2018 US Championships Sr Men SP

[medoroa]

Some of these comments on the last few pages have me

Y’all LOVE to hate on Tara and Johnny. They are annoying but make valid points. And for the record, Jason’s 3A was no more rotated than Vincent’s, so yes, it IS unfair for the tech panel to be inconsistent.

Agreed. I always read people's reactions to the US commentators and brace myself for awful cattiness, but usually my reaction is "That's it? That's what people were angry about???" :think: I just watched Jason Brown and what they said about him was on point AND they were giving him (deserved) high praise for everything but his 3A UR. From the way people talked about it, I thought they'd trashed him entirely (I like Brown so that'd have made me angry).

But as for the UR, in playback it looked like Brown was 95 degrees UR and Zhou was close to 180. I agree with Weiss.

 

[geige]

Fair enough, but I'd still rather watch Jimmy Ma's performance than hear about how much Tara likes bass. That performance was completely ruined for me by their blathering.

For sure haha the moment those 3 stop talking about technical content I want to reach for the mute button

 

[Skater Boy]

I hope your wish comes true (no sarcasm intended) Though, I think no male Olympic champion can beat Kulik's shockingly avant-garde giraffe patterned costume with very strong yellow in the next 100 years (he looked cute with THAT costume by the way).

A costume that requires that much thinking might not be so helpful in skating. It is tough enough for the average walker to figure out a triple from a double let alone an edge versus a toe jump and now costume issues? My brother walked in while I was watching Nathan and was wondering why he was wearing his practice gear.

 

[Skater Boy]

If Nathan hadn't established himself already internationally, even though he has two clean quads the USFS would have made Adam first.

Possible, I can see what you are saying. Nathan's pcs could be super low and he could have not had such generous GOE's; it was like Michelle Kwan versus the jumping beans she could still win on beauty and grace - though that was a DIFFERENT scoring system so it would be harder now. But I hear you. The judges are really pumping up Nathan for OGM though. Those pcs and scores will be over 300.

 

[Tavi...]

Well I guess the team is already determined then. Raffie's two sons and Brown.

No, I don’t think so. I’m guessing it would probably be difficult for Grant, in particular, to make the team because his 2017 international results were not very good, and his ISU PB is quite low. But Auxier didn’t specify exactly when / how the body of work criteria will be used. Vincent has a 5-quad FS, and if he hits all his jumps and/or Jason bombs, it’s conceivable he would be sent. USFS clearly likes both Vincent and Jason. We’ll just have to wait and see.

 

[Skater Boy]

No, I don’t think so. I’m guessing it would probably be difficult for Grant, in particular, to make the team because his 2017 international results were not very good, and his ISU PB is quite low. But Auxier didn’t specify exactly when / how the body of work criteria will be used. Vincent has a 5-quad FS, and if he hits all his jumps and/or Jason bombs, it’s conceivable he would be sent. USFS clearly likes both Vincent and Jason. We’ll just have to wait and see.

Grant surprised me in a good way; he earned good marks and has a quad. But the judges find a way to keep Jason. I noticed when Ashley, Jason et al made errors some of them really tried to sell they "did well" as though to encourage the judges to score them highly. I don't know about Jason's UR but without a quad you need to be clean imho. Still those quads flips and lutzes are worth so so much it almost makes beautiful skating seem senseless, worthless and pointless excuse the pun - sorry Chan fans, Brown fans et al. a fall on a fully rotated quad lutz is still massive scores. Like an extra triple -hard triple to your score. So strategically it avoids the zayak rule you can almost "get" an extra hard triple in your score - yes it may effect pcs but a quick fall or two on difficult quads could be worth it still to the score (not necessarily the beauty of the program but it is the score that counts).

 

[snowflake]

Just watched them. Thanks to Mr Marqus.

Glad I didn’t get up in the night after all since I read that the youtube channel didn’t work well.

Firstly: so so sad for Max. I wish he hadn’t said in the interview that he already lost the olympic spot. Probably true, but it aint’over…..etc. GO Max in your free program!

Happy for Adam who is my favorite US skater this season. Glad to see him skate his best sp so far. Happy also for Grant to have his best short performance here. I don’t know why Jason has problems with the 3-axel. Everything else was good. Vincent is surely working on his quads and sooner or later he'll get the full rotations. Hope it's tomorrow

Lots of good performances from the lower ranked; seniors just happy to be here and juniors competing for future international events. No one mentioned nobody forgotten. Well done guys! Love the diversity of US men. Very entertaining competition

I’ve read so much bad about Tara and Johnny’s commentating that I’m surprised to not being that bothered by them. Aren’t they primarily talking to non-figureskating-überfans? They make some fair points and I think they are mostly talking(OK a bit too much ) positivly of the skaters, in a good mood laughing and giving their own opinions, to agree with or not.

Here’s their take on Jason’s 3-axel for everyone to judge


By the way I love Nathan’s new outfit. The stripes look cool when he moves, jumps and spins. Did Vera design Rafael’s costume as well?

Dancing with Adam in his new fashion style.

 

[Mathman]

As to who will make the Olympic Team, in a press conference the other day, USFS President Sam Auxier emphasized that the Body of Work criteria are part of the selection process. Based on those criteria, skaters who placed poorly in their international assignments in 2017, and who have low international scores, are unlikely to make the Olympic Team no matter how well they perform at Nats.

I'm not so sure about that. (Who are you going to believe, me or Mr. Auxier? )

Placement at Nationals is the number one, tier one, criterion. Then it drifts down to criteria that are less heavily weighted, such as last year's worlds, grand prix medals, etc. Results previous to last year do not count at all.

I think that Sam Auxier is just covering all his bases, in case a situation like Mirai vs. Ashley situation develops this year.

 

[AngelENTL]

By the way I love Nathan’s new outfit. The stripes look cool when he moves, jumps and spins. Did Vera design Rafael’s costume as well?

I don't mind the outfit in and of itself; I just don't think it goes with his short program and the music. Something a little earthier and more accessible but still sharp would fit the bill. Actually, I feel like the new outfit would go better with his long program. Maybe she gave him two new outfits and he wore the wrong one for this program...?

 

[Mrs. P]

I’ve read so much bad about Tara and Johnny’s commentating that I’m surprised to not being that bothered by them. Aren’t they primarily talking to non-figureskating-überfans? They make some fair points and I think they are mostly talking(OK a bit too much ) positivly of the skaters, in a good mood laughing and giving their own opinions, to agree with or not.

I just watched the NBC video myself and I agree it wasn't bad or excessively harsh. I do disagree with some of their points:

* Grant Hochstein is suddenly competitive with the world because he had one good short program?
* I think it's super super important to note that the judges don't access to the same camera angle they do. I think from what I could see from looking at the judging panel, they only have the full-body replay, they don't have access to the super close-up slow-mo.
* I think it's odd that people act like skating is the ONLY sport where calls are made and disagree upon. While football/basketball are far less subjective, there are calls that do make a difference in results and the commentators/refs disagree quite a bit.

 

[Tavi...]

@Skater Boy, I also thought Grant gave a wonderful performance, and he was well rewarded for it. But IMO it’s not a question of “the judges finding a way to keep Jason.” Jason made one error. He otherwise skated very well, and even though he didn’t include a quad, his program was still very difficult because of the footwork and transitions. He was dinged nearly 2 points on the 3A for the landing and rewarded highly for the rest of a difficult program that - whether people “like” it or not, was very well performed. I don’t think there’s some big conspiracy to hold up Jason. I think from the view point of the tech panel, rotation on the 3A was borderline, and they gave him the benefit of the doubt. He’s certainly been called on < before, both internationally and nationally. It’s not like he always gets a pass.

@snowflake, thank you for posting that clip of Johnny and Tara’s commentary on the 3A. I think it was fine for them to point the < they saw out. What wasn’t fine IMO was for Johnny in his role as commentator to complain that it was unfair to other skaters. He has a responsibility to educate television viewers that what they are seeing on the NBC feed is not necessarily the same feed the tech panel are reviewing. He didn’t do that. I have sat in live competitions behind the tech panel and have seen them reviewing elements. I’ve also seen where the NBC camera shot from in those competitions, and was not near the tech panel. And I would add that in the competitions I’ve been at where Johnny and Tara commentated, their desk was placed on the opposite side of the rink from the tech panel, much closer to the KnC. So even what Johnny and Tara saw live was different than what the judges and tech panel saw.

 

[AngelENTL]

* I think it's odd that people act like skating is the ONLY sport where calls are made and disagree upon. While football/basketball are far less subjective, there are calls that do make a difference in results and the commentators/refs disagree quite a bit.

True, but in skating there seems to be a pattern of calls going for or against a particular party, arguably based in part on reputation, and I don't think an analogous thing happens in, say, football -- i.e., calls don't always go against the Browns just b/c they have a reputation for sucking this season, yet questionable rotation for Mirai? CARROTS! (though admittedly that didn't happen in the SP)

 

[Miss Ice]

@snowflake, thank you for posting that clip of Johnny and Tara’s commentary on the 3A. I think it was fine for them to point the < they saw out. What wasn’t fine IMO was for Johnny in his role as commentator to complain that it was unfair to other skaters. He has a responsibility to educate television viewers that what they are seeing on the NBC feed is not necessarily the same feed the tech panel are reviewing. He didn’t do that. I have sat in live competitions behind the tech panel and have seen them reviewing elements. I’ve also seen where the NBC camera shot from in those competitions, and was not near the tech panel. And I would add that in the competitions I’ve been at where Johnny and Tara commentated, their desk was placed on the opposite side of the rink from the tech panel, much closer to the KnC. So even what Johnny and Tara saw live was different than what the judges and tech panel saw.

It doesn't matter "who saw what". What matters is that Jason's 3A was UR and double footed, and should have had more negative GOE. This is unfair to other skaters, especially Nathan who rotated fully and had a minor step out. This is a sport, not a popularity contest. In any other sport (like rhythmic gymnastic) another coach would file a complaint and his 3A would likely get called UR after a second review.

 

[Mrs. P]

It doesn't matter "who saw what". What matters is that Jason's 3A was UR and double footed, and should have had more negative GOE. This is unfair to other skaters, especially Nathan who rotated fully and had a minor step out. This is a sport, not a popularity contest. In any other sport (like rhythmic gymnastic) another coach would file a complaint and his 3A would likely get called UR after a second review.

It does matter because depending on the angle of the replay or the amount of time they had to review they might have not seen the clear UR. It's really easy for us armchair folks to look at the NBC footage over and over again and say yes it's definitely UR, but the tech panel doesn't have that same luxury.

I would have been fine if it was called UR, actually.. But sport has room for varying views too. Again, while a different vibe (thanks angelentl for your post) people make disputable calls in other sports and people disagree over it.

 

[Icey]

It doesn't matter "who saw what". What matters is that Jason's 3A was UR and double footed, and should have had more negative GOE. This is unfair to other skaters, especially Nathan who rotated fully and had a minor step out. This is a sport, not a popularity contest. In any other sport (like rhythmic gymnastic) another coach would file a complaint and his 3A would likely get called UR after a second review.

I'm one of those who thinks Figure Skating coaches should be able to file complaints.

How many jumps in his lp will Max have to convert to quads to possibly undo the damage of his poor short.

 

[Mrs. P]

True, but in skating there seems to be a pattern of calls going for or against a particular party, arguably based in part on reputation, and I don't think an analogous thing happens in, say, football -- i.e., calls don't always go against the Browns just b/c they have a reputation for sucking this season, yet questionable rotation for Mirai? CARROTS! (though admittedly that didn't happen in the SP)

Yes I agree with that the vibe is different, but the premise is similar in that commentators have tons of discussions over ref calls and how refs should approach it. One thing I found interesting is that refs in basketball can review whether a ball is out of bounds but they can't review a play where a foul is overlooked. There's also a lot of discussion in basketball over whether there is excessive replays in the sport.

 

[bobbob]

For underrotations or levels it seems like there isn't an avenue to protest after the fact, though if it's a number of revolutions issue you can protest after the fact. Doesn't seem right to me, because both relate to what element was completed.

 

[Mrs. P]

For underrotations or levels it seems like there isn't an avenue to protest after the fact, though if it's a number of revolutions issue you can protest after the fact. Doesn't seem right to me, because both relate to what element was completed.

Just putting it out there. You can dispute your own technical calls. I've seen it a few times. I remember at Cup of China in 2013, Pechalat and Bourzat protested a level call and I think they ruled in their favor.

 

[Mathman]

True, but in skating there seems to be a pattern of calls going for or against a particular party, arguably based in part on reputation, and I don't think an analogous thing happens in, say, football ...

It certainly happens in basketball. Michael Jordan was always allowed to take an extra step without being called for traveling. This got so blatant that the NBA eventually changed the rule to allow greater leeway on traveling calls.

Wilt Chamberlain never, in his whole career, fouled out of a game. They were quite up front about it: the customers were paying to see Chamberlain play, not to see him sitting on the bench with five fouls. In general, the referees let the stars get away with a lot of stuff that they call lesser players for.

 

[museksk8r]

Why should Jason Brown get the "benefit of the doubt" on his 3Axel of all things? It's not like it's normally a strong, consistent element for him. He has had many errors with that jump this season. I am not a fan of Tara and Johnny's commentary normally, but I give them props for acknowledging the truth on broadcast tv that this failure to nitpick these technical calls on under-rotations and two-footed landings, especially at an event as critical as an Olympic trials, is what kills figure skating as a sport and makes it lack real credibility.

I am also not saying that one really strong short program from Grant all of a sudden makes him an Olympic medal contender. I am, however, a very strong advocate for fairness. Imagine if it was your favorite skater who was wrongly placed behind someone who had a major technical error go unnoticed. Brown is at least 3 points ahead in this competition because his missed 3Axel was called incorrectly. This is a sport where fates are determined by tenths of a point and with that said, 3 points are huge.