2018 US Men's Oly/World/4CC team announced

[eggnogkitty]

I would have actually dropped Zhou from the team. Honestly he doesnt have any semi significant international results outside of juniors also so if Rippon is put on the team it should be at the expense of 3rd place finisher Zhou, not 2nd place finisher Miner. Furthermore it is far more consistent with what they did with the womens situation in 2014. If they bumped Nagasu instead of Edmunds, then clearly Zhou should be bumped (if anyone is) instead of Miner. Yet Miner who is basically Edmunds 4 years ago minus that he isnt 15 and seen as a potential future star, is not even 1st alternate. The hypocricy and manipulated standards of the USFSA are comical.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I don’t really mind body of work for World team consideration. There are future berths on the line after all. The thing is the Olympics aren’t about the athletes or their careers. It’s about representing your country and I think ever athlete from America who has invested their time and money into the USFSA should have an equal chance to do so. That should be the vision behind the US Championship. The dream shouldn’t be sacrificed for skaters who fail to rise to this challenge and reputations shouldn’t be enough to skirt the process. Losing is a part of all sports.

That’s my opinion...I’m sticking to it. US Nationals should mean something!!

 

[eggnogkitty]

Something that needs to be realized by people who think Vincent has a "body of work" over Ross and has scored better than him internationally - Vincent had SEVEN underrotated Quads in international competition this season that were not called. An underrotation call on a Quad results in a loss of about 4 points on average. So these numbers listed earlier:



Zhou's should actually be 28 points less in technical merit, approximately, resulting in an average score that is 9+ points less. That's just the technical score too. How do you think the judges would treat Zhou on the PCS if he was labelled a chronic underrotater? If history is anything to go by, his PCS would drop. So in the end Vincent Zhou's international showing is actually nothing worth considering over Ross. His underrotations were deservedly called out at Nationals and he now has the label of "bad technique" on him, this will follow him into international competition from here on out.

The only thing really worth considering between Ross and Vincent is their showing at Nationals, as neither of them have done anything relevant in international competition. Ross won, skating better than Vincent ever has as a senior. The committee said they wanted to send the team with the highest chance of getting a medal. Ross scoring higher than Vincent ever has means he has shown the greater capability of delivering a competition performance that could possibly reach a medal.

Neither of them have a hope in hell of getting a medal, but otherwise 100% agree with everything you said. The team, if Rippon were to be put on it which I can atleast understand, should clearly be Chen, Miner, and Rippon. The decision never should have involved Miner, he should have been a lock after finishing 2nd, and only been between Zhou and Rippon. USFSA is a corrupt joke.

 

[eggnogkitty]

I don’t really mind body of work for World team consideration. There are future berths on the line after all. The thing is the Olympics aren’t about the athletes or their careers. It’s about representing your country and I think ever athlete from America who has invested their time and money into the USFSA should have an equal chance to do so. That should be the vision behind the US Championship. The dream shouldn’t be sacrificed for skaters who fail to rise to this challenge and reputations shouldn’t be enough to skirt the process. Losing is a part of all sports.

That’s my opinion...I’m sticking to it. US Nationals should mean something!!

Agreed. And nobody besides Chen is ever going to medal anyway, that is crystal clear. Not even in the biggest splat fest ever, which a lot of the mens event has been all season.

 

[eggnogkitty]

No, Adam outskated Jason ALL season long. He also had the best international showing of any guy (besides Nathen Chen of course) last season. Adam actually has the "body of work" to merit his silly flubs at Nationals being discounted. He's shown the ability to score higher than anyone besides Nathan.

Agreed, and Jason was also 6th at Nationals, not 4th. There is no justification for him being considered for anything after his Nationals showing, not even a 1st alternate. Not unless he were a world medalist or something, or Nationals is now not merely a factor, but completely meaningless.

 

[Mrs. P]

One scenario worth considering is sending Ross and Adam to the Olympics and Vincent and Jason to Worlds. Nathan gets to go to both obviously.

I think a world team of Nathan, Vincent and Jason would be a good combination -- Jason gets high PCS, Vincent gets high TES (even higher than Nathan at certain points) and Nathan is the medal contender. Jason gets recognized for his contribution of three spots -- and he tends to peak later in the season (though this season has completely been off-kilter, so who knows) and Vincent gets valuable Worlds experience. I'd also send Vincent and Jason to 4CC for another tune-up of their programs.

I think Ross as the comeback kid and Adam as the first openly gay athlete would be very compelling storylines for the Olympics (not that should be a reason to choose someone, but just noting the nice mix of having both of them on the team). I also think that making the Olympic team is a perfect end game for both of them (if they should decide to retire) and then they don't have to peak twice at Worlds for 3 spots.

And there's some precedent for this in 2014 when Max went to Worlds and Jason went to the Olympics when there were just two spots.

 

[qwertyskates]

I guess one scenario I would have considered is sending Ross and Adam to the Olympics and Vincent and Jason to Worlds.

I think a world team of Nathan, Vincent and Jason would be a good combination -- Jason gets high PCS, Vincent gets high TES (even higher than Nathan at certain points) and Nathan is the medal contender. Jason gets recognized for his contribution of three spots -- and he tends to peak later in the season (though this season has completely been off-kilter, so who knows) and Vincent gets valuable Worlds experience. I'd also send Vincent and Jason to 4CC for another tune-up of their programs.

I think Ross as the comeback kid and Adam as the first openly gay athlete would be very compelling storylines for the Olympics (not that should be a reason to choose someone, but just noting the nice mix of having both of them on the team).

This sounds so reasonable. Can I nominate you to the Olympic Selection Committee?:clapper:

 

[Mrs. P]

This sounds so reasonable. Can I nominate you to the Olympic Selection Committee?:clapper:

Aw.

I'd also add that I'd send Grant to 4CC with Vincent and Jason. So basically everyone in the top six gets something (though, sorry Max). Or if you even wanted Max, you could opt to send Vincent, Max and Grant and give Jason time to regroup.

Also this solution accounts for both Nationals/BOW:

Olympics: Ross gets in for his 2nd place finish; Adam gets in for his BOW
4CC: Vincent gets additional tune-up and a shot at a championship medal (and valuable ISU points!) Grant gets in for 5th place finish at Nationals and Max is acknowledged for a solid, if not perfect GP season.
Worlds: Jason for helping bring back 3 spots (BOW), Vincent to get Worlds experience (and 3rd place Nationals finish).

 

[el henry]

No, Adam outskated Jason ALL season long. He also had the best international showing of any guy (besides Nathen Chen of course) last season. Adam actually has the "body of work" to merit his silly flubs at Nationals being discounted. He's shown the ability to score higher than anyone besides Nathan.

The way you say that makes it sound to me as though Adam were first and Jason were last in every comp. Adam had marginally better results going into Nats, and outplaced Jason 4th to 6th at Nats. Yes, Adam had a better season *this year* than Jason, (of course up until this year, Jason has beaten Adam in every head to head comp, but this year counts, and that’s not this year) but Adam didn’t exactly run away from Jason this year with his results.

But that’s not the true comparison here. The comparison is Adam v. Ross and Jason v. Ross, not Adam v. Jason. And, by every measure that USFS claims to use, both Adam *and* Jason outscore Ross. Jason had a far better season, going into Nats, than Ross. It’s not some understandable, wonderful, reasonable result to have Adam over Ross, but some outrage against skating humanity to have Jason over Ross.

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again, personally I would just send the top three at Nats to the Olys. I also totally agree with you about Vincent Zhou. If a skater were to be replaced, it should have been Vincent, not Ross. I don’t care if when the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars Vincent might land five quads. He’s not soup yet, he’s not even bouillon.

But TPTB have spoken, and we have the team we have.

 

[eggnogkitty]

Again Rippon was 4th at Nationals, Jason was 6th. That is the biggest difference of all. Nobody with the general results of Jason OR Adam should even be considered with a 6th place at Nationals. If they are there is some massive corruption in place (the real truth) or Nationals has become not only no longer the only factor, but meaningless. If Adam was 6th and put on the team, I think people, even those defending his place now, would say it was ridiculous also.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

One scenario, worth considering is sending Ross and Adam to the Olympics and Vincent and Jason to Worlds. Nathan gets to go to both obviously.

I would have liked to see some assignment for Ross, probably Worlds. It would have be nice for either Adam or Vincent to be assigned only to the Olympics to make that happen.

 

[eggnogkitty]

One scenario, worth considering is sending Ross and Adam to the Olympics and Vincent and Jason to Worlds. Nathan gets to go to both obviously.

I think a world team of Nathan, Vincent and Jason would be a good combination -- Jason gets high PCS, Vincent gets high TES (even higher than Nathan at certain points) and Nathan is the medal contender. Jason gets recognized for his contribution of three spots -- and he tends to peak later in the season (though this season has completely been off-kilter, so who knows) and Vincent gets valuable Worlds experience. I'd also send Vincent and Jason to 4CC for another tune-up of their programs.

I think Ross as the comeback kid and Adam as the first openly gay athlete would be very compelling storylines for the Olympics (not that should be a reason to choose someone, but just noting the nice mix of having both of them on the team). I also think that making the Olympic team is a perfect end game for both of them (if they should decide to retire) and then they don't have to peak twice at Worlds for 3 spots.

And there's some precedent for this in 2014 when Max went to Worlds and Jason went to the Olympics when there were just two spots.

That is an interesting suggestion. While unorthodox I would have been game for that. It probably would have also kept almost everyone happy (except for perhaps Rippon).

- - - Updated - - -

I would have liked to see some assignment for Ross, probably Worlds. It would have be nice for either Adam or Vincent to be assigned only to the Olympics to make that happen.

Yes and as others have said Ross at the Olympics is no risk. The 2nd and 3rd U.S man is never winning a medal, anyone who thinks otherwise is utterly delusional, and there are no team spots on the line for next year.

 

[Mrs. P]

Regarding my scenario, there is a second precedent. In 2011, they sent three men (4-6. - Jeremy, Adam and Armin) to 4CC and the top 3 (Ryan, Richard and Ross)to Worlds. It's not prefectly comparable, but there is at least some history of spreading the wealth.

I'd also add we do have 5 men in the top 10 on the season's best list. I think we should find a way to make use of that depth. I think usfs tried to do that, but did it in the worst way possible.

 

[NAOTMAA]

You know the this that really clinches all of it for me isn't Ross not being 1st alternate for Olympics or worlds (that's extremely maddening!) but that fact that Grant, who finished 5th, couldn't even get an assignment to 4CC and was bypassed by someone who barely made the top 10 (I love Max but really? ). The guy was a pewter medalist the last two nationals and top 5 for a third consecutive year. I know 4CC is gaining in importance but seriously that's a joke. This right here shows just how flawed the USFSA thinking is!

And how does one gain a "body of work" when the chances of doing so is limited for so many Competing at senior Bs doesn't come close to competing in the GP series. What other competitions are there for them? If they employ this "body of work" method exactly as they just did in picking this men's team then the US will have an extremely small pool of skaters to choose from year after year. It will be same team, or close to, year after year. That will surely do wonders for skating's popularity in the US :hslap:

 

[Blades of Passion]

One scenario worth considering is sending Ross and Adam to the Olympics and Vincent and Jason to Worlds. Nathan gets to go to both obviously

Jason can't be sent to Worlds in his present condition, he is not skating well. 2nd alternate at both events is the very most he should get, he needs to end his season at 4CC and start figuring out how to fix the jump issues so he can be a competitor in the next quadrennial.

 

[fenway3]

This is exactly what I was pointing out in the U.S. men's thread. USFS need to say TO THE VERY DETAIL what was being factored. I understand they don't want to reveal every aspect of the process, but at least enough so it's really clear that Nationals is just ONE competition out of many that are being considered. Yes, while there was a list -- it was just a list. What are media/stakeholders supposed to do with that.

I'd be interested to hear what, if anything, was mentioned at Champs Camp or other monitoring sessions regarding the Olympic criteria. If Mark Mitchell was THAT confused and frustrated, that tells me USFS didn't do their job.

I think this whole "body of work" criterion is just smoke and mirrors. It provides a wonderful cover for USFS to do whatever they want behind the scenes, while convincing some viewers that it's a highly objective, systematic process.

The thing is, citing BOW is just so handy-dandy for any decision. I mean, how exactly is anybody going to prove that they didn't reason everything out according to their own vague criteria? It's nearly impossible. And that's probably why they found the idea so attractive.

The official USFS motto seems to be:

Opacity over veracity, any day of the week!! :sarcasm:

 

[ice coverage]

One scenario worth considering is sending Ross and Adam to the Olympics and Vincent and Jason to Worlds. Nathan gets to go to both obviously. ...

And there's some precedent for this in 2014 when Max went to Worlds and Jason went to the Olympics when there were just two spots.

My two cents:

I think there's a potential pitfall here.

In 2014, the USFS had published criteria for Worlds that were different from the criteria for Sochi.
So not unthinkable in 2014 that the Worlds selections could be different from the Olympic selections.

Have the 2018 Worlds selection criteria been published and/or officially acknowledged to be the same as for 2018 OWG?
IIRC, leafygreens could see on the USFS members-only site that the 2018 criteria were the same for Worlds and OWG?

If so, then I think it would only stir up more controversy if the selections differed although the selection criteria were the same for both.
Meaning that the criteria were applied in different ways, and are not "reproducible," so to speak.​

 

[Mrs. P]

My two cents:

I think there's a potential pitfall here.

In 2014, the USFS had published criteria for Worlds that were different from the criteria for Sochi.
So not unthinkable in 2014 that the Worlds selections could be different from the Olympic selections.

Have the 2018 Worlds selection criteria been published and/or officially acknowledged to be the same as for 2018 OWG?
IIRC, leafygreens could see on the USFS members-only site that the 2018 criteria were the same for Worlds and OWG?

If so, then I think it would only stir up more controversy if the selections differed although the selection criteria were the same for both.
Meaning that the criteria were applied in different ways, and are not "reproducible," so to speak.​

Well thankfully this scenario is only in my head then.

 

[Tavi...]

You know the this that really clinches all of it for me isn't Ross not being 1st alternate for Olympics or worlds (that's extremely maddening!) but that fact that Grant, who finished 5th, couldn't even get an assignment to 4CC and was bypassed by someone who barely made the top 10 (I love Max but really? ). The guy was a pewter medalist the last two nationals and top 5 for a third consecutive year. I know 4CC is gaining in importance but seriously that's a joke. This right here shows just how flawed the USFSA thinking is!

And how does one gain a "body of work" when the chances of doing so is limited for so many Competing at senior Bs doesn't come close to competing in the GP series. What other competitions are there for them? If they employ this "body of work" method exactly as they just did in picking this men's team then the US will have an extremely small pool of skaters to choose from year after year. It will be same team, or close to, year after year. That will surely do wonders for skating's popularity in the US :hslap:

Skaters get assigned to senior Bs by doing well at the junior level and in summer competitions. By going to senior Bs and earning ranking points and high scores, many skaters position themselves for GP assignments the following season. In the past, medalling at Junior Worlds was also a path to at least one GP assignment.

In 2014, Jason, a first year senior, was assigned to one senior b (Nebelhorn) and qualified to one Grand Prix (France) (either by medalling at Junior Worlds or by having a top 24 Sb score). Because he did well at Nebelhorn, when Evan Lysacek withdrew, USFS assigned Jason to Skate America. Subsequently he was sent to Sochi. The following year, he had earned enough ranking points to qualify for two Grand Prix assignments outright.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Something that needs to be realized by people who think Vincent has a "body of work" over Ross and has scored better than him internationally - Vincent had SEVEN underrotated Quads in international competition this season that were not called. An underrotation call on a Quad results in a loss of about 4 points on average. So these numbers listed earlier:



Zhou's should actually be 28 points less in technical merit, approximately, resulting in an average score that is 9+ points less. That's just the technical score too. How do you think the judges would treat Zhou on the PCS if he was labelled a chronic underrotater? If history is anything to go by, his PCS would drop. So in the end Vincent Zhou's international showing is actually nothing worth considering over Ross. His underrotations were deservedly called out at Nationals and he now has the label of "bad technique" on him, this will follow him into international competition from here on out.

The only thing really worth considering between Ross and Vincent is their showing at Nationals, as neither of them have done anything relevant in international competition. Ross won, skating better than Vincent ever has as a senior. The committee said they wanted to send the team with the highest chance of getting a medal. Ross scoring higher than Vincent ever has means he has shown the greater capability of delivering a competition performance that could possibly reach a medal.

SEVEN in your opinion. And even underrotated you wanna talk Ross' quad record because you're gonna see a lot of doubles/triples. Which are worse than <.

Underrotations deservedly called at Nationals and now has a label of bad technique that will be a problem in international competition, eh? Gosh, sounds like you're talking about Karen. :sarcasm: