ISU proposal - Rule 108 - age limitations

[jan.zilka]

Any insider here to bring possible Junior age limitation update proposal within rule 108?
As previously said in communication 2575, "The Working Group is preparing a proposal for the Agenda of the 2024 Congress to increase theupper age limit of Junior Skaters for Pair Skating".

Current Rule 108 Junior content is:

3. b)	In International Junior Competitions and ISU Junior Championships a Junior is a Skater who has met the following requirements before July 1 preceding the event:
3. b) i)	has reached at least the age of thirteen;
3. b) ii)	has not reached the age of nineteen for Women and Men in singles competition; and
3. b) iii)	has not reached the age of nineteen for Women and the age of twenty-one for Men in Pair Skating and Ice Dance competition.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Not an insider, but there are multiple proposals pertaining to the age rules for both Juniors and Seniors.

The only one that we basically know fully is the proposal to freeze the Sr age for pairs women at 16, instead of raising it to 17 together with the other disciplines.
In the past, Canada has proposed bringing the upper age limit for Juniors in pairs and ice dance for women into line with the upper age limit for men, so I could see that being proposed again.

Problem for all "outside" proposals about Jr and Novice age limits - Last time they were all rejected with the following reasoning: "The Council believes that an evaluation of the lower age categories (Junior, Novice or younger) is required in consultation with the ISU Medical Commission and in consultation with the Technical Committees for their review and adjustment of the Technical Rules for the Junior and younger categories to prevent injuries. The Council therefore is not in favor of this Proposal as it is premature."

 

[Andrea82]

In the past, Canada has proposed bringing the upper age limit for Juniors in pairs and ice dance for women into line with the upper age limit for men, so I could see that being proposed again.

that one is expected to be proposed again because during Italian Nationals last December, one of the commentators (Michela Cesaro who is an Ice Dance ISU judge) said that Tali/LaFornara would like to stay Juniors again next season but they need to see if ISU Congress approves the change in age limits of female partners.

 

[Skating91]

Not an insider, but there are multiple proposals pertaining to the age rules for both Juniors and Seniors.

The only one that we basically know fully is the proposal to freeze the Sr age for pairs women at 16, instead of raising it to 17 together with the other disciplines.
In the past, Canada has proposed bringing the upper age limit for Juniors in pairs and ice dance for women into line with the upper age limit for men, so I could see that being proposed again.

Problem for all "outside" proposals about Jr and Novice age limits - Last time they were all rejected with the following reasoning: "The Council believes that an evaluation of the lower age categories (Junior, Novice or younger) is required in consultation with the ISU Medical Commission and in consultation with the Technical Committees for their review and adjustment of the Technical Rules for the Junior and younger categories to prevent injuries. The Council therefore is not in favor of this Proposal as it is premature."

It would be madness if they lower the age limit in pairs. This seems to be instigated by one fed in particular because their junior pairs world champions have been mismatched. At 2023 junior worlds she was 14 teamed up with a 20 year old weeks away from being 21. This is completely inappropriate, and against the spirit of a junior competition where the much older male has significant strength advantages over age appropriate partners.

Of course, a 40 year old teaming up with a 32 year is not inappropriate age differences do not really matter at a certain point, but teaming up someone in their early teens with someone in their early 20s is inappropriate, a total power imbalance.

The ISU should be coming back to this fed and saying, how about you choose more age appropriate junior pairings in future instead of expecting us to overhaul the age rules that were put in place for the physical and psychological protection of these children.

In the meantime the child can find an age appropriate pairs partner, then when she is age eligible she can go back to the previous partner if that is her choice.

The age rule is there to protect such children from these scenarios where there is a total power imbalance, or they are expected to have the work rate of an adult athlete.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

It would be madness if they lower the age limit in pairs. This seems to be instigated by one fed in particular because their junior pairs world champions have been mismatched. At 2023 junior worlds she was 14 teamed up with a 20 year old weeks away from being 21. This is completely inappropriate, and against the spirit of a junior competition where the much older male has significant strength advantages over age appropriate partners.

Of course, a 40 year old teaming up with a 32 year is not inappropriate age differences do not really matter at a certain point, but teaming up someone in their early teens with someone in their early 20s is inappropriate, a total power imbalance.

The ISU should be coming back to this fed and saying, how about you choose more age appropriate junior pairings in future instead of expecting us to overhaul the age rules that were put in place for the physical and psychological protection of these children.

In the meantime the child can find an age appropriate pairs partner, then when she is age eligible she can go back to the previous partner if that is her choice.

The age rule is there to protect such children from these scenarios where there is a total power imbalance, or they are expected to have the work rate of an adult athlete.

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread, as you well know, and I don't think there's any necessity to rehash this discussion here.

(Not that it is likely that this proposal will pass, they'll probably just raise the upper age limit for Juniors to 23 for pairs men.)

 

[NanaPat]

(Not that it is likely that this proposal will pass, they'll probably just raise the upper age limit for Juniors to 23 for pairs men.)

I sure hope they don't. Another year of the Georgian pair at junior worlds would be insufferable.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I sure hope they don't. Another year of the Georgian pair at junior worlds would be insufferable.

They'd only be Jr eligible if the women's age would be raised too. Otherwise, Nastya Metelkina ages out after this season and they couldn't keep skating in Juniors.

Personally, I'm in favour of raising the women's age to 21, but also keeping the men's age at 21 and at most making exceptions for the group of pairs teams that would be Sr eligible under the old rules but are neither Sr nor Jr eligible now, because I also don't want to see a 21- and 23-year old competing in Juniors or a 23-year old pairing up with a 13-year old for one Jr season.

 

[jan.zilka]

they'll probably just raise the upper age limit for Juniors to 23 for pairs men.

How do you know that? Has any proposal being published prior to the Vegas session?

btw I made an online calculator based on current rule 108. Anyone can use it for free. May I share the link here or do I have to go to sharing thread? Dont wanna break any rules...

 

[Jumping_Bean]

How do you know that? Has any proposal being published prior to the Vegas session?

No full proposal has been leaked but in Communication No. 2575, it states "The Working Group is preparing a proposal for the Agenda of the 2024 Congress to increase the upper age limit of Junior Skaters for Pair Skating".

As the lower age limit for Seniors has been raised by two years, my assumption is that they'll raise the upper age limit for pairs by two years as well, but that's just a guess. They might also raise the upper age limit for the women, but of that, I'm not so sure - Pairs with smaller age differences don't have age-eligibility issues and can move to Seniors before hitting 23. On the other hand, not raising the limit for women too could encourage bigger age gaps (ideal age gap 4 instead of 2 years, for the longest dual eligibility)

 

[jan.zilka]

No full proposal has been leaked but in Communication No. 2575, it states "The Working Group is preparing a proposal for the Agenda of the 2024 Congress to increase the upper age limit of Junior Skaters for Pair Skating".

As the lower age limit for Seniors has been raised by two years, my assumption is that they'll raise the upper age limit for pairs by two years as well, but that's just a guess.

That would make sense. Thank you for the context.

 

[jan.zilka]

New Categories Calculator:

ISU Categories Calculator

Singles, Pair Skating and Ice Dance age limitations in online calculator. Based on date of birth and current ISU General ... Rule 108, section 3. Please, report any bugs or improvements proposals. https://krasobruslenibrno.cz/isu-categories-calculator/

www.goldenskate.com

 

[Skating91]

I sure hope they don't. Another year of the Georgian pair at junior worlds would be insufferable.

What did they do specifically do to offend you? Is it because they are Georgian? I'm not accusing you of anything, but it's the way you phrase your comment. It's a really strange comment. I can't think of anything they have done to be called insufferable.

They'd only be Jr eligible if the women's age would be raised too. Otherwise, Nastya Metelkina ages out after this season and they couldn't keep skating in Juniors.

Personally, I'm in favour of raising the women's age to 21, but also keeping the men's age at 21 and at most making exceptions for the group of pairs teams that would be Sr eligible under the old rules but are neither Sr nor Jr eligible now, because I also don't want to see a 21- and 23-year old competing in Juniors or a 23-year old pairing up with a 13-year old for one Jr season.

Junior competition is for children. We already have one fed trying to exploit the spirit of the age rules by teaming up a 14 year old with a soon to be 21 year old. This is appalling to me. If they are willing to do this, I would not put it past this fed or another fed to team up a 13 year old with a 23 year old in the pursuit of a medal at all costs.

If we have strict age rules in place for both juniors and seniors, then the skaters, coaches, feds will adapt. There won't be anyone trying to team up a soon to be 21 year old man with a 14 year old child. Instead feds will insist on age appropriate pairings.

If a 23 year old needs to compete against children, then international sport is not for them. I think 21 is too high for juniors. M/B are at least strong at senior level, not simply exploiting a loophole at junior level. I would have less problem with a 23 and 21 year old at junior level than a soon to be 21 year old and 14 year old. One is an issue of fairness, the other is an issue of potential exploitation.

There needs to be rules in place to ensure that pairings are appropriate until age 20/21, then if there is a large age discrepancy after then that is fine they are both adults and responsible for their choices.

 

[Mathman]

Could we possibly scale back on the Johnny-one-note propagandizing on these threads?

 

[Skating91]

Could we possibly scale back on the Johnny-one-note propagandizing on these threads?

I'm not sure if this is aimed at me, but I'm just trying to protect the physical health and psychological wellbeing of junior skaters .

 

[el henry]

I'm not sure if this is aimed at me, but I'm just trying to protect the physical health and psychological wellbeing of junior skaters .

Then I look forward to you supplying me with all the posts that you wrote in 2018 to 2022 saying that the age limit for senior skaters should be raised and that Kamila Valieva should not be permitted to participate in the Olympics due to her age. Writing those posts *prior* to the 2021 2022 season of course, since you are so very concerned about skaters' health?

Surely you must have written those posts somewhere? And you are breathing a sigh of relief that young Russian girls will never be exploited due to their age again? I look forward to reading those posts.

 

[Mathman]

I'm not sure if this is aimed at me, but I'm just trying to protect the physical health and psychological wellbeing of junior skaters .

Bottom line: For reasoms beyond the control of any individual skater, Russia and the ISU have, at least temporarily, parted ways. Russia is doing fine without the ISU. The ISU is doing fine without Russia. Everyone is happy.

As for me, I like everybody. I like all figure skaters except Wolfgang Schwarz. I like Ottavio Cinquanta, RIP. I like Alexander Lakernik. I like figure skating judges. I like the commentary of Johnny Weir and Tara Lipinski. I got no beef with anybody.

 

[gkelly]

I'm not sure if this is aimed at me, but I'm just trying to protect the physical health and psychological wellbeing of junior skaters .

At the potential expense of far fewer skaters being able to compete pairs at all at developmental levels, for lack of an available partner who fits into a narrow age range. It's not so easy to say "feds will insist on age appropriate pairings" -- the likely result in many federations is that there will be no possible pairings among their members that you would consider age appropriate, and therefore there would be no pairs.

 

[Skating91]

At the potential expense of far fewer skaters being able to compete pairs at all at developmental levels, for lack of an available partner who fits into a narrow age range. It's not so easy to say "feds will insist on age appropriate pairings" -- the likely result in many federations is that there will be no possible pairings among their members that you would consider age appropriate, and therefore there would be no pairs.

That's the whole point of raising the age limit. We are protecting children from themselves, their coaches, the ambitions of their federations.

Two years ago we heard impassioned pleas at the ISU Congress that is a medal worth risking the health of a child or a young athlete, we heard that there are identified modifiable injury risk factors that include postural control, competition anxiety, life events, previous injury, and volume of training that will protect the elite junior skater, we heard that raising the age limit to 17 would give children the time necessary to reach skeletal maturity.

People who demand the age limit in pairs be 16 are literally advocating injury, psychological and physical harm to 16 year olds, they are putting a medal ahead of the health of a 16 year old.

It's not me saying it, it is the ISU, the people who voted 100 to 16 for this, it's the medical experts the ISU brought to the congress.

What's more, it seems the impetus for lowering the age was the breaking up of a pairing of a 14 year old and a nearly 21 year old. Forget about the general physical and psychological harm brought up about by having children compete in adult competitions, but in addition we a young teenager in a situation where there is a huge power balance with a significantly older adult male. It's just adding to the potential harm to such a young, likely naive person.

If a 16 year old has to sit on the sidelines for a year if they aren't eligible, then so be it. It's for their own good. We've seen that a pair skater can be world champion at 40.

If the discipline cannot survive without resorting to knowingly causing harm to children by lowering the age limit, then so be it.

 

[gkelly]

Junior competition is for children.

Junior competition is for adolescents.

Novice and lower competition is for children.

We can recognize that teenagers are in various stages of approaching complete physical and mental/emotional growth and that most of them are legally minors without infantalizing them by lumping them into the same category with 10-year-old or younger children.

I'm not taking a position on exactly what the age limits should be for junior or senior pairs. If you want to argue in favor over 17 for all senior competitors and under 19 (as of July 1) for all juniors including male pair partners, with the recognition that some teams will have to sit out a year or two or split to find new partners as one ages out of junior competition and the other is still too young for seniors, I won't object.

But trying to make the age limits narrower than that, so that female pair partners would often be closer to full physical maturity than the male partners, would not be helpful in using junior competition as a developmental stage for competitive pairs.

Another option would be for the ISU to abolish junior (and lower level) pairs altogether and only offer competition at senior level in that discipline. What individual federations or individual rinks/coaches/clubs do with younger skaters who are interested in training toward senior pairs competition in the future could vary depending who is available in that country or in that area, or who is willing to relocate, but without the pressure of international competition.

 

[NanaPat]

What did they do specifically do to offend you? Is it because they are Georgian? I'm not accusing you of anything, but it's the way you phrase your comment. It's a really strange comment. I can't think of anything they have done to be called insufferable.

I didn't say they were insufferable. I said changing the rules to allow them another year of junior worlds would be insufferable.

There were a lot of complaints this year because they are a senior-eligible and senior-skilled team who skated junior as well. It just didn't seem fair to the "true juniors", who were far outclassed. OK, so they didn't break any rules, and they are eligible. So let them compete. Don't watch them in juniors if you don't think they should be there. OK, I can cope.

But he said in an interview (paraphrasing) that he hoped the eligibility rules would be changed so they could go to junior worlds again next year. That is besides competing senior all year, of course (he didn't say that part, but I think it's understood. He only mentioned Jr Worlds, not the JGP).

So, should the eligibility rules be changed to allow skaters who won a medal at Europeans and came top-10 at senior worlds THIS year to still go to JR Worlds NEXT year? I think it is a good argument for NOT changing the rules!