Free Dance

[sofen]

got a point...
but i have an idea to fix this "home ice" bias-ness...
why won't they hold competitions in countries in which no skater originates from...such as the philippines...vietnam....south africa....greece....etc?
hahaha

Or make the skaters anonymous during competition. It'd still be easy to identify then ones that's been around for a while, but could be an option for underrated skaters to get the marks they deserve, with less national/fed/coach bias from the judges.

A girl surely can dream, can't she?

 

[Mathman]

I think ice dancing has cleaned up its act quite a bit since the days when Yuri Balkov was recorded on tape fixing the results of the 1998 Olympics (Canada's Jean Senft was punished for reporting it to Cinquanta), and the 1999 World Championship where Babenko and Korytek were caught cheating by the TV cameras (Cinquanta prompty banned ... TV cameras from the judging areas.)

 

[Anna]

"Tapping judges" incident was in Pairs not in Dance.

And Senft was the ONLY judge who voted as intructed on the tape. And ONLY brought the tape up then she faced charges for national bias.


But I am really disgusted with the amount of Dom&Shab trashing this year. Just an year or two ago the people were saying just how wonderful they are and how they are better than Navka&Kostomarov and how they are being held down because they are Russia#2... Now what they hava made tremedous progress in presentation skills and got an excellent FD, which suits them perfectly and generally skated really well, the people are just pissed off because they are the best Russians and they are winning. If you read the comments one would think that they cannot put their feet right and are no better than Frazer&Lukanin.

I also believed that Del&Sch should have beaten B&A in FD (because the quality of choreography, the originality of the elements and, yes, basic skating skills are simply uncomparable between the two), but being there live I cannot imagine any possible reason to think that Dom&Shab did not deserve to win the FD.

Oh, yeah, I forgot, they are Russians... That's a very solid argument. Afterall we all know what Russians never win fairly.....

 

[Anna]

I refer to P&B's FD lift at SA being declared "illegal" and not scored, but by the time of TEB a few weeks later, apparantly it was "okay".....:scratch:

They claimed that the caller called it wrong at SA. The lift is at the borderline, IMHO. The rules say the man hands cannot be higher than his head and then Fabien hold Nathalie his hands are about his neck level... if he raise them higher, for whatever reasons, it would be illegal. It's just because Nathalie is so "high" that the lift appear illegal even if it is formally correct.

 

[Anna]

Your PCS can jump from under 7s to 8s from March world championships in ice dance???

You can have at least 3 different answers.

a. everything is fair and that's how the things are
b. they got the right marks back then and now they are being pushed up
c. they got lower marks back then and now they are being judged fairly.

In case of Dom&Shab I believe that for SS, TR and CH I think c) is right answer and for IN and P/E execution is the a) because they have really improved.

But trust everyone to jump to the conclusion that b) is the only right answer, just because they have RUS next to their names.

There were all those people then B&A suddenly started to beat the teams they never beat in past. And got higher Skating Skills marks than, say, Denkova&Stavisky who are simly light years ahead of them in this particular criteria? No, back then, life was fair, because Americans were suddently getting what they deserved long time ago...

And now we are back to Cold War.

Disgusting.

 

[JonnyCoop]

Shpilband was also responsible for a lot of excessively perky obnoxious Latin-themed free dances for the American couples he coached in the mid-90s, which IMO set US ice dancing back a good 10 years. Based on the Worlds results these got, they didn't seem to go over especially well with the international judges, especially when the Russians, French, and Canadians were doing stuff that was infinitely more interesting. I didn't know Shpilband was responsible for B/A's free dance this year. That would explain a lot. :sheesh:

 

[Mathman]

"Tapping judges" incident was in Pairs not in Dance.

Oh, sorry. Ever since Salt Lake City I get my pairs and dance mixed up.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Piseev is still a powerhouse at the ISU but much of the Soviet way of coaching is disappearing. In Pairs they are still using the holdovers, and hoping Plush hangs around.

They still have a lot of talent in Russia. Winning for the State is not important any more. They need to find a way of getting the talent to move forward. It doesn't have to be immediately, I think they will find the way and then we will have great Russian skating again.

Joe

 

[lanadd]

You can have at least 3 different answers.

a. everything is fair and that's how the things are
b. they got the right marks back then and now they are being pushed up
c. they got lower marks back then and now they are being judged fairly.

In case of Dom&Shab I believe that for SS, TR and CH I think c) is right answer and for IN and P/E execution is the a) because they have really improved.

But trust everyone to jump to the conclusion that b) is the only right answer, just because they have RUS next to their names.

There were all those people then B&A suddenly started to beat the teams they never beat in past. And got higher Skating Skills marks than, say, Denkova&Stavisky who are simly light years ahead of them in this particular criteria? No, back then, life was fair, because Americans were suddently getting what they deserved long time ago...

And now we are back to Cold War.

Disgusting.

I totally agree with you. All the medals of B/A are due unfortunately more to a political strengths then to skating ones.But i doubt that many here will understand you.Most of them are americans, and it is clear why they do think B/A are good enough for a medal

 

[Ptichka]

i still don't understand why the judges marked down del/sch's twizzles down to a level 1 for a simple step out when he ends up perfectly with her...
is it always like that: deserving a level four withough a mistake and if you step out it suddenly downgrades into a level 1?
and i don't get why their serpentine lift got a level 2 either...
anyone know?

ITA. The penalty should have come from GoE, not from level.

 

[Anna]

ITA. The penalty should have come from GoE, not from level.

Why? "What the "worst" partner did" is rather consistent rule in CoP. If in Pairs one partner doubles the jump the team is credited with double, no matter what the other partner did. If one partner did not complete neccessary rotations for the level 4 twizzles the team is only credited for whatever rotation he/she completed.

 

[chuckm]

1795, i ll tell you my opinion about this competition. There is an interview with A.Gorshkov, where he explains very well who and how support B/A winning their medals. And the judges are waiting for the smallest mistakes of the other teams, so that pushing B/A ahead will seem almost ok, and without a big scandal. But they don't have the half of the skating class of Del/S and they have an awlful FD. How could anybody(even the americans) compare the FD of B/A with the one of THE FRENCH and even the russian-even if skated with small mistake, they are still far better than the one of B/A!!!They should have been on 3rd place if everything was fair. So what russian mafia are some talking about- it is an AMERICAN one!!

That is just so much bunk! The fact is that DomShabs fell in the OD---that is no "small mistake". And in the FD, DelShoes messed up their twizzles and didn't hold a lift long enough to get the higher level. B/A won the competition because they didn't make any mistakes. If they had, they would have been fighting to hold onto 3rd place!

Gorshkov is full of it. After the OD, I assumed DelShoes would win the competition because their FD is better than B/A's, but DelShoes was sacrificed for the benefit of the Russian team, not for B/A! DomShabs' OD mistake was far worse than DelShoes', but DelShoes took a MAJOR scoring hit just to make sure that DomShabs won the FD and the silver medal.

All this talk about an American mafia is a joke. Look at the composition of the judging panel:   HUN,   ITA,   POL,   AZE,   GBR,   UZB,   CAN,   FRA,   RUS,   USA. The fact is that the AZE and UZB judges are both Russian, so there are THREE Russian judges on the panel.

Furthermore, the Referee and Tech panels are all European as well: the referee is Bulgarian, the Tech Controller is Russian, and the tech specs Polish and Swiss.

With 11 out of 13 officials being European, where is this "American mafia"?

Methinks Mr. Gorshkov is doing a little projection of his own guilt.

 

[hockeyfan228]

All the medals of B/A are due unfortunately more to a political strengths then to skating ones.But i doubt that many here will understand you.Most of them are americans, and it is clear why they do think B/A are good enough for a medal

The US and Canada surely have a string of dominance to suggest that they are powerful politikers for their dance teams. All of those Olympic medals, and Shpilband having immediate results after beginning his career in the US in the 1990's. The championship lists are just full of his gold-medal winning teams.

 

[chuckm]

Ah, yes the political strengths! When there is a US judge on a judging panel, all the other judges, even those from Russia and the former SSRs and Eastern European countries, defer to their wishes.

In a pig's eye! I have become so disgusted with the manipulation of the judging panels, and Russia "lending" judges to former SSRs so they can stack the deck for their Ice Dancers. Then the Russians complain about an American mafia!

 

[Mathman]

...And now we are back to Cold War.

It is kind of ironic to me that the ending of the cold war seems to have brought with it a decreased interest in the Olympic Games and in competitive figure skating generally.

In the good old days (we boycott you, then you boycott us), there was a lot of flag waving over the question of whose system could prove its superiority by producing the better athletes. To me, that kind of politics seems sort of quaint now.

But there still seem to be some "big frog in a little pond" types left over who play up their own importance by trying to influence ice dancing judging. (?) Go figure.

 

[chuckm]

Mathman, the Russians are in serious trouble in all three of four disciplines. There are no consistent men, and there are no lady medal contenders at all. In Pairs, they have an aging older couple hanging on to produce medals, and a promising new pair (Kawaguchi/Smirnov) but no bonafide gold medal candidate.

The only discipline where the Russians have a chance at gold (and I'm talking immediate gold as well as 2010 gold) is ice dance, and they will concentrate all their political pull in that direction. It is no fluke that DomShabs are now defeating all the teams that have beaten them over the past 4 years. That was pre-ordained when they became the #1 Russian team.

It isn't "cold war" stuff at all. It's just normal ice dance politics, and the Russians have much more influence with European judges than the US could ever have. Once Denkova/Staviiski have moved on, look for DomShabs to become unbeatable, just as N/K were.

 

[Anna]

Just curious, have you actually seen either CoR or CoC?

Sorry, but Bel&Ago FD is just awful... they are majorily held up to receive the PCS within less than a point of either of D&S's... I would have possibly ranked TEB performance by Del&Sch ahead of Dom&Sch FD in Moscow, but comparing two actual performances the score was justified.

But it seems all what matter to the fans is preserving the protocol Beating the couple you have never beaten before? No way you can improve that much! If you are Russian, that is. B&A, of course well deserved their 13-7-5-2 jumps throught the ranks and the D&L's jump from 7 to 2 was a totally fair

 

[Anna]

DomShabs' OD mistake was far worse than DelShoes', but DelShoes took a MAJOR scoring hit just to make sure that DomShabs won the FD and the silver medal.

Oliver put the second feet down on his first twizzle which is exactly as bad as what Maxim did except for -1 penalty for fall. And that was exactly what they received for this element. I have to rewatch the dance to see the serpentine lift again, unlike B&A's in their case not holding positions for 3 sec wasn't as obvious, but it still might be a legitimate deduction as well.

 

[La Rhumba]

Shpilband was also responsible for a lot of excessively perky obnoxious Latin-themed free dances for the American couples he coached in the mid-90s, which IMO set US ice dancing back a good 10 years. Based on the Worlds results these got, they didn't seem to go over especially well with the international judges, especially when the Russians, French, and Canadians were doing stuff that was infinitely more interesting. I didn't know Shpilband was responsible for B/A's free dance this year. That would explain a lot. :sheesh:

Sorry! I couldn't let this comment pass.

Punsalan/Swallow's Latin FD at Winter Olympics 1998 was an absolute classic, and my fave at that event. Pure quality icedancing, great choreo and interpretation, and grossly undermarked.

Oh, and Robin Cousins agreed with me. :agree:

 

[Big Deal]

Russian-American maffia

The reason why Belbin/Agosto was held up so disgustingly a year before the Oly is simple: judges wanted to send a clear message to everyone : the best couple behind Navka/Kostomarov is the one, who will not be able to participate at the Oly, because Tanith's citizenship problem. So the Russian couple is the only contender for gold.

Shock No1:Tanith got her citizenship, they has been there. What else to do?
Give them the silver again. But this silver were belonged to the Bulgarian, French or Lithuanian team in the reality!!

Shock No2.:Navka/Kostomarov retired after Oly. So, this unpolished, held-up team (B/A), who definitely was NOT a World Champion material had the chance to win the gold. I told you before the World, It is NOT going to happen, and never will. If Navka/Kostomarov were at the World the order would be the same than at the Oly. But making a WordlChampion from Belbin/Agosto was really an idea over the top ! They got the Bronz, and they start to get their REAL points since than.
Belbin/Agosto already played its role to held Navka/Kostomarov (also the weekest Oly Champ team since Linnichuk/karponosov, who won their Oly gold with a fall against the flawless Regőczy/Sallay-who got a quick WorldChampion title a few weeks later as a pay-back...)up to the Oly.
They got the pay-back to get the silver at the World 2005 and at the Oly 2006.

What else they want to reach?

We don't need to cry for them. We need to cry for Delobel/Schönfelder,
Drobiazko/Vanagas etc. etc.

Denkova/Staviyski and Dubreuil/Lauzon also will be surprised if any of them will stay eligible after this season... This maffia will start to build the 2 Russian spots on the next Oly podium up (Domnina/Shabalin and Khokhlova/ ....).
That is not a sport....... But very pleasing to watch it. That is why it is painful, playing with so many talented athlet's work....