2017-2018 State of Russian Ice Dance

[uhh]

I wasnt bringing Ilinykh and Katsalapov into the conversation to discuss as a team. Separately, they have wonderful blade skills and agility. I was wondering which coach taught each one of them their stroking and turns as young skaters. Whoever that person was needs to be used to develop skaters in Russia with better quality skills. Obviously, there is a talent that resides in each skater but teaching quality basic skating at an early age is about the best way they could start.

They first were put together as team by Lobacheva & Averbukh, but started out as single skaters under Natalia Dubinskaya. Dubinskaya's current skaters have nice basics but nothing exceptional, so I'm not sure that she's the answer to the woes of Russian ice dance... A lot of it does come down to natural talent. I think ice dance is suffering in Russia because for so long the ladies program was seen as less important so girls with strong basics went to ice dance or pairs. Now there is so much attention and investment in the ladies singles, and ice dance (and to a degree) pairs is losing out.

It is a shame that Lobacheva & Averbukh aren't involved in ice dance so much any more. Elena said in an interview that Irina was the person who really put the partnership together, and I think in his ice dance choreo, Ilia was much better at making programs that worked with each team's strength than he is with his rather cookie cutter singles work.

 

[lavoix]

Why wouldn’t they do what is necesssry? What have they been working for? For what did he return from injury and her from banning for it not to maximize potential. Best way to maximize potential is changing of programs or coaching or both.

Time? Money? Connection with current coach? You're not the Russian skating federation?

I think how they are going is fine, it's not like miracles happen in ice dance within just 2 seasons if you change coaches. I just think the judges are being bitchy. B/S just need to own it from now on and come out stronger.

 

[bramweld]

Time? Money? Connection with current coach? You're not the Russian skating federation?

I think how they are going is fine, it's not like miracles happen in ice dance within just 2 seasons if you change coaches. I just think the judges are being bitchy. B/S just need to own it from now on and come out stronger.

B/S should just bring back Anna K. It is possibly their most impressive FD of this quad. They're not going to the GPF so what have they got to loose? I/K never made the GPF before the OG. But I forget their SD is also not the best. So they're back to square one. :dumb: Way to go Zhulin, way to go. Didn't know it was so difficult to multitask with two top Russian teams? His team makes Patch and Marie-France look like supernaturals.

 

[gmyers]

Time? Money? Connection with current coach? You're not the Russian skating federation?

I think how they are going is fine, it's not like miracles happen in ice dance within just 2 seasons if you change coaches. I just think the judges are being bitchy. B/S just need to own it from now on and come out stronger.

Time- some Olympic and silver medalists in dance weren’t even competing in November.
Money-most european teams train in North America. From the smallest countries and federations
Connection with current coach- zhulin already destroyed one Olympic season for b/s and is doing again with a program completely rejected by all judges. They’ve been going down and down and judges express extreme hatred toward blindness cliches
Me not being Russian federation- true. I don’t know if they have destroyed their dance program for ladies but I doubt it. They are just a mess!

B/s are not doing fine. The are as a team experiencing total massive catastrophe and disaster.

 

[Bcash]

B/S's FD music is one of the more attractive ones for top 10 teams this season. The concept is interesting too. Whether they've maxed out their technical ability performing this I don't know.

 

[beki]

Call me crazy but I like B/S’s FD, including the blindness theme. I believe it’s metaphorical, not literal.

 

[coldblueeyes]

B/s are not doing fine. The are as a team experiencing total massive catastrophe and disaster.

Can we compile a list of how many teams would wish to experience the kind of massive catastrophe and disaster B/S are experiencing? Let's start with how many Russian teams have scored just about at the same level and with consistency in this quad - that they didn't even get the chance to compete fully? Can we get a number on that?

 

[NoNameFace]

Call me crazy but I like B/S’s FD, including the blindness theme. I believe it’s metaphorical, not literal.

I'm not going to call you crazy, beki, because there is no point of feeling as crazy person for liking Ekaterina/Dmitri's FD this season. I think this is sort of step ahead of going with more structured, literal or already told stories and going into more abstract concept with more natural than 'scripted' flow, which is a new thing both for them and for us, spectators. I think that despite having not so 'perfect scores', they still show off solid, engaging skating on a very high level - there's nothing to be ashamed of about it and calling it 'disaster'.

 

[bramweld]

Can we compile a list of how many teams would wish to experience the kind of massive catastrophe and disaster B/S are experiencing? Let's start with how many Russian teams have scored just about at the same level and with consistency in this quad - that they didn't even get the chance to compete fully? Can we get a number on that?

The conversation doesn't need to take this turn. What we're asking is this. Is this season's program, the FD that is better or more impactful than AK? If W/P looked at things objectively and realized they needed to bring back JSM whay can't B/S even consider the same? If this were my last competitive season these would be my thoughts. But IMHO, B/S are just being too nice and naive where Zhulin is concerned.

 

[coldblueeyes]

The conversation doesn't need to take this turn. What we're asking is this. Is this season's program, the FD that is better or more impactful than AK? If W/P looked at things objectively and realized they needed to bring back JSM whay can't B/S even consider the same? If this were my last competitive season these would be my thoughts. But IMHO, B/S are just being too nice and naive where Zhulin is concerned.

I don't think they should change, not even in the least. AK as a program followed them for two seasons already, and it probably doesn't bring many good memories if you consider that they were banned 'for fun' during the tail end of the 15-16 season. Also, I don't see where the program is any better than their FD now, it's not any more intricate, doesn't have better lifts (perhaps the straight line) or a spin, not even the step sequences are more detailed, so I don't see why they should go back to that program - especially considering they are getting most of the same scores they got back then. Also, I stand by my opinion that they got the short end of the stick in China, which wouldn't matter had they won in COR, but they didn't know the future, so not like they can do much about that.

And I don't really understand this talk about being nice, naive, too trusting of Zhulin, because yeah, they got bad programs with him, but they also have worked really hard to get to where they are, and I don't know if they would have achieved what they did together with any other coach in Russia.

 

[bramweld]

I don't think they should change, not even in the least. AK as a program followed them for two seasons already, and it probably doesn't bring many good memories if you consider that they were banned 'for fun' during the tail end of the 15-16 season. Also, I don't see where the program is any better than their FD now, it's not any more intricate, doesn't have better lifts (perhaps the straight line) or a spin, not even the step sequences are more detailed, so I don't see why they should go back to that program - especially considering they are getting most of the same scores they got back then. Also, I stand by my opinion that they got the short end of the stick in China, which wouldn't matter had they won in COR, but they didn't know the future, so not like they can do much about that.

And I don't really understand this talk about being nice, naive, too trusting of Zhulin, because yeah, they got bad programs with him, but they also have worked really hard to get to where they are, and I don't know if they would have achieved what they did together with any other coach in Russia.

That's a very defeatist attitude to have, don't you think? Who is putting themselves out there now, Zhulin or B/S? V/M called Marina on her favoritism in 2014 and they've come back to great success by trusting their instincts and running to Patch and Marie-France and they have never looked better in my opinion, their FD at SC was top notch.

All we're saying about B/S is we're disappointed that they never gave themselves a shot at better for their last competitive season. B/S experienced sheer hell with Zhulin the first time in 2014, training no less than four dances, ridiculous. From the moment they heard the SD music alone, that should have been a red flag. How that dance wasn't scrapped from test skates I do not know. In fact Zhulin has mentioned in interviews that he was advised to scrap it and he didn't so hey my feelings are twofold; either B/S really aren't serious about their prospects, Russia is really not invested in ID or both.

 

[gmyers]

Can we compile a list of how many teams would wish to experience the kind of massive catastrophe and disaster B/S are experiencing? Let's start with how many Russian teams have scored just about at the same level and with consistency in this quad - that they didn't even get the chance to compete fully? Can we get a number on that?

Yes lots of teams with no medals would be happy to have the medals b/s have won. The problem is why b/s want to go backwards rather than seek higher levels of success. They have won gp golds beating teams they lost to in recent weeks. That is not a good trajectory. They should be immediately Changing everything because they are falling behind and their season for them has to be the biggest disaster, disappointment, collapse that any ice dance team is experiencing. their programs are totally rejected by judges who hate them. They are losing to people they beat regularly! This is extreme emergency that needs quick attention and radical overhaul is required.

 

[uhh]

I'm not going to be as extreme as gmyers, but I do wonder if Stepanova/Bukin maybe have the opportunity to overtake Bobrova/Soloviev this season. I think the SDs are about the same, but S/B's FD, despite the terrible vocals is more accessible and plays to their strengths more than B/S's does.

If S/B have another strong showing at their next GP they will really be building momentum, and we saw in 2013/14 the way scores leaped for I/K when B/S were struggling and it looked like I/K would be the team would be the one to lead Russian ice dance for the next 4 years. I don't think it's impossible for S/B to beat C/B at IdF, and if that happens B/S will have a lot to worry abut at Nationals.

 

[gmyers]

I'm not going to be as extreme as gmyers, but I do wonder if Stepanova/Bukin maybe have the opportunity to overtake Bobrova/Soloviev this season. I think the SDs are about the same, but S/B's FD, despite the terrible vocals is more accessible and plays to their strengths more than B/S's does.

If S/B have another strong showing at their next GP they will really be building momentum, and we saw in 2013/14 the way scores leaped for I/K when B/S were struggling and it looked like I/K would be the team would be the one to lead Russian ice dance for the next 4 years. I don't think it's impossible for S/B to beat C/B at IdF, and if that happens B/S will have a lot to worry abut at Nationals.

It’d be very interesting if b/s finally lost the Russian title to s/b. I/k did usually make big errors at Russian nationals which is why they couldn’t even beat b/s in 2013 for 2014 title but b/s are almost always given the most enormous scores at Russian nationals. Internationallly s/b are still coached by Russians so I do not expect a defeat of c/b by s/b. S/b still don’t have the proper coaches or programs for big success.

 

[coldblueeyes]

That's a very defeatist attitude to have, don't you think? Who is putting themselves out there now, Zhulin or B/S? V/M called Marina on her favoritism in 2014 and they've come back to great success by trusting their instincts and running to Patch and Marie-France and they have never looked better in my opinion, their FD at SC was top notch.

All we're saying about B/S is we're disappointed that they never gave themselves a shot at better for their last competitive season. B/S experienced sheer hell with Zhulin the first time in 2014, training no less than four dances, ridiculous. From the moment they heard the SD music alone, that should have been a red flag. How that dance wasn't scrapped from test skates I do not know. In fact Zhulin has mentioned in interviews that he was advised to scrap it and he didn't so hey my feelings are twofold; either B/S really aren't serious about their prospects, Russia is really not invested in ID or both.

I don't think Zhulin is playing favorites at all? Or didn't you see S/K not being even close to the readiness B/S have at the moment, and I doubt they will in the current season. Also, I don't like much their SD, but it's their vehicle for the season, it works for them, and it' not scoring badly at all, the same with the FD. And where's the interview saying Zhulin was advised to scrap the SD? I didn't hear anything about that.

But where do you want them to go, and what do you want them to do? There's no way they are leaving Russia. No way. Dmitri has a son and Katia is married right now, they have their whole lives in Russia, and there's a good enviroment for them to train exactly where they are. And does Russia even has the money to send a skater to train out of the country right now? I don't even see why they should do it at this point, it won't make a difference to have half a season outside Russia. And if they want to change coaches, should they go to whom? Can you tell me honestly that there's a coach offering what they have with Zhulin in Russia?

And you should stop belittling their efforts, because it's their whole career on the line, I doubt it is something they are taking lightly. They are well trained, they are competing well. It could be better, yes, it could. Their mistake on the spin at COR took them out of the GPF, and the look on their faces at CoC said exactly what they thought of the scores they got. But people usually laugh at them protesting the scores, so I'm not gonna be the one to do that.

 

[madison]

I'm not going to be as extreme as gmyers, but I do wonder if Stepanova/Bukin maybe have the opportunity to overtake Bobrova/Soloviev this season. I think the SDs are about the same, but S/B's FD, despite the terrible vocals is more accessible and plays to their strengths more than B/S's does.

If S/B have another strong showing at their next GP they will really be building momentum, and we saw in 2013/14 the way scores leaped for I/K when B/S were struggling and it looked like I/K would be the team would be the one to lead Russian ice dance for the next 4 years. I don't think it's impossible for S/B to beat C/B at IdF, and if that happens B/S will have a lot to worry abut at Nationals.

I agree with your comment, just that Stepanova has such bad skating skills that everything is diminished (the fact that they have an accessible program, their romantic vibe etc). I don't see how this team could fight for the top spots in the future with her bad skating skills .
In my opinion, Tiff/John is the couple with the best potential and I hope they'll get the third spot to go to Europeans.

 

[coldblueeyes]

In my opinion, Tiff/John is the couple with the best potential and I hope they'll get the third spot to go to Europeans.

They'll have a close fight with Popova and Mozgov, who are much better regarded by the judges now.

 

[madison]

They'll have a close fight with Popova and Mozgov, who are much better regarded by the judges now.

Why do you say that?
I personally don't think it's true.
Maybe with S/K but I don't think the Fed will give them a spot to Europeans, unless they'll be foot perfect and achieve very high marks at the GPs

 

[madison]

Tiff and John are perfect together, very good match and also have personality on ice.. this is a team with huge potential, if they keep progressing (they seemed well trained at COC and with good programs)

 

[coldblueeyes]

Why do you say that?
I personally don't think it's true.
Maybe with S/K but I don't think the Fed will give them a spot to Europeans, unless they'll be foot perfect and achieve very high marks at the GPs

Right now I'd say they are pretty much in the same place, but P/M being favored is just a feeling I have. We'll have to see how things play out in the rest of the season.