ISU proposal - Rule 108 - age limitations

[gkelly]

The short program (technical program) , by intention, was created as part of the move away from compulsory figures. In figures, every skater traced exactly the same patterns and then the judges decided who did it best. Free skating meant free – do whatever you can. The Zayak rules, and the later “balanced program” rules under the IJS, came in to prevent competitors from just concentrating on one skill repeated over and over. The triple Axel did pose a dilemma – at one time the riles permitted and encouraged a skater to do a double Axel for the required “Axel type jump” and then a triple Axel/double toe for the required combination, thus loading up on Axels contrary to the spirit of what the short program was all about.

I don't think the problem was so much skaters doing solo 2A as required and 3A in the jump combination.

In the 1970s and 80s, the solo jump was always a specified double jump preceded by steps or other skating movements, and one of the jumps in the combination was a specified double jump.

As of the 1989 season, the requirements were loosened up so that skaters could choose which takeoff to use for the jump out of steps, and which takeoffs to use for both of the jumps in the combination. For men, all these jumps could now be triple; for women, only one of the jumps in the combination.

The problem came a year or two later, when several men chose to do the same triple jump both as the first jump in the combination and also as the jump out of steps. A few (I believe Browning, Eldredge, Petrenko, and Stojko) chose to do 3A combination and also 3A as the solo jump, as well as the then-required double axel. (And Wylie was doing 3Lz+2T and solo 3Lz. There may have been others as well.)

That was what was considered overloading on axels and led to the rule change that forbade using the same jump in more than one SP jump element, which is still in effect.

As years went by the distinction between the two programs became increasingly blurred – raising the question of why there is a short program at all. The best justification seems to be so that skaters (and audiences?) won’t get too bored during the season just preparing and refining one program over and over.

True.

There are still stricter requirements in the SP than in the FS, but the distinction is much less clear than earlier in the history of the SP. Or, for that matter, the history of the well-balanced free skate.

 

[LolaSkatesInJapan]

What? No way man. Muravieva or Kostornaia 3As are beauty. While Trusova's quads excited even the most austere and bias international viewers. Bazyluk's talent makes lebron seem as a random street baller - literally a wonder of history to see her skate. Genetic advantage is the name of every sport and physical endeavour in general. And artistry doesnt absolve this matter because look at ballerinas. Trying to penalize genetic gift would kill anything of the like on the spot with zero redemption.

Wholeheartedly agree. And the ultra C elements should be more encouraged/practiced harder

 

[DancingCactus]

Wouldn't it be interesting if they went back to making the SP more restrictive but changing the requirements every season, a bit like in ID? Eg, one season the single jump has to be a loop, there has to be a layback spin, do what you want with the rest of the program? The next year it will be the flip and a camel spin etc? Then they could actually compare required elements and use GOE properly for a change?

Totally off topic, sorry.

 

[Mathman]

Wouldn't it be interesting if they went back to making the SP more restrictive but changing the requirements every season, a bit like in ID? Eg, one season the single jump has to be a loop, there has to be a layback spin, do what you want with the rest of the program? The next year it will be the flip and a camel spin etc? Then they could actually compare required elements and use GOE properly for a change?

That would be interesting, but there might be a situation where by bad luck a top skater's nemisis jump might be the very one chosen in a crucial year. Nancy Kerrigan had problems with combos featuring a loop jump at the end. When the requirements specified a double or triple loop combo, she had to improvise with 2Lo+3T. (Thanks to gkelly for telling me that the last time this question came up. )

Kristi Yamaguchi hated -- of all things -- the Salchow, and in fact she flubbed it (in the LP) at the1992 Olympics.

 

[Mathematician]

Wouldn't it be interesting if they went back to making the SP more restrictive but changing the requirements every season, a bit like in ID? Eg, one season the single jump has to be a loop, there has to be a layback spin, do what you want with the rest of the program? The next year it will be the flip and a camel spin etc? Then they could actually compare required elements and use GOE properly for a change?

Totally off topic, sorry.

That would introduce too much luck into a sport which already isnt particularly concrete and objective. We need to retain as much structure and consistency as possible. Though it sounds like a cool idea at first thought.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

So they're both unique, as in not what we typically see. Perhaps I should have used the term "rare." That wasn't really my point, though. With Deanna returning successfully, she's become a symbol of longevity...different from all the teenagers that retire early from overuse injuries. My point was that we shouldn't forget that she  was one of those teens. She didn't do something spectacular to make it through that stage.

What's spectacular about her is her return, her ability to restore her skills, learn a new discipline, and compete at an elite level. She proves it can be done at an older age, but she's not really an example of how to keep teens from having career-ending injuries.

That's fine. I just wanted to make sure Zoe's comeback wasn't forgotten about.

And you know what, I learnt something writing that post. I didn't realise that Deanna was so young when she got injured and had to retire. Of course, all the information was there, so I could have worked it out. But I just didn't think to work out that bit. All I thought of working out was how long she was out of action.

I was already in awe of what Deanna had achieved, but I am even more in awe now. Let's face it, she was still just a kid when she retired. But when she came back, she was a totally different person. I would go further than you, and say that rather than restoring her skills, she had to learn them again from scratch.

Never mind Diana Prince, Deanna Stellato is Wonder Woman.



CaroLiza_fan

 

[yyzskater]

If the proposal passes, would it apply to this year or next?

And do you think teams like Pedersen/Chen would reconsider getting back together if they got an extra year in Jr? While I don't know if age was the only issue, I'm sure it was a significant factor. I don't think either of them have found partners yet.

 

[4everchan]

If the proposal passes, would it apply to this year or next?

And do you think teams like Pedersen/Chen would reconsider getting back together if they got an extra year in Jr? While I don't know if age was the only issue, I'm sure it was a significant factor. I don't think either of them have found partners yet.

i doubt it. they were aware that the rules may change... if they had wanted to continue together, they would have waited.

 

[saine]

Proposal 108 is on page 27 of the Congress Agenda

But it looks as though the ISU recommends voting "no" on the American proposal on pairs ages and want to preserve a seven year age gap if the ages are raised? Did I get that right?

Plus raising the maximum age for women in pairs to 21. Ice dance is being proposed for both to have 21 as the maximum age, not just the men.

Canada did propose making the maximum age for pairs for both to be 23 in the name of equity (page 30). But the ISU isn't in favour of that either.

 

[4everchan]

23 ? WOW... intense... that would open the door to women to complete their careers as seniors and switch back to junior pairs.

I don't like it.

 

[icewhite]

will we open a new thread for the proposal, now that it is "official" and there are many topics?

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Four proposals are on the agenda of the ISU congress

Council:

• Juniors
  • Singles: Between 13 and 19
  • Pairs: Between 13 and 21 (women) / 23 (men), maximum gap between partners 7 years
  • Ice Dance: Between 13 and 21 (both partners), maximum gap between partners 7 years
• Novices
  • Basic Novices: Below 14
  • Intermediate Novices: Below 16
  • Advanced Novices: Between 10 and 16 (Singles, girls in Dance and Pairs) / 18 (boys in partnered disciplines)

US Figure Skating:

• Seniors: 17 for everyone but women in pairs, 16 for them

Canada Figure Skating (two separate proposals)

• Juniors:
  • Ice Dance: Between 13 and 21 (both partners)
  • Pairs: Between 13 and 23 (both partners)

 

[4everchan]

Four proposals are on the agenda of the ISU congress

Council:

• Juniors
  • Singles: Between 13 and 19
  • Pairs: Between 13 and 21 (women) / 23 (men), maximum gap between partners 7 years
  • Ice Dance: Between 13 and 21 (both partners), maximum gap between partners 7 years
• Novices
  • Basic Novices: Below 14
  • Intermediate Novices: Below 16
  • Advanced Novices: Between 10 and 16 (Singles, girls in Dance and Pairs) / 18 (boys in partnered disciplines)

US Figure Skating:

• Seniors: 17 for everyone but women in pairs, 16 for them

Canada Figure Skating (two separate proposals)

• Juniors:
  • Ice Dance: Between 13 and 21 (both partners)
  • Pairs: Between 13 and 23 (both partners)

Thanks for the summary. All of these have pros and cons... but let me just say i dislike the 23 years old in both the ISU and CANADA pairs proposals and the 16 for senior women by the US figure skating...

I am happy the council is mentioning age gap... Is 7 years too much ? In my opinion, yes.. but that the concept is mentioned is a step forward... Can you imagine a 13 year old girl with a 23 year old man in pairs ? I don't want to see it.


BTW : in my field chamber music with teenagers... we often have kids who are very advanced at 13 or 14... and they could musically be partnered with adults.. yet, we do not... why ? maturity. We like our groups to be cohesive. Of course, it's different...there are no twists and throws in chamber music... and no concussions... which means we could pair anyone with anyone, yet, we keep them tight in terms of age and maturity levels.

 

[ladyjane]

I dislike the 23 years coming up in any proposal, a younger senior age for girls in pairs, and if an age gap of maximum 7 years for jrs is a step forward, I would welcome a second step for a maximum of 5 or 4 yrs. No such thing for seniors, but with these young ones, I think that would take into account both the generally earlier maturing of girls so a bit older is not an issue, and the prevention of too much of a power gap because of age, with a mature man and a young girl.

 

[SubRosa]

Whatever decision is made about maximum ages and maximum age gaps for junior pairs/dance, I hope it will do away with situations where the man ages out of juniors before the woman ages into seniors.

 

[jan.zilka]

Whatever decision is made about maximum ages and maximum age gaps for junior pairs/dance, I hope it will do away with situations where the man ages out of juniors before the woman ages into seniors.

It seems like the proposals 45 and 49 are aiming on exactly this. And it would also be aligned with the overall strategy not to hurry up from junior into the senior category due to several reasonable reasons. And based on council's comments it has a good chance to get approved by congress, either 45 or 49 or both.

https://isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-communications/33753-isu-communication-2629/file#page=30

 

[Skating91]

US Figure Skating:

• Seniors: 17 for everyone but women in pairs, 16 for them

Canada Figure Skating (two separate proposals)

• Juniors:
  • Ice Dance: Between 13 and 21 (both partners)
  • Pairs: Between 13 and 23 (both partners)

Completely unacceptable to lower the age limit to 16 given the ISU presented medical, scientific data showing why is was necessary to raise the age to 17. If the ISU passes this is will show that raising the age limit was clearly not about protecting the health and lives of skaters otherwise why would they lower it after two year?

Pairs is the most brutal of the disciplines as well with the most trauma. If anything the age limit should be 18 or even higher for pairs.

Also, I'm not sure what Canada are thinking no 23 year old should be in a junior competition. How about coaches pick age appropriate partners? I would put in a rule the age gap can't be more than 3 years for juniors. Simple as that. Even that is not really appropriate, but it would be a start.

 

[jan.zilka]

Hello guys, I am interested in your opinion.
What would be the exact meaning of the wording "A maximum age gap of 7 years is allowed between the two partners" ?

A- Would 6 years and 364 days (or 365, in leap year) be the largest allowed birthdays' difference?
or

B- Would exact 7 years and zero days be the longest age gap accepted? (when the birth dates of partners would be the same month and day)
or

C- Would 7 years and 364 days (or 365 in leap year) still comply with the proposal wording?


Examples (days of birth), season 2024-25:

Pair 1:
Man .............. 2003-01-01
Woman ....... 2009-12-31

Pair 2:
Man .............. 2003-01-01
Woman ....... 2010-01-01

Pair 3:
Man .............. 2003-01-01
Woman ....... 2010-12-31

Pass of fail to compete as junior pairs / ice dance team? Thanks.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Hello guys, I am interested in your openion.
What would be the exact meaning of the wording "A maximum age gap of 7 years is allowed between the two partners" ?

A- Would 6 years and 364 days (or 365, in leap year) be the largest allowed birthdays' difference?
or

B- Would exact 7 years and zero days be the biggest age gap accepted? (when the birth dates of partners would be the same month and day)
or

C- Would 7 years and 364 days (or 365 in leap year) still comply with the proposal wording?


Examples (days of birth), season 2024-25:

Pair 1:
Man .............. 2003-01-01
Woman ....... 2009-12-31

Pair 2:
Man .............. 2003-01-01
Woman ....... 2010-01-01

Pair 3:
Man .............. 2003-01-01
Woman ....... 2010-12-31

Pass of fail to compete as junior pairs / ice dance team? Thanks.

We honestly don't know. To me, limiting it by skating seasons would make more sense than limiting it by years, just because that's the way skating has historically handled questions of eligibility, but that doesn't mean the rule is intended to be read like this.

Protecting the younger partner is obviously the main objective, but if we are already making rules to deal with eligibility issues, we should also implement rules that limit the number of pairs forming that will have to sit out from internationally competing for a season (example 1 and 2) or even 2 (example 3), in which case the limit should be 6 skating seasons of difference between the birthdates of the partners (i.e. the maximum possible age difference would be 7 years -1 day, but only if the team just so happens to be born on the 30th of June (female partner) and the first of July (male partner)).

 

[jan.zilka]

ISU categories Calculator version 1.1 was just released.

It covers existing rule 108 paragraph 3, but also option to "turn on" proposal 45 and proposal 49 to see how it chances eligibilities in singles women, men and also pairs and ice dance.

The "age gap" rule is now computed as described above in case A, which is probably not exactly what the ISU council wanted to do.
I will modify that based on discussion here, that may come next week.

ISU Categories Calculator

Singles, Pair Skating and Ice Dance age limitations in online calculator. Based on date of birth and current ISU General ... Rule 108, section 3. Please, report any bugs or improvements proposals. https://krasobruslenibrno.cz/isu-categories-calculator/

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