Two Olympic Judges suspended by ISU

[chopinskate]

It definitely is not about the result in Pyeonchang. Hanyu won. No one got a medal who shouldn't have and no one who should have gotten a medal was deprived of one.

... So... It's about the bigger picture...?

 

[Ares]

But what about Alla Shekhovtseva? :disapp:

 

[chopinskate]

But what about Alla Shekhovtseva? :disapp:

Already not been placed on the Ice Dance Technical Committee.

 

[gkelly]

As I said before, in big competitions (worlds, Olympics, maybe Europeans and 4C) there should be no judge from the countries of the skaters that skate in the competitions. I don't know how difficult is this, but I am sure it is possible.

Not possible at Worlds or Junior Worlds, because every federation is allowed to send at least one entry in each discipline, assuming they have met the minimum technical scores.

At Olympics it would be possible to include only judges from federations that did not qualify a skater in that discipline. However you would end up with much more inexperienced judges at the big event. I don't think that's what's wanted.

In theory it would be possible, just a bit more expensive, to have only European judges at Four Continents and only non-European judges as Europeans.



Another option, possible with IJS but wouldn't work with ordinals, at the big events that use 9 judges, would be to drop the scores of the home country judge for every skater with a judge on the panel and just take the trimmed means using the scores from the remaining 8 judges on the panel.

It would still be possible for judges to lowball perceived rivals of their skaters, but they wouldn't be able to overmark their own skaters if their scores for their skaters don't count.

 

[Ares]

Already not been placed on the Ice Dance Technical Committee.

I have learnt about it already some time ago, but the fact that she's still involved makes me roll my eyes, but oh well ... it makes little sense to reopen old wounds as I am not someone who can influence anything there. It was meant as a sarcastic response.

 

[Ares]

https://twitter.com/LynnRutherford/status/1009161346146070528



Well, actually, should be , but you know, got to take the positives where we can now!

Totally didn't try to push the US skaters onto the podium. Totally. Well done, Lynn. Tomorrow, we can learn more about addition. 1+1 =/= 2 to you, apparently.

Mrs Lorrie Parker :noshake:

What kind of judging was that? Zhou above both Fernandez & Hanyu in FS as the only one obviously?!

It reminds me Sharon Rogers, but this one is even worse in terms of USA-bias.

 

[BillNeal]

Mrs Lorrie Parker :noshake:

What kind of judging was that? Zhou above both Fernandez & Hanyu in FS as the only one obviously?!

It reminds me Sharon Rogers, but this one is even worse in terms of USA-bias.

Not too sure Sharon Rogers is that much better. Other than V/M vs. P/C at OG, she also placed C/B ahead of many teams, including both W/P and G/P, despite C/B having a double fall on the entry to their combo spin.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Sorry if it's a little difficult to see the unfairness when he won the Olympic gold medal.

A+ example of not getting the point. It's also always funny to see the 2 only two arguments being used are "you have no reason to complain, your fave won" and "you're only complaining because you're fave didn't win". It's when people have to try to use blanket statements like that and rather discuss people then skating/judging you know someone.... just has no actual arguments, I guess

Edit beaucse I left out a kind of crucial 'didn't' xD

 

[chopinskate]

A+ example of not getting the point.

Very tight-fisted with the grade. I think it deserves some extra credit.

 

[narcissa]

A+ example of not getting the point. It's also always funny to see the 2 only two arguments being used are "you have no reason to complain, your fave won" and "you're only complaining because you're fave won". It's when people have to try to use blanket statements like that and rather discuss people then skating/judging you know someone.... just has no actual arguments, I guess

Basically complaining when your fave lost is being a "sore loser" and complaining when your fave won is being a "sore winner." So when can anyone complain? When you have no faves? When your faves aren't skating? When you no longer watch or care about skating?

 

[chopinskate]

When your faves aren't skating?

"But why do you even care????? Why are you tearing these other skaters down when your favourite is gone???"

When you no longer watch or care about skating?

We'll know the reply to this soon enough. The sport is headed that way, after all.

 

[karne]

Alexander Lakernik was the technical Controller at Sochi who...
Decided to flat out ignore Adelina's flutz and clearly under-rotated toe loop.
Gave Adelina's step sequence level 4 when it did not even meet level 3.

See, where these arguments fall down is that they only serve to prove that you, like most Sochi conspiracy theorists, actually know nothing about how a technical panel works. Lakernik could not decide any of these things on his own. Nor did he actually "give" her anything. That's not what the controller does. The Specialist calls levels and edges and URs. The other members of the tech panel can ask for review, and a 2-1 majority (at least) is needed to decide anything.

So again: what did Lakernik do that warrants investigation?

 

[Shanshani]

I mean, if nationalistic judging not affecting medal placements is a good argument for ignoring nationalistic judging, then clearly neither Weiguang Chen nor Feng Huang should have been suspended, since Boyang Jin didn't medal and Sui/Han didn't win. :confused2:

But, the ISU didn't ignore Chen and Huang, so it's perfectly valid to tell the ISU to look at other blatantly obvious cases of nationalistic judging as well. Lorrie Parker is simply the most extreme case they didn't investigate. And to be honest, it's clear that the people defending Lorrie Parker don't really have an argument when they have to resort to accusing others of only caring because it affects their favorites, instead of addressing the arguments that multiple people have made using actual numbers. The numbers don't lie--you don't score your own country's skaters 9.24 points higher than other judges and other countries' skaters 0.38 points lower by accident.

 

[narcissa]

"But why do you even care????? Why are you tearing these other skaters down when your favourite is gone???"

Oh yeah...
"I wish these [retired skater]'s fans would just let it go, [skater] is retired already!" lol

 

[Amef]

It could have gone the other way if this sort of national biased continues. Ms Lorrie Parker gave Nathan a WR score of 225 that was 2.21 points higher than Yuzuru's 17 Worlds FS, despite Nathan not skating a clean FS. If she continues on like that in the future US skaters will win due to national bias.

 

[Matt K]

That's not how IJS scoring works. No judge "places" any skater anywhere.

Gee, you don't say! What next, Princess Diana is dead?

Obviously, judges do not "place" skaters in the traditional ordinal sense like they did in the now defunct 6.0 system. But judges do give out PCS and GOEs, which, as far as I recall, still count towards the skater's total score, which.....yes, determine the placements of these skaters! PCS and GOEs fall under the judge's discretion.

You assume the rankings are all under the control of the technical panel, when in fact, it has been shown numerous times that PCS and GOEs can, and do, play a significant (and damaging) role in the ranking of skaters. Maybe it is possible that because judges don't have control over the technical panel's awarding of marks, that these judges will try to manipulate the outcome as best he/she can through the use of PCS and GOEs, which is what we are all discussing in this thread, and the primary topic of discussion here regarding the two Chinese judges.

Parker gave Zhou significantly lower GOEs and especially PCS than she gave Hanyu. However, Zhou's 18.03-point higher base value in the elements, which she had no control over, was enough to keep the total of her scores plus the tech panel/Scale of Value determinations for Zhou add up to more than for Hanyu.

Quite likely many judges would be surprised to learn how their scores plus the tech panel scores end up "placing" the skaters. They don't have time to do the math for each skater and keep track for the whole field. That's not their job.

I would direct all attention to US Ice Dance judge Sharon Rogers marks, most notably at 2017 4CC then. If your defence of Lorrie Parker stands then you can see a clear and egregious example of manipulative GOE/PCS marking. If judges play no role in the outcome of skater rankings then maybe we should just ask the technical panel to award levels and give out medals that way.

 

[xeyra]

There are other judges in a panel. Ms Lorrie Parker alone can't make US skaters win through her national bias. Though neither could the Chinese, so the selective punishing of Hueng in pairs is all the more annoying when you compare their nationalistic bias to that of other judges and see bigger manifestations of it that didn't get punished.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't someone give a list of judges that got a warning at the Olympics, which included Delfa in the men's SP, but Lorrie Parker wasn't on that list? So she didn't even get a warning?

 

[Eclair]

national bias is present throughout and always in every competition but especially at the Olympics. The Chinese men's judge just gave his countryman really high score, aka the dumbest way of corrupted judging.

The Chinese pair's judge, Laurie Parker gave their country as high GOE and PCS as possible while staying inside the corridor. That's the less obvious way of biased judging.

Spanish judge Delfa, German pair's judge etc.etc gave their countrymen medium high GOE and PCS but under marked their countrymen's strongest opponents as much as possible while still staying inside the corridor.

Then there is the fourth even less obvious but still very biased way of judging e.g. the Russian judges tend to do. Give the podium medal contenders of their own country as high GOE and PCS as possible while under marking their opponents while staying inside the corridor. Judge their third ranked skater fairly in GOE and PCS.

all 3 ways of judging is biased and should be penalized.

 

[Miller]

This type of analysis is meaningless. Some countries' skaters that are far above the others and competing for top awards will naturally have judges (not just their home country, but others) placing them in the upper echelon of podium placements. A Canadian judge giving Virtue/Moir 1st place in all events is hardly controversial at all, while a USA judge giving the Shibutanis 2nd place is totally suspect and eyebrow-raising. See USA American Ice Dance judge SHARON ROGERS, for instance, at 2017 Worlds. Aside from her horribly biased placements earlier at the 2017 Four Continents event where she ranked C/B, Shibutanis higher than V/M and tied H/D with V/M (or another american team), she continued this trend at Worlds later that year. In the FD, she placed P/C first (no controversy there), Shibutanis second (by a huge mile), and then essentially tied V/M and H/D even when H/D dropped to 10th place in the FD(!) where H/D had the 7th best PCS of the field in the FD.

If that isn't suspect and abhorrent judging, I don't even know what is. Just putting P/C and Shibutanis miles ahead of "third place" V/M speaks volumes about this judge. I can not even imagine what was going on in her mind to tie H/D with V/M.

Now, what this analysis does tell us, is that the USA judges are probably the most blatant and suspect in awarding ("showering") their own home skaters with top marks. While D/R, Osmond, and V/M are medal contenders and favorites, the USA has none aside from maybe H/D and Shibutanis. So the fact that USA judges give their own American skaters 2nd place is laughable and a very serious matter that requires much attention. Nathan Chen bombed at Pyeongchang and his marks from the USA judge should reflect that.

For this type of analysis to have any real meaning, it should compare home judges's marks for each of their skaters relative to their colleague judges marks for those skaters. I believe there are internet sites devoted to doing just that.

Well actually that's what my analysis does. It compares how a country's judge judged their skater relative to others.

So for example Chinese judges judged their skaters on 14 occasions at the Olympics. On 12 of these, e.g. all 3 pairs in the Pairs SP, they placed their skater in 1st place out of the 9 judges, once in 2nd and once in 4th. This is what shows national bias. If it was totally random then their average position should be 5th out of the 9 judges with an even distribution about this point, but it's not.

Further examples, USA, 20 skaters judged, 9 1st places out of 9, 5 2nd, 4 3rd, 2 5th, Canada 22 skaters judged, 8 1st places, 12 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 6th, but in each case it's relative to the other judges and nothing to do with overall positions/podium places etc.

The only thing it does not is look at the individual scores and see how far they might vary from the rest e.g. they may only be 0.01 higher, they may be 10 points or more. However with 221 cases of judges judging their own skaters at the Olympics and World Championships I would suggest there is more than enough evidence to prove national bias e.g. 83 1st places out of the 9 judges etc.

 

[narcissa]

Well actually that's what my analysis does. It compares how a country's judge judged their skater relative to others.

So for example Chinese judges judged their skaters on 14 occasions at the Olympics. On 12 of these, e.g. all 3 pairs in the Pairs SP, they placed their skater in 1st place out of the 9 judges, once in 2nd and once in 4th. This is what shows national bias. If it was totally random then their average position should be 5th out of the 9 judges with an even distribution about this point, but it's not.

Further examples, USA, 20 skaters judged, 9 1st places out of 9, 5 2nd, 4 3rd, 2 5th, Canada 22 skaters judged, 8 1st places, 12 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 6th, but in each case it's relative to the other judges and nothing to do with overall positions/podium places etc.

The only thing it does not is look at the individual scores and see how far they might vary from the rest e.g. they may only be 0.01 higher, they may be 10 points or more. However with 221 cases of judges judging their own skaters at the Olympics and World Championships I would suggest there is more than enough evidence to prove national bias e.g. 83 1st places out of the 9 judges etc.

Actually he's right, some federations will just have better skaters. It's a confounding variable. You can't just assume that the mean aptitude of skaters from each fed is the same.

If you looked at literally all feds and not just the top three, and took the average placement across all of them at each competition, then you might have an argument, but you can't just look at the top feds.