Backloading Bonus Limited By ISU

[chopinskate]

To the rest, you did not give any counterargument to the fact that doing 3-4, 2-5 etc. is harder than 4-3 , but will be rewarded the same. This attitude attitude is "push limits harder for less reward"

This is the problem of the judging and the way skaters and their coaches were taking advantage of the rule, that led to this. Many have spoken out against that. You can't ignore the pertinent points that have been made against whoever you favour in the past, just to say people are now against "pushing limits harder for less reward " because someone's fine with this. It is sad that the backloading bonus is nixed. Too bad the system was exploited in a manner that this needed to be done, because the ISU's never going to be fixing the judging, anyway.

 

[flanker]

This is the problem of the judging and the way skaters and their coaches were taking advantage of the rule, that led to this. Many have spoken out against that. You can't ignore the pertinent points that have been made against whoever you favour in the past, just to say people are now against "pushing limits harder for less reward " because someone's fine with this. It is sad that the backloading bonus is nixed. Too bad the system was exploited in a manner that this needed to be done, because the ISU's never going to be fixing the judging, anyway.

I did not see, hear or read any pertinent point against rewarding backloading Those who are fine with "Zagitova rule" are those who see it as a chance, because it removes the gap between weaker and stronger athletes. And yes, I don't like that when someone can't make proper decisions, he rather makes global rule affecting strong athletes. It's what polititians do. "we are not able to catch e. g. tax delinquents, so we pass the law affecting all taxpayers.

 

[eaglehelang]

Add this to the mix : They passed the rule that Quads can only be repeated 1 time. 1 quad 1 triple repeat or 2 triples.

Interesting for the men's dept

 

[chopinskate]

I did not see, hear or read any pertinent point against rewarding backloading

Then there's no real point in continuing the discussion, is there? Your point of view won't change, nor will there be a middle ground.

 

[Shayuki]

On the plus side, with the +5GOE apparently affecting the entire combo, these three combos:

3Lz-3Lo
3Lz-3Lo
3F-3T-2Lo

With +5 GOE would have 49.35 in value, which with backloading could become 54.29 or a gain of almost 5 points with just backloading.
edit: Oh, apparently only the biggest jump's GOE is affected for combos. What a shame. So it's only around 3 points in potential backloading bonus.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Add this to the mix : They passed the rule that Quads can only be repeated 1 time. 1 quad 1 triple repeat or 2 triples.

Interesting for the men's dept

Im fine with that. Much better than initial proposal but still rewarding varieties :agree:

 

[tars]

It should be 1+2 and 2+5.

They're doing to figure skating, what they've done to artistic gymnastics and for the same reason, which is to hold down Russia. :disapp::disagree:

 

[Neenah16]

99% of the skaters had 3-4 layout in the FP (and no one had 3-0 in the SP). The only ones who had 4-3 are skaters who failed to qualify in the FP in the first place. So what ISU is trying to say rejecting Canada's proposal but saluting Japan's? That 99% programs are awful and uneven and skaters should do more jumps in the first half, so second half would have nothing but spin-spin-spin?

4 ladies who had a layout of 4-3 qualified to the free at the Olympics and they ranked (12,13,14, and 17 for the free).

8 ladies who qualified to the free at Worlds had 4-3 layout and 3 of them ranked in the top 10 (for the free).
1 lady had a 5-2 layout and another had 1-6

Basically, you are exaggerating your numbers, which is something I don't like in a discussion as it skews perception. Also, where is exactly the huge difference between 3-4 layout and a 4-3 layout. You are actually comparing a fully backloaded program with a fully frontloaded program, which is a very rare case and is not applicable to this conversation.

It says "no matter you are able to do harder layout, you still be marked as you are weaker." It is just erasing the difference between skaters, that's why I don't like it. People still forget that 3-4 is harder than 4-3. What is harder is also more risky, so skater had to compare risk vs. bonus. That made it interresting, because every skater saw his chances and abilities elsewhere and from that came the diversity in programs. Now nobody will be encouraged to do harder layout, and who will, he will only risk without any contribution.

That is not necessarily true. It depends on the jumps (and combos) attempted and the placement of the the jumping passes. A 4-3 layout with a 3A or a quad is harder, so is a layout with all combos in the second half compared to one with the combos in the first. The difficulty of the combos should also be considered unless you think for example that a 3Lz3L in the second half is equal in difficulty to a 3Lz3T in the second half.

What I am seeing in this thread is an oversimplification of the process.The skaters will not only consider the bonus when they construct their programs. They will be thinking about the new GOE system as well, which is a huge game changer. They will be making sure that they actually land their jumps and that the risk is minimized. The bonus means nothing if they fall or make a big mistake anyway.

 

[gkelly]

This is a misinterpretation. The skaters and their teams shouldn't be constructing programs in ways that are just point grabs. The ISU doing this doesn't automatically mean that the skaters should now do a 4-3 layout, nor does it mean that they think 3-4 layouts are bad. The proposal just says that the skaters won't be getting points for all the jumps being placed in the second half. If literally the only reason a skater was placing all their jumps in the second half was for grabbing points, then maybe there wasn't too much artistic worth to it.

For better or for worse, if a skater places their 4[SUP]th[/SUP] (or 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] or 2[SUP]nd[/SUP]) jump right in the middle of the program, now they won’t have to worry about intentionally delaying it in the choreography, either by ignoring the music or by recutting the music to move the actual jump a few seconds later. Nor about losing the bonus if they’re running ahead of the music. No need to vamp for a few seconds just to grab points on that most mid-program jump.

But yes, it does give fewer options for intentionally taking advantage of the bonus in creative ways.

If the judging were accurate, the real point grabs would have been well-constructed and -choreographed programs.

Is it possible to be “accurate” in determining whether a program is well constructed or well choreographed? How can you define those criteria in ways that are correct or incorrect? It’s not black and white like “Did the toepick go into the ice at 1:59 or 2:00?”

 

[Fruitpie]

Also, where is exactly the huge difference between 3-4 layout and a 4-3 layout.

Then what the reason why it should be 4-3 and not 3-4? If Canada's proposal didn't exist in the first place, then we can say "well, they didn't have a choice anyway: 4-3 or nothing". You're acting like there is no difference between the two, but it's there. And there should be a reason why one is "yes" and other is "no".

You are actually comparing a fully backloaded program with a fully frontloaded program, which is a very rare case and is not applicable to this conversation.

Where? I don't have a reason to do so. My views on programs are very unpopular, and I know it. For me DQ is one the best programs of the decade. And I can't stand some programs that are prised for being "balanced".

 

[kostornaya22]

What a shame! I suppose discouraging backloading would make it appear they're doing this for the sake of artistry. When lascivious hip shaking, shimmying and empty programs can no longer win tournaments I suppose this is the result.

 

[flanker]

That is not necessarily true.

OK, I admit I did not consider every possible composition of the program, you have a point. So my point should be expressed that way: same jump (or combo) placed in the second half is harder than in the first and the more jumps placed into the second half the harder program. Not only because of time that passed but you also have less time between jumps. I remember words from our czech commentator during OG team event to Alina's FS. When she ended, commentator said: "So now even Zagitova's russian teammates probably wonder what just now happened on the ice."

 

[Mathman]

Add this to the mix : They passed the rule that Quads can only be repeated 1 time. 1 quad 1 triple repeat or 2 triples.

Interesting for the men's dept

Taken together, i think what the ISU is trying tp say is this: you should not be able to win a figure skating contest by doing one thing excessively while neglecting other aspects of the discipline.

The quad issue was tricky. Obviously, you have to give the most points to a quad because quads are really hard. But then again, if you do 5 quads and absolutely nothing else, you will end up with over 100 points in base value just off that one skill even if you don't do any spins at all, don't present a footwork sequence, skate slow as molasses, and make no attempt at transitions never mind choreography and interpretation.

I can see where the ISU has its work cut out for it in trying to maintain a scoring system that does not excessively reward Johnnie-one-note programs.

 

[Shayuki]

Taken together, i think what the ISU is trying tp say is this: you should not be able to win a figure skating contest by doing one thing excessively while neglecting other aspects of the discipline.

I don't agree with this at all! They should just be judged accurately. If you can only jump quads - Go ahead and jump quads! Just receive extremely low PCS if you do nothing else, don't get scored 90+ PCS. Solved!

Why don't we allow the skaters play to their strengths and rather force everyone into the same mold?

 

[chopinskate]

I don't agree with this at all! They should just be judged accurately. If you can only jump quads - Go ahead and jump quads! Just receive extremely low PCS if you do nothing else, don't get scored 90+ PCS. Solved!

Why don't we allow the skaters play to their strengths and rather force everyone into the same mold?

I agree. This is a solution to the way the judges have allowed the skaters to be able to play the system, not a solution to the actual problem -- the judges.

 

[champs]

I personally don't care if backloaded jumps aren't rewarded. I'd rather skaters save energy that'd be wasted due to backloading, for quality execution of hard-to-land jumps such as quads and 3A. I'd rather watch Trusova and Kihira frontload with quads and 3As than Zagitova backload entirely with no quads or 3As.

I guess I'm in the super tiny minority.

 

[jenaj]

This is a step in the right direction. The right move would be to eliminate the bonus altogether. Other sports don't reward points for being tired.

 

[moriel]

This is a step in the right direction. The right move would be to eliminate the bonus altogether. Other sports don't reward points for being tired.

Other sports do not reward concepts such as balance and artistry either,
Lets stick to your logic and also eliminate stuff like "Performance" and "Interpretation" and so on.

 

[Ziotic]

Checking the 2018 WC, there were a few men who did combos as their last jump :
Nathan Chen : 3F+1L+3S
Shoma Uno : 3S+3T
Vincent Zhou : 3Lz+1L+3F, marked as under rotated

So for the men, its very possible to have combos as last jump with less 30 sec and 1 less jump to do.

Those are fine, but I’m more so referring to their bigger combos worth the most points. Typically 4/3 combos for most elite men.

 

[moriel]

At what jumping pass was the combo done? Just to add some numbers to the discussion.

Worlds Men (top 24)
SP:
1: 10 (8 of those with quads)
2: 7
3: 7
In the SP, the quad combo always comes in 1st.
The 2 guys who tried to do the quad combo not as their first jumping pass (Nam and Moris) did not advance to FS.

FS:
1: 8 (4 of those with quads)
2: 10 (4 of those with quads)
3: 7
4: 7 (2 of those with quads)
5: 12 (3 of those with quads)
6: 9 (2 of those with quads)
7: 9
8: 4
Most skaters put their quad combos as 1st or 2nd jumping pass.
Some also try to put them as 1st jump in the second half.
Nobody does the quad combos in the last 2 jumping passes.