quote from Wikipedia's article on the ISU Judging System:

"If a jump has been called as having an unclear take-off edge are marked with an ! it should receive a -1 to -2 GOE depending on severity; a jump that has been called as having an incorrect take-off edge (for example, an inside edge on a Lutz jump take-off), that jump is marked with an e and should receive a -2 or -3 GOE depending on severity." Assuming that Wikipedia copied the rules from the official ISU rules, I think this calls for a "Houston, we have a problem!". Here is why:

In the GPF 2016 that you're bringing up, Evgenia actually received several +1, several times 0 and only ONE -1 for her !lutz, even though the rules clearly say she should receive either -1 or -2 depending on severity, and with Evgenia's flutz we all know what degree of severity should be applied. That is not even counting the fact that most probably the ! should really have been e (I would have to check to be sure but I'm leaving that up to the real experts). All her other jumps and other elements received high GOEs that many would find suspicious given her mediocre jumping abilities (low speed, short distance, average height, always pre-rotations and sometimes under-rotations, muscled style and always that awkward, long pause between the first and second jump of a combo). It's also odd to see that her component score is so much higher than silver medal Satoko Miyahara, which in my personal opinion is better than Evgenia in that department.

So at the end of the day, I still think the term "over-scored" applies. But who am I to say?

Only my personal opinion, of course, as always.

 

[pearly]

Osmond and Medvedeva skated at different competitions with different panels.

Someone earlier mentioned Wakaba's 75 point SP, which wasn't backloaded in contrast to Medvedeva's 80 point SP. Again, you can't compare scores between competitions.

 

[ancientpeas]

Osmond has a Game of thrones Littlefinger jetpack if she is able to show up Montreal and then Slovakia in such a short period of time..

How about instead of invoking the name of Evgenia or Kaetlyn or anyone else we just say that if it's on the wrong edge it should be called and no one should get away with it. Same for under rotations and pre rotations. Call it all or call none of it.

 

[ancientpeas]

I can offer big obvious problems in your reasoning counter my "one tiny little problem"

Problem 1: don't refer to millions of people. There are a couple of dozens active "Medvedeva's friends" here. There are some crazy korean fans on youtube who see in Medvedeva the heir to Adelina whom they wished death at some point. There are some crazy Russians who write terrible things about Medvedeva on sports.ru. It's easy to see their motivation. In 80% it's just the fury that she either beat their current favorites or the records of their former favorites. If you count them all you would not get any millions - a couple of hundreds at best. They are easily counteracted by those who give Evgenia standing ovations - spectators from many countries, by the Japanese where she is very popular and by vast majority of the Russians.



.

Um.. really? Why do some Russians hate her?

Edited to fix my bolding issue.

Also I don't see what there is to hate about her. I do not like VO so her last free skate wasn't my favourite but she's a remarkable talent and very easy to appreciate. I don't get it.

 

[[email protected]]

OK, you beat me there. Evgenia did get called once. I bet you had to look really, really hard to find a protocol where Medvedeva was actually "penalized" for her flutz, if you can call it "penalized".

Now it's funny. You are really ignorant. You write long posts having no clue about FS and what happened just recently. Evgenia was not called just once. Evgenia was called every now and then as I said. I gave the link to her 15/16 GPF protocol. Here is the link to Skate Canada 16

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpcan2016/gpcan2016_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Here is the link to her 16/17 GPF protocol

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpf1617/gpf1617_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Let's call it even, you don't answer me - I don't answer you. Just don't spread more lies.

 

[Lily flowers]

Osmond has a Game of thrones Littlefinger jetpack if she is able to show up Montreal and then Slovakia in such a short period of time..

How about instead of invoking the name of Evgenia or Kaetlyn or anyone else we just say that if it's on the wrong edge it should be called and no one should get away with it. Same for under rotations and pre rotations. Call it all or call none of it.

all of the characters have the now :rofl2:

 

[[email protected]]

I'm not so sure about Osmond's lutz yesterday. Probably ! but hard to tell with that video.

It looked ! to me as well but it was not the outside edge no matter how bad the video was.

Once again, both Medvedeva and Osmond have the same lutz takeoff edge problem

Osmond and Medvedeva skated at different competitions with different panels.

Someone earlier mentioned Wakaba's 75 point SP, which wasn't backloaded in contrast to Medvedeva's 80 point SP. Again, you can't compare scores between competitions.

I was trying to say 2 things. 1) Medvedeva's 80 happened in the times when other skates receive the scores they would not receive in the past. So her score should be compared with todays' score standards, not with those from the last quad. And ten she is not overscored. 2) Whatever calls she and Osmond receive is irrelevant when they skate at different competitions. They both will win everything when clean with whatever calls they got (except clean Zagitova) But when they compete against each other it will be big injustice if only one of them get called. And this injustice may be decisive to determine the winner.

Um.. really? Why do some Russians hate her?

Arguments are similar to what is said here. But in fact there are 2 groups. The first one are those who just hate Eteri/Averbukh and Evgenya is a relevant scapegoat (well, Zagitova as well now). The other are ubers of other skaters, first of all of Yulia and Adelina. In order to support the claim how those two are/were exceptional the easiest way is to diminish Medvedeva's qualities. There was one funny "analysis". Some guy brought up a lot of measurements and formulas which were hard to comprehend with the outcome which raised the brows of people who were hardly Medvedeva's fans: Evgenya had the worst the most cheated jumps and the best jumps had ... Yulia.

 

[gravy]

Hardly, how about whenever ANYONE receives unprecedented HUGE scores deserve to be pored over, as it is supposed to represent an unprecedented standard of excellence and breakthroughs in the history of this sport. When people disagree with the judging, you don't see people go and cry people being Anti American/Canadian/Korean/Japanese etc... so why only Anti-Russia?

Narcissism turning into entitlement, turning victimhood is getting pathological and tired on these boards. A score of anything over 70s used to represent some sort of artistic breakthroughs, technical risks, new depth of personal realisation, inspired performance, or exceptional program quality but not anymore. When the work failed to live up to the HUGE score, of course, people are going to scrutinise and rightly so. Otherwise, why bother watching anymore? Is this the best ever was? Or some kind of fix? When there's no sense of competition, when skaters are treated differently, the measurement of excellence is broken, then it is not a credible competitive sport anymore. It ends up becoming a huge waste of time for everybody, particularly those perpetually stuck in the 60s despite the 3A, good programs and performances.

A-effing-men. I wish I could "like" this more than once.

It's quite telling about someone's headspace when their default response to criticism is "everyone hates Russia". After hearing it so many times though, it's become pretty amusing. As for the rest of your post, the scoring has for sure gone bananas. I keep watching for the odd chance that a gem of a program appears, but for the most part women's figure skating has lost it's grasp on me as an actual sporting competition.

 

[Elsie]

This is ridiculous. Regardless of how many edge calls Medvedeva may or may not have received, I don't have to prove that she has been over-scored during her entire senior career so far. That's hardly a secret, and you'd have to be more than blind to not see it. More like headless. If I'm not allowed to say on this forum that her scores are unrealistic then I'm not sure if I want to be here any longer.

I have never made claims that I'm an expert at figure skating. In fact, I have repeated several times on this forum that I'm not even a skater. But I don't see why that matters here. If I'm not mistaken, not even the judges who are active in international skating competitions are required to be skaters themselves. And given all the mistakes they've made over the past couple of years, those judges can hardly be called "experts" either.

Also, someone needs to explain to me why I'm being put in the "Medvedeva haters" club simply for pointing out that she's being over-scored, which she is and has always been, and for proving it. And not only compared to previous generations but also within the current field. There may be some other cases like Osmond but by all accounts Medvedeva is the most obvious case, and she's the one who is breaking all the world records with scores that are dubious to say the least. Whether it's her fault of the ISU or the judges or whoever, that's a different matter that I'm not going into here because frankly, I don't know whose fault it is and I don't want to say stupid things that I'll regret later.

All this talking about "haters", "ubers" or whatnot... I don't even know what you are referring to. I don't belong to any of those groups, and if anyone thinks that I do, that's only your imagination.

Regarding Medvedeva, the way I see it, and edge call can only be called an edge call if it results in negative GOE, as the ISU rules say that it should. If the overall GOE for that jump is still positive - which should be technically impossible but some skaters (well, only one that I know of) manage to defy all logic - then the edge call was fake. Sure, the exclamation mark or the e is there, but it only serves as decoration and has no meaning since it is not reflected in the score the way that it should. What's the point of making an edge call if the judges avoid it later when the marks are being given? Even now that Medvedeva finally received a well-deserved e for her lutz in the long program, there was still one judge who didn't get it. So once again, she was over-scored.

By the way, am I the only one who is wondering what made the judges change their mind all of a sudden and start calling her flutz finally? I guess the "Evgenia haters" must be blackmailing them or something.