Will any of these U.S junior ladies have an impact on senior nationals this year?

[sk8n4fun]

Don't think so. Senior judges are less lenient. Caroline does have an egregious flutz, she hasn't mastered the salchow, and her ice coverage isn't as good as the top Senior ladies. Her presentation isn't well developed yet, either. Give her another year and then we will see how she stacks up.

I've seen Caroline in person and she is absolutely beautiful. Her presentation is very mature. True, Caroline flutzes but she is the kind of skater that is so talented that she inspires conversation after conversation and has done that for many years. Her skating is mesmerizing and she brings many people to tears when they watch her. I'm so happy she has cleaned up her jumps. Judging from the kind of progress she seems to make from year to year, barring disaster, she will fix her jump flaws and then she just might be unbeatable - at any level. I think the seniors this year should be very relieved that Caroline isn't their competition at Nationals.

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for joining us, Sk8n4fun, and welcome to Golden Skate. Post often, post long!

It's exciting to be able to spot a rising star. That way , when she starts winning world championships, we can say, "See, what did I tell you!"

 

[chuckm]

I have no doubt that Caroline has the potential to be a World champion. But she is only 13, and is tiny and undeveloped. There is no telling what puberty will do to her body and to her jumps, so it's best to enjoy her as she is now, a supremely talented Junior. We can hope that the puberty bug bites her gently and that she will be as successful in the next phase of her career as she is in this one.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I was thinking the exact same thing. Although three of those skaters never competed under COP"s the other has. I am not a jump technique expert but do any of the other current crop of senior ladies flutz?

It seems that CoP will only give a -1 GoE for a flutz so she will get the benefit of the jump. This will allow her the most allowed jump passes in a routine. Not unusual for American Ladies in general.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

It seems that CoP will only give a -1 GoE for a flutz so she will get the benefit of the jump. This will allow her the most allowed jump passes in a routine. Not unusual for American Ladies in general.

Joe

That's if they bother to makr the jump correctly - Sasha seems to have managed to pull both 0s and +1s for her Lutz combination despite a very severe Flutz. As a coach trying to get results for my skater i'd tell her not to even give her flutz a second thought - the judges don't appear to. As a coach not worried about result but pure technique i'd try to break the jump back down all the way to the single and relearn it from a proper outside edge.

Ant

 

[Mafke]

As a coach not worried about result but pure technique i'd try to break the jump back down all the way to the single and relearn it from a proper outside edge.

As a coach not worried about result but pure technique, I'd break down almost all of her skating to make her learn edges, maybe starting with some patch ice time and only then start back with a single lutz, if she can't hold an edge (and even her biggest fans probably realize that's not her strong suit) then she'll never get the lutz.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Isn't it up to the Tech Specialist to call it a bad take-off or is it up to the Judges?

 

[antmanb]

As a coach not worried about result but pure technique, I'd break down almost all of her skating to make her learn edges, maybe starting with some patch ice time and only then start back with a single lutz, if she can't hold an edge (and even her biggest fans probably realize that's not her strong suit) then she'll never get the lutz.

I was actually talking about Caroline Zhang who i do think has pretty good edges, and looking at slo mos of both her flip and flutz i think its a funny picking technique couple with a funky hip thing she does rather than a problem controlling the edge. Plus i think she is young enough to relearn the jump now...and will, in all liklihood, have to revisit all of her jumps and technique for them when puberty starts to hit.

Sasha's i think is all about edge control since she wobbles like Lipiniski going into both flip and flutz, and at this relatively late stage i don't think she'll bother deconstructing the jump to get it right.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Isn't it up to the Tech Specialist to call it a bad take-off or is it up to the Judges?

Yes and no! The tech specialist will call a jump "downgraded" if the cheat on take off or landing is sufficient to warrant a downgrade.

The judges take GOE points for the severity of the cheat/underrotation.

In the case of the case of a Flutz or a'lip its only in the judges hands since the Tech Specialist calls the "lutz" or "flip" and teh Judges (supposedly!) take the GOE for severity of the "change of edge" going into the jump.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Thanks for the info, Ant. But you know as well as I do that judges will not agree in their scoring.

When I go to a competition I try to sit in a seat directly across from the judges (and Tech Specialist) so I get the same view they have. I prefer the 50 yard line to the tops of the oval. I agree with Wylie that Lambiel landed the 3A properly in Calgary.

Joe

 

[dizzydi7]

Will any of these US junior ladies..........

SK8addict,

I agree with you regarding Caroline Zhang, I think her presentation right now at 13 years old is better than Kimmie and Emily. Caroline has amazing poise, grace and musicality which is something I feel is a talent not something than can be developed or taught.

Dizzy

 

[Mafke]

I was actually talking about Caroline Zhang who i do think has pretty good edges, and looking at slo mos of both her flip and flutz i think its a funny picking technique couple with a funky hip thing she does rather than a problem controlling the edge.

Plus i think she is young enough to relearn the jump now...and will, in all liklihood, have to revisit all of her jumps and technique for them when puberty starts to hit.

Oh.... you're one of those unreasonable people who expect others to understand what you've read before commenting.
Anyhoo, I'd say the funny picking technique and funky hip thing are symptoms of not being able to hold the edge while she's preparing to do something else.
Possibly she's also making the beginning skater mistake of thinking that the entrance (skate backwards and reach back and pick with your landing leg) defines the jump rather than the edge (take off on the back outside edge of your non-landing leg).
What little I've seen of Zhang on youtube is mighty impressive, better musicality and carriage than many seniors. OTOH Ia skater as young and with as much potential at that age makes me wistful. As you note, it's quite possible that once puberty hits she'll be effectively back at zero or thereabouts and may or may not get the jumps back. I wish she'd concentrate on the jumps she can do right now and not even think about the lutz until after puberty.

 

[Mathman]

It seems that CoP will only give a -1 GoE for a flutz so she will get the benefit of the jump.

I believe that the ISU is trying at least to give some "lip" service to addressing the Flutz issue this year. The new 2006-2007 guidelines for GOE say "starting from the wrong edge (depending on length), -1 to -3 GOE, -GOE."

I think the "-GOE" at the end means that if you Flutz then the judges must give you a negative total GOE on that element. That is, you cannot make up for an improper takeoff edge by being outstanding in the other aspects of the jump (height, flow on the landing, etc.)

It remains to be seen whether the judges will actually follow/enforce these rules or not.

It is interesting that the rules talk about the length of the wrong takeoff edge, rather than the severity. So presumably if you can hold an outside edge for a while, then switch over to the wrong edge at the last second, that is only a -1 deduction.

On the other side, it seems like this is giving a green light to the Technical Specialist and his crew to call the jump a Lutz even though it takes off from a long undisguised inside edge, as long as it is "intended" to be a Lutz and is porperly Lutzy in other respects, such as counterrotation of the body, etc.

So I guess the bottom line for American ladies -- do it the best you can, and you'll still get a plus three total points out of the element no matter how bad your takeoff is. (Even if you fall on your Flutz, you still end up with +2 points if you complete the rotations.)

BTW, for the 2008-2009 season a Lutz out of footwork is required in the senior ladies' short program. So maybe they are giving notice that they will expect skaters to clean up their acts in the future.

 

[Skye]

I believe that the ISU is trying at least to give some "lip" service to addressing the Flutz issue this year. The new 2006-2007 guidelines for GOE say "starting from the wrong edge (depending on length), -1 to -3 GOE, -GOE."

I think the "-GOE" at the end means that if you Flutz then the judges must give you a negative total GOE on that element. That is, you cannot make up for an improper takeoff edge by being outstanding in the other aspects of the jump (height, flow on the landing, etc.)

It remains to be seen whether the judges will actually follow/enforce these rules or not.

This is correct. For example, Caroline Zhang's flutz at JGP Taipei were penalized with -1 GOEs in both the short program and long program. Not that it hurt the final result, but still a sign that judges ARE paying attention to rule changes.

BTW, for the 2008-2009 season a Lutz out of footwork is required in the senior ladies' short program.

I thought only juniors had requirements for the type of solo jump out of footwork in their short program. In senior, it doesn't matter as long as it's a triple - no?

 

[SeaniBu]

...and flexibility is not the same as having true artistry and presentation.

My question would be how much is that going to matter to the COP, enough to make a difference?


BTW, I guess I am too easily impressed As far as artistry and presentation I would put her equal with Kimmie. Again, what do I know?

 

[Skye]

As far as artistry and presentation I would put her equal with Kimmie. Again, what do I know?

As far as artistry and presentation, I would put Caroline Zhang ABOVE Kimmie Meissner. Kimmie might have better speed, stronger edges and more intricate choreography, but IMO has a lot of homework to do when it comes to interpreting her programs and skating to the music. The problem is, judges seem to score all PCS in accordance to Skating Skills.

But then, what do I know?

 

[Nigel]

As far as artistry and presentation, I would put Caroline Zhang ABOVE Kimmie Meissner. Kimmie might have better speed, stronger edges and more intricate choreography, but IMO has a lot of homework to do when it comes to interpreting her programs and skating to the music. The problem is, judges seem to score all PCS in accordance to Skating Skills.

But then, what do I know?

I wouldn't necessarily place Zhang above Meissner in regards to artistry/presentation. These are two very different skaters.

Meissner has so much more speed and ice coverage, with transitions galore in her jump passes and more difficult jump combos.

Zhang has very lyrical skating, choosing to stick with slower music which allows her to accentuate her lyrical style of skating, w/ slower arm movements, stroking etc (too many crossovers at this point, but I expect to see the transitions improve over time), and flexibility galore. We have watched Zhang skate for years in Southern CA and have watched her stick with a tried and true format for the most part, and IMO, has yet to really push herself artistically. Kind of like Laura on Project Runway. Beautiful, but not a stretch for her. Her "artistry" is almost formula, for lack of a better word. It works, but still, just too much the same from one year to the next.

Whereas Kimmie's music choices have evolved over the last 4-5 years, with more mature presentation accompanying her developing technical skills.

To look at YouTube footage of either skater is like taking a sound bite out of context. You need to have both skaters compete in the same event and then you can compare the two, which won't happen at least until next season. It is nice for everyone to hype Zhang at this point (and she has had two nice performances at her JGP events this year....but no real competition for her at these events, so she has stood out even more so).....so let's just let her skate and get ready for the JGPF as well Natls. Meissner's programs looked very new at the Campbells events and I am sure her coaches and choreographers will be putting her to the test with her GP events coming up.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

MM - Who decides if the lutz turned into a flutz or for a better term, take off on the wrong edge? From what Ant said, I believe the Caller just says lutz and then the judges have to grade the jump. There will be different scores for that attempt. Trust me. All these things look great on paper but when reality comes into the picture, well.....

Why not let the Caller call out Wrong Take OFF and the deduction can be automatic.

Joe

 

[Skye]

I wouldn't necessarily place Zhang above Meissner in regards to artistry/presentation. These are two very different skaters.

Meissner has so much more speed and ice coverage, with transitions galore in her jump passes and more difficult jump combos.

Zhang has very lyrical skating, choosing to stick with slower music which allows her to accentuate her lyrical style of skating, w/ slower arm movements, stroking etc (too many crossovers at this point, but I expect to see the transitions improve over time), and flexibility galore. We have watched Zhang skate for years in Southern CA and have watched her stick with a tried and true format for the most part, and IMO, has yet to really push herself artistically. Kind of like Laura on Project Runway. Beautiful, but not a stretch for her. Her "artistry" is almost formula, for lack of a better word. It works, but still, just too much the same from one year to the next.

Whereas Kimmie's music choices have evolved over the last 4-5 years, with more mature presentation accompanying her developing technical skills.

What I said :

Kimmie might have better speed, stronger edges and more intricate choreography, but IMO has a lot of homework to do when it comes to interpreting her programs and skating to the music.

Yes, Kimmie may deserve those scores in Skating Skills, Transition and Choreography but I still can't understand how her Performance and Interpretation can be considered to be one of the very best in the world. Is it OK to be just "in progress" when you have more difficult jump combinations and higher level spins?

 

[Mathman]

I thought only juniors had requirements for the type of solo jump out of footwork in their short program. In senior, it doesn't matter as long as it's a triple - no?

Oh, yes. That is correct. I misread the new rules document (184 pages, LOL) and I thought incorrectly that the ISU was planning to make a change for the 2008 season.

But it's for juniors, like you said.