2017-18 State of Russian Ladies skating

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Refinement? Are you joking? )))

Yes. Osmond completes her movements and has more elegant arms and nuances in her choreography. Zagitova's program choreography is pretty frenetic/rushed, and could use actual editing and refinement, plus her movements still look quite juniorish (although seeing as how she's just coming up from juniors, and Eteri isn't exactly known to have the most sophisticated choreo, one can hardly hold it against her at this point). Although I suppose, to some people, tacking on a tutu = balletic look = refinement. :sarcasm:

 

[madison]

Yes. Osmond completes her movements and has more elegant arms and nuances in her choreography. Zagitova's program choreography is pretty frenetic/rushed, and could use actual editing and refinement, plus her movements still look quite juniorish (although seeing as how she's just coming up from juniors, and Eteri isn't exactly known to have the most sophisticated choreo, one can hardly hold it against her at this point). Although I suppose, to some people, tacking on a tutu = balletic look = refinement. :sarcasm:

What a good joke!!! Hilarious movements, you mean.
Let's have a look at this video, min 2:05-2:07.... Does she skate on oriental music? I'd say so
Min 2:30 aprox. what is that? is the swan in lethargy or something?:eeking:
And there are many other moments like this... No comment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtuYvQD-izU

 

[Ares]

I love Evgenia's new program. It's enough of a departure from her usual style while still playing to her strengths. There's a tragic story without any attempts to be Averbukh OTT - it's not about world hunger or the Holocaust or anything like that. The music is much more dynamic than her previous LPs. The new costume is also mature.

How mad is Averbukh? Is he going to bash her in the press?

ETA: I will say that Evgenia's jumps looked the most labored I have ever seen them. There was nothing objectively bad about them, but they don't seem effortless. Element to element, Alina is the best - but performance-wise she is saddled with a junior program. Now that Evgenia is doing something as sophisticated as Anna Karenina, Alina looks much worse in comparison.

I like it too to my surprise Sure some of my pet peeves related to Evgenia stay but I am more drawn into her skating than usually, I guess there's a reason behind it - no Averbukh as a choreograph in it.

 

[Ares]

judging at some events are more strict, at some - more generous. But mostly generous at national events. Don't know about small events in US, but depending on Nationals, it's the same.

In Japan they're not generous though. It's an exception.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Min 2:30 aprox. what is that? is the swan in lethargy or something?:eeking:
And there are many other moments like this... No comment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtuYvQD-izU

Don't you know that 3loops make swans all tuckered out. She was just grabbing a little needed rest. It's great interpretation

 

[tars]

Yes. Osmond completes her movements and has more elegant arms and nuances in her choreography.

I've always wondered, to what degree can you teach elegant arms?
Can you practice it to perfection or you have to be born Lipnitskaya, Honda, Gubanova, Shcherbakova...? :think:

 

[Lana05]

For me both Osmond and Zagitova are more powerful skaters than elegant. They entrance and touch the heart when programs are clean. But with mistakes i can't feel them. Same for nearly all North American skaters (Karen Chen is an exсaption).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

In Japan they're not generous though. It's an exception.

WTT gave huge scores to Mai Mihara/Wakaba Higuchi, and again to Mai at Japan Open.

And at Nationals they've given some pretty high scores too. http://www.jsfresults.com/National/2015-2016/fs_e/nationalsenior/data0105.pdf . Last year at NHK Hanyu's got 9.75's and even a 10 with a 4L error in his SP, and up to a 9.75 for PE even with a fall and doubled jump in his LP.

Russia is still definitely the leader though in overscoring, especially on home ice. Everywhere overscores from Japan to Canada to USA, but usually only in Russia do we see personal bests when skaters fall, and errors completely ignored by the judges (whether hands down on a jump, a two footed throw, a fall, and GOE handed out like candy. Hanyu getting 95 PCS with 2 falls was pretty bad (even for Nationals), but it's still nowhere as ridiculous as Plushenko's 95 at Russian Nationals with that hot mess of a FS (https://web.archive.org/web/20131227060740/http://fsrussia.ru/upl/ckeditor/protocol_rusnat1314.pdf - with 9.75s and even a 10.00, lol).

For a while, I thought Japan was stricter, but they still have their faves and will be tougher on the #2/#3 skaters (see: Suzuki losing NHK to Mao that one year). I notice it in Russia for skaters like Radionova or Menshov who are "sensible judging" scapegoats to counteract the generosity that the faves get, to make judges seem less biased over. Although, I can see in Japan they're already being generous to their own skaters more and more. I mean, it makes sense -- if everyone else is doing it, why would you hold your own skaters back?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I've always wondered, to what degree can you teach elegant arms?
Can you practice it to perfection or you have to be born Lipnitskaya, Honda, Gubanova, Shcherbakova...? :think:

You learn elegant arms. Some skaters have it more inherently, but all these folks are taking ballet/off-ice classes, and stand in front of giant mirrors on the ice rinks that have them as well, constantly trying to develop greater elegance and sophistication (usually as a teen, things are more mechanical and a sense of elegance doesn't come so obviously to a skater). I wouldn't include Lipniskaia in that list, or Gubanova or Shcherbakova. Marin's arms are very soft and elegant, and quite naturally refined. Karen Chen also has lovely arms, IMO.

If you look at some skaters over the years, like Mao, they start off really juniorish but then learn how to add nuance with their arms. Russian girls are known more for their "flourish" arms and doing things over the top. But there have been improvements in some of them over the years like Pogorilaya and Sotskova. It does take time and maturity to understand you don't have to flail to be artistic, even if the Russian style tends to be dramatic. The North American style tends to favour athleticism so it's not always easy to portray elegance (with exceptions like Cohen). Sometimes a skater can look sophisticated (e.g. Rochette) even if her arms don't look the softest. And then there are skaters like Kim and Kostner who achieve all the above. But YMMV.

 

[madison]

WTT gave huge scores to Mai Mihara/Wakaba Higuchi, and again to Mai at Japan Open.

And at Nationals they've given some pretty high scores too. http://www.jsfresults.com/National/2015-2016/fs_e/nationalsenior/data0105.pdf . Last year at NHK Hanyu's got 9.75's and even a 10 with a 4L error in his SP, and up to a 9.75 for PE even with a fall and doubled jump in his LP.

Russia is still definitely the leader though in overscoring, especially on home ice. Everywhere overscores from Japan to Canada to USA, but usually only in Russia do we see personal bests when skaters fall, and errors completely ignored by the judges (whether hands down on a jump, a two footed throw, a fall, and GOE handed out like candy. Hanyu getting 95 PCS with 2 falls was pretty bad (even for Nationals), but it's still nowhere as ridiculous as Plushenko's 95 at Russian Nationals with that hot mess of a FS (https://web.archive.org/web/20131227060740/http://fsrussia.ru/upl/ckeditor/protocol_rusnat1314.pdf - with 9.75s and even a 10.00, lol).

For a while, I thought Japan was stricter, but they still have their faves and will be tougher on the #2/#3 skaters (see: Suzuki losing NHK to Mao that one year). I notice it in Russia for skaters like Radionova or Menshov who are "sensible judging" scapegoats to counteract the generosity that the faves get, to make judges seem less biased over. Although, I can see in Japan they're already being generous to their own skaters more and more. I mean, it makes sense -- if everyone else is doing it, why would you hold your own skaters back?

I miss Radio Such a talented and passionate skater . I personally don't like the team she's doing with Buyanova. Don't think they are on the same page. And I'm sure she wasn't a scapegoat for Russian judges. Actually, I think the Russian Fed and surely Tarasova like her.

 

[tars]

You learn elegant arms. Some skaters have it more inherently, but all these folks are taking ballet/off-ice classes, and stand in front of giant mirrors on the ice rinks that have them as well, constantly trying to develop greater elegance and sophistication (usually as a teen, things are more mechanical and a sense of elegance doesn't come so obviously to a skater). I wouldn't include Lipniskaia in that list, or Gubanova or Shcherbakova. Marin's arms are very soft and elegant, and quite naturally refined. Karen Chen also has lovely arms, IMO.

If you look at some skaters over the years, like Mao, they start off really juniorish but then learn how to add nuance with their arms. Russian girls are known more for their "flourish" arms and doing things over the top. But there have been improvements in some of them over the years like Pogorilaya and Sotskova. It does take time and maturity to understand you don't have to flail to be artistic, even if the Russian style tends to be dramatic. The North American style tends to favour athleticism so it's not always easy to portray elegance (with exceptions like Cohen). Sometimes a skater can look sophisticated (e.g. Rochette) even if her arms don't look the softest. And then there are skaters like Kim and Kostner who achieve all the above. But YMMV.

You gotta include Gubanova (14), compare her to Radionova (18) who not only have had more time, but also best facility/trainers at CSKA. It shows also, you can only achieve certain level without innate talent. Imho.

 

[russianfan]

that's exactly how i think discussion will look like when ISU will introduce so called "artistic program"
user1: my skater waves her hands better!
user2: no way! mine has better moves!

 

[puremagic]

Gubanova

Speaking of the... angel. She'll be first to skate.
The stream is going to be here.

The competition will start at 13:00 +2 UTC.

 

[MedoLove]

I do not understand why there is so much talk about Osmond in this thread. OBJECTIVELY, we are witnessing a Russian and Japanese Boom. At the moment Evgenia is Objectively the one that has a better Balance in TES and PCS (the malicious ones can say that they are inflated, but we remember that a great part of the PCS are the Skating Skills and transitions, that evgenia dominates quite well). OBJECTIVELY, only a girl with a great TES and great potential can challenge her right now, that girl is Zagitova, and her punctuation says so. Wakaba could take out Zagitova if she manages to land a 3A (Wakaba axels are huge and clean, she has potential to land a 3A in competition), if she adds this element would be the skater most likely to challenge Evgenia (Wakaba's PCS are balanced too). Another girl would be Mihara who has a very high BV and surpassed Evgenia in TES.


That's the reality . Unless osmond's PCs explode magically I do not see how she can get into the favorites this season.

 

[hippomoomin]

I agree when I watched her new LP I thought that was the opposite of being sophisticated or elegant. She does sassy style of program well, which does not require rapid or varied arm movement. But in this program, her weakness really shows. Some skaters' artistry is an illusion. To a lesser extent, it can be said to Kostner. She cannot make a program that requires fast, varied arm movement look pretty either. Both have good ss (regarding edge) skills though, but again, they may not do programs with lots of transitions well.

What a good joke!!! Hilarious movements, you mean.
Let's have a look at this video, min 2:05-2:07.... Does she skate on oriental music? I'd say so
Min 2:30 aprox. what is that? is the swan in lethargy or something?:eeking:
And there are many other moments like this... No comment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtuYvQD-izU

 

[hippomoomin]

Just discovered Alina's sp at the ex of Japan Open, which is called Carnival on Ice?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWWkydh034o
She did skate to its full potential, perhaps it is under spot light. She also looks tired.

 

[lavoix]

Who says it's official that Medvedeva changed her LP? Has she made statements?

 

[nikros]

Who says it's official that Medvedeva changed her LP? Has she made statements?

The Chair of RusFed confirmed this:

https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1056326296.html

 

[Globetrotter]

I do not understand why there is so much talk about Osmond in this thread. OBJECTIVELY, we are witnessing a Russian and Japanese Boom. At the moment Evgenia is Objectively the one that has a better Balance in TES and PCS (the malicious ones can say that they are inflated, but we remember that a great part of the PCS are the Skating Skills and transitions, that evgenia dominates quite well).

Hmm but assessment of even SS has a subjective component. It is true that Zhenya gets high PCS across all the components but SS is the one where IMO she is overrated, based on the ISU criteria for what SS is assessing. Subjectively, I do not see the smooth flow, strong edges and effortless turns in most lady skaters, including Zhenya. That said, I d agree that she deserves perfect 10s for the PE/IN component which she excels in being able to connect to the audience. But not SS. Probably the best SS among current ladies I have seen will be Satoko Miyahara, Wakaba and Gracie Gold when she was actively competing. Excluding CaroK who is still on a comeback - she was far and away the best SS lady in the past quad but she hadn't regained them due to inadequate competitive fitness recently.

 

[charlotte14]

Hmm but assessment of even SS has a subjective component. It is true that Zhenya gets high PCS across all the components but SS is the one where IMO she is overrated, based on the ISU criteria for what SS is assessing. Subjectively, I do not see the smooth flow, strong edges and effortless turns in most lady skaters, including Zhenya. That said, I d agree that she deserves perfect 10s for the PE/IN component which she excels in being able to connect to the audience. But not SS. Probably the best SS among current ladies I have seen will be Satoko Miyahara, Wakaba and Gracie Gold when she was actively competing. Excluding CaroK who is still on a comeback - she was far and away the best SS lady in the past quad but she hadn't regained them due to inadequate competitive fitness recently.

Satoko, Wakaba and Carolina do not pack their programs with transitions. In fact Satoko has quite a number of crossovers (not excessively), same for Gracie Gold. I will call their SS as best of the field if they can maintain their speed with as many transitons as Eteri Girls. However, they don't.