2017-2018 State of Russian Ice Dance

[Barb]

Look, Ilinykh and Zhiganshin went to the US and where did it end? Nowhere. Same with Sinitsina and Katsalapov. But these two at least still skating together. What's about good 'North American' Russian coaches?

the problem were not the coaches, the problem was that Russia sent to the wrong teams.

 

[Snow63]

the problem were not the coaches, the problem was that Russia sent to the wrong teams.

I agree with that. But who thought that it was wrong teams to send abroad? They looked decent, one of them was even a National Champions? Where's guarantees that next teams will not end up like them? Is there any?

 

[Barb]

I agree with that. But who thought that it was wrong teams to send abroad? They looked decent, one of them was even a National Champions? Where's guarantees that next teams will not end up like them? Is there any?

Simply with a team drama free and without questionable work habits it would work.

 

[Snow63]

Simply with a team drama free and without questionable work habits it would work.

Maybe. Or maybe not. My point was that the Fed tried it with two perspective teams, spent some money and it didn't help them even a little bit. So they will not want probably to do that again. Especially with a junior teams who tend to split during/after the transfer to Seniors more often than not in Russia. The two teams they would probably consider are Bobrova/Soloviev and Stepanova/Bukin. So the answer is no

 

[Skater Boy]

I know it is a bit of a lull for Russia right now in ice dance. They don't have much of any olympic medal threat. I am not sure what the answer is but they still will have 1 or 2 teams in the top ten which isn't horrible.

 

[madison]

I'm really scared of the perspective to have Bukins as Russia no 1 after Bobs' retirement (.
It doesn't really looks good for Russian ice-dance

 

[coldblueeyes]

Well, many things can happen this season, so the next really is a mystery. For all we know Popova and Mozgov could rise to the top. And we didn't really see Nikita and Victoria competing this season, so no way to know how they'll score. Alexandra and Ivan are not really that secure on their top placement at the moment, I'd say, so it's all in the air. There's still L/D who could bounce back from these horrid programs, and the juniors coming up next year.

 

[gmyers]

That’s not true that almost all Europeans couples are in north America. What about Fusar-Poli? She doesn’t coach in north america and she has many European couples.

I have mentioned Fusar Poli. She had a great school of ijs knowledge and support. Russia could send teams to her. It would help a lot.

Random.

Popova & Mozgov are not a Marina-type team. (Krylova & Camerlengo would be OK, but P&M seem to be making good strides where they are).

Stepanova & Bukin are not a Dubreil & Lauzon-type team. The whole problem with their FD this season is that they have been given a Dubreil & Lauzon-type program.

Peter, how could you? If Nikita & his fizzled twizzles get to go to the Olympics because of this, I am going to be very cranky. I still like S&B's SD. The middle still needs improvement. But the beginning is even better than it was, and at least this team hits the strong notes. Far too many teams this season are ignoring them altogether and trying to skate to the melody without the rhythm.

All teams should be able to adapt to whatever. That’s mandatory for ice dance anyway. Do a tango! Do a foxtrot. Do a waltz. Ice dance madates doing every style of dance so a statement like “ s/b aren’t a dubreil team” doesn’t sit well. If they want to get success in ice dance they should be a dubreil team or p/m should be a zueva team or whatever.

Look, Ilinykh and Zhiganshin went to the US and where did it end? Nowhere. Same with Sinitsina and Katsalapov. But these two at least still skating together. What's about good 'North American' Russian coaches?

I/z worked with spiliband for a microsecond! Their arrangement was over before October I believe. Katsalapov incompetence with twizzles and extreme temper sabotages all.

Maybe. Or maybe not. My point was that the Fed tried it with two perspective teams, spent some money and it didn't help them even a little bit. So they will not want probably to do that again. Especially with a junior teams who tend to split during/after the transfer to Seniors more often than not in Russia. The two teams they would probably consider are Bobrova/Soloviev and Stepanova/Bukin. So the answer is no

Only one team. I/z can’t count because it wasn’t even half a season. It was a month or two. And more importantly is that ice dance coaching in Russia is an extreme total disaster with no success anymore. They have to move teams wirh potential to North america or Italy and or have all their coaches retrained so they know about the best way to use ijs.

I know it is a bit of a lull for Russia right now in ice dance. They don't have much of any olympic medal threat. I am not sure what the answer is but they still will have 1 or 2 teams in the top ten which isn't horrible.

It is horrible and but also sad and disgraceful. What about when they had two teams in the top 3?

Every other country knows the answer. Send teams to North America. France does it. Finland does it! Great Britain does it. North America or Italy. Czech Republic knows. Hungary knows.

 

[Marta25]

I`m maybe the odd one out here, but I don`t think Russia`s ice dance perspective is so bleak. Yes, it`s going to be probably very tough for Russia once Bobrova/Soloviev retire. Stepanova has still pretty big technical issues, and Nikita is well Nikita. He can be brilliant in one moment and a total disaster in the next. But there are a lot of talented teams coming up. There are of course Loboda/Drozd, whose coach is hopefully working day and night to improve their Free Dance, then there is with Popva/Mozgov a new team that has improved a lot. Behind those teams there are tons of talented junior teams who will be moving up to Seniors in the next few years. Right now, there is no other country that has Russia`s deep field of junior ice dance teams. People like to talk about how deep the girls` field is, but the same is true for junior ice dance. Scoptcova/Aleshin who have won JGP Poland with the current top total junior score could either win Junior Nationals or end up as low as 6th place, that`s how deep the field is in Russia.
After Korea I accept a few difficult seasons for Russia, but IMO the future looks good.

Concerning training in US or Canada, I think that skaters that come from small countries like Ukraine or Spain don`t have much choice in that regard. Skaters from those countries don`t have the conditions, coaches and experts in their home countries and therefore have to move. As I understand it from the interviews I have read, Russia has pretty great training conditions and although the funding was cut back, it seems it`s still better than for most other countries. I think the Russian coaches just need to keep working hard and find the right formula to get back on top.

 

[Snow63]

I`m maybe the odd one out here, but I don`t think Russia`s ice dance perspective is so bleak. Yes, it`s going to be probably very tough for Russia once Bobrova/Soloviev retire. Stepanova has still pretty big technical issues, and Nikita is well Nikita. He can be brilliant in one moment and a total disaster in the next. But there are a lot of talented teams coming up. There are of course Loboda/Drozd, whose coach is hopefully working day and night to improve their Free Dance, then there is with Popva/Mozgov a new team that has improved a lot. Behind those teams there are tons of talented junior teams who will be moving up to Seniors in the next few years. Right now, there is no other country that has Russia`s deep field of junior ice dance teams. People like to talk about how deep the girls` field is, but the same is true for junior ice dance. Scoptcova/Aleshin who have won JGP Poland with the current top total junior score could either win Junior Nationals or end up as low as 6th place, that`s how deep the field is in Russia.
After Korea I accept a few difficult seasons for Russia, but IMO the future looks good.

Concerning training in US or Canada, I think that skaters that come from small countries like Ukraine or Spain don`t have much choice in that regard. Skaters from those countries don`t have the conditions, coaches and experts in their home countries and therefore have to move. As I understand it from the interviews I have read, Russia has pretty great training conditions and although the funding was cut back, it seems it`s still better than for most other countries. I think the Russian coaches just need to keep working hard and find the right formula to get back on top.

I partly agree with you. There's definitely no lack of talent in Russian ice dance field. At my local Russia's cup event I've seen junior teams which I've never even heard about who looked just as strong as teams who compete in JGP series. And a lot of them are young (14-16 y.o.). But... I think, and I've said it million times before, that many Russian coaches and the ISU look in the polar opposite directions where technical elements are concerned. Bright example of that is Stepanova/Bukin's FD curve lift: it is so acrobatically difficult, overloaded and heavy that it will never receive high GOE (+2/+3), when Hubbel/Donohue's 'blade on the partner's boot' type of lifts will score big time, for example. And while I personally against it, and it's not really fair, I can clearly see why Svinin and Zhuk are losing the game. And guess what? After they've seen the result of such approach in Finland (not the first time), and (I'm 99% sure) were advised to re-consider this lift, Svinin simply says there will be no changes. That's the real problem. And that's just one example. When will they understand?

P.S. I sound exactly like gmyers here, can't help myself

 

[Marta25]

I partly agree with you. There's definitely no lack of talent in Russian ice dance field. At my local Russia's cup event I've seen junior teams which I've never even heard about who looked just as strong as teams who compete in JGP series. And a lot of them are young (14-16 y.o.). But... I think, and I've said it million times before, that many Russian coaches and the ISU look in the polar opposite directions where technical elements are concerned. Bright example of that is Stepanova/Bukin's FD curve lift: it is so acrobatically difficult, overloaded and heavy that it will never receive high GOE (+2/+3), when Hubbel/Donohue's 'blade on the partner's boot' type of lifts will score big time, for example. And while I personally against it, and it's not really fair, I can clearly see why Svinin and Zhuk are losing the game. And guess what? After they've seen the result of such approach in Finland (not the first time), and (I'm 99% sure) were advised to re-consider this lift, Svinin simply says there will be no changes. That's the real problem. And that's just one example. When will they understand?

P.S. I sound exactly like gmyers here, can't help myself

Maybe when Stepanova/Bukin stay home, while Sinitsina/Katsalapov go to the Olympics?

It`s true that Svinin/Zhuk tend to create lifts with too many position changes, although I have to say they have done a good job with their two junior teams. Especially Shpilevaya/Smirnov`s rotational lift in the FD is cool.

 

[coldblueeyes]

One thing to admire about Svinin and Zhuk is that they have a lot of creativity in their camp. All their teams look different, and have different elements in their programs. And that's something good. Zhulin has been having great ideas for lifts, and others not so good - but take a look at B/S curve lift this season, it's simplistic, but very effective, also, very COP friendly. And despite Kustarova not having the best ideas regarding packaging, her teams are well trained, especially in juniors.

Those are all good things, I just wish they could put some more effort into analyzing why their elements work or not. It's something Russia excels in rhythmic gymnastics, and it's the reason why they are so good at it, they play with the rules - the same thing Eteri does, and it's working wonderfully.

 

[bramweld]

One thing to admire about Svinin and Zhuk is that they have a lot of creativity in their camp. All their teams look different, and have different elements in their programs. And that's something good. Zhulin has been having great ideas for lifts, and others not so good - but take a look at B/S curve lift this season, it's simplistic, but very effective, also, very COP friendly. And despite Kustarova not having the best ideas regarding packaging, her teams are well trained, especially in juniors.

Those are all good things, I just wish they could put some more effort into analyzing why their elements work or not. It's something Russia excels in rhythmic gymnastics, and it's the reason why they are so good at it, they play with the rules - the same thing Eteri does, and it's working wonderfully.

My favorite curve lifts this year actually comes from I/S. The second lift in their Spartacus program to be exact. B/S curve lift is sort of ho-hum, we've seen may others do variations on the same theme. The candle stick lift is okay but not ground braking, but the lift they do gliding on the knee is quite neat, it's just that Bobrova struggles to get back up to speed after the dismount and you almost always see her humping her back to get speed. It just looks so messy when you compare their basic skating to others across the world. Their cross overs don't look smooth, the same for SinKats, its almost as if they went to completely different schools and its taking them a really long time to make even that basic motion gel. How is that possible from the same country that gave us Elena B and Anton S.? I just can't I tell you. They were a thing of beauty.

IMHO, this is what Russia needs to address first, just the basics of their skaters, or more specifically their IDs. One of the very few ID with solid basics is EI. In Zhulin's own words as well as Svinins, her technique is perfect. It was so since she was a child. So my question is who were the persons who helped her develop her basics and why weren't these basics transferred to the other skaters coming up? Or are you basic skills God given? Or is it some elusive combination of both. Because honestly when you look at Stepanova trying to complete the pattern dance, you literally want to cry. They did not get even one of the key points for the CD section of the SD.

 

[coldblueeyes]

My favorite curve lifts this year actually comes from I/S. The second lift in their Spartacus program to be exact. B/S curve lift is sort of ho-hum, we've seen may others do variations on the same theme. The candle stick lift is okay but not ground braking, but the lift they do gliding on the knee is quite neat, it's just that Bobrova struggles to get back up to speed after the dismount and you almost always see her humping her back to get speed. It just looks so messy when you compare their basic skating to others across the world. Their cross overs don't look smooth, the same for SinKats, its almost as if they went to completely different schools and its taking them a really long time to make even that basic motion gel. How is that possible from the same country that gave us Elena B and Anton S.? I just can't I tell you. They were a thing of beauty.

IMHO, this is what Russia needs to address first, just the basics of their skaters, or more specifically their IDs. One of the very few ID with solid basics is EI. In Zhulin's own words as well as Svinins, her technique is perfect. It was so since she was a child. So my question is who were the persons who helped her develop her basics and why weren't these basics transferred to the other skaters coming up? Or are you basic skills God given? Or is it some elusive combination of both. Because honestly when you look at Stepanova trying to complete the pattern dance, you literally want to cry. They did not get even one of the key points for the CD section of the SD.

Edit: Well, then I'll just redact myself.

 

[bsfan]

Did we upgrade Anton already? Is it osmosis? Something like that? He's breathing the same air Elena breathes and suddenly he's the next best thing? The coach that took on them literally said it's on a trial basis after they were kicked from their last coach, and you come up with this?

I don't know what to tell you...

I think the post meant pair skaters Elena B and Anton S.

 

[gmyers]

I`m maybe the odd one out here, but I don`t think Russia`s ice dance perspective is so bleak. Yes, it`s going to be probably very tough for Russia once Bobrova/Soloviev retire. Stepanova has still pretty big technical issues, and Nikita is well Nikita. He can be brilliant in one moment and a total disaster in the next. But there are a lot of talented teams coming up. There are of course Loboda/Drozd, whose coach is hopefully working day and night to improve their Free Dance, then there is with Popva/Mozgov a new team that has improved a lot. Behind those teams there are tons of talented junior teams who will be moving up to Seniors in the next few years. Right now, there is no other country that has Russia`s deep field of junior ice dance teams. People like to talk about how deep the girls` field is, but the same is true for junior ice dance. Scoptcova/Aleshin who have won JGP Poland with the current top total junior score could either win Junior Nationals or end up as low as 6th place, that`s how deep the field is in Russia.
After Korea I accept a few difficult seasons for Russia, but IMO the future looks good.

Concerning training in US or Canada, I think that skaters that come from small countries like Ukraine or Spain don`t have much choice in that regard. Skaters from those countries don`t have the conditions, coaches and experts in their home countries and therefore have to move. As I understand it from the interviews I have read, Russia has pretty great training conditions and although the funding was cut back, it seems it`s still better than for most other countries. I think the Russian coaches just need to keep working hard and find the right formula to get back on top.

This has been said for seven years. Something is broken. All the world jr champs for russia in ice dance have gone nowhere because the system is broken for seniors. What’s working in juniors doesn’t work in seniors. The only hope is a team that was senior before 2010. That’s so bad and they aren’t even that good. 8th in worlds short dance and then only third in fd in 2017 because of an amazing sequence of errors that was comparable to 2006 Olympic OD. People will bring up I/k and their Olympic bronze in 2014 but with a coach that’s not really of the Russian system and North American mostly. Plus i/k had 14th place TES in the fd at 2013 worlds. They had big problems and didn’t medal in a gp event in 2013. Then they broke up because of all their failures.

How about Finland? They are right next door to Russia and send both their ice dance teams to North America. They can walk to St. Petersberg! Lol. They don’t go to Russia because their ice dance coaches have no talent or success now.

 

[gmyers]

My favorite curve lifts this year actually comes from I/S. The second lift in their Spartacus program to be exact. B/S curve lift is sort of ho-hum, we've seen may others do variations on the same theme. The candle stick lift is okay but not ground braking, but the lift they do gliding on the knee is quite neat, it's just that Bobrova struggles to get back up to speed after the dismount and you almost always see her humping her back to get speed. It just looks so messy when you compare their basic skating to others across the world. Their cross overs don't look smooth, the same for SinKats, its almost as if they went to completely different schools and its taking them a really long time to make even that basic motion gel. How is that possible from the same country that gave us Elena B and Anton S.? I just can't I tell you. They were a thing of beauty.

IMHO, this is what Russia needs to address first, just the basics of their skaters, or more specifically their IDs. One of the very few ID with solid basics is EI. In Zhulin's own words as well as Svinins, her technique is perfect. It was so since she was a child. So my question is who were the persons who helped her develop her basics and why weren't these basics transferred to the other skaters coming up? Or are you basic skills God given? Or is it some elusive combination of both. Because honestly when you look at Stepanova trying to complete the pattern dance, you literally want to cry. They did not get even one of the key points for the CD section of the SD.

The history is very clear! You saw many ice dance teams in Soviet times where only one was a good skater. The belief that only has to be talented is still a very big part of the system. Ijs punishes this so severely most of the time. You need much more equal talent. Of course Bukin needs to find a new partner or Stepanova must be taught to skate but there is that belief only one needs to be talented. Look at his fathers team. Two equal skaters? Lol. No.

 

[bramweld]

I think the post meant pair skaters Elena B and Anton S.

That is correct. I just cannot spell their names.

 

[Snow63]

My favorite curve lifts this year actually comes from I/S.

The descend alone makes it average at best. He dropped her like a sack of potatoes.

 

[bramweld]

The descend alone makes it average at best. He dropped her like a sack of potatoes.

It's more like she simply stepped down, and yes it could be a bit smoother but he did not drop her like a sack of potatoes, huh? Maybe it will look much better come Nationals or even later. The version that they do in the SD is smoother and a lot more impressive. What I admire the most about them right now though is how smoothly and powerfully they skate, the other things hopefully will come in time.