Why are the US Ladies not retiring?

[el henry]

And I actually don’t have a problem with skaters who train “on their parents dime”. They are showing determination, ambition, and dedication to a purpose. Unfortunately our funding for skaters is catch as catch can in the US, and they need to tap every resource they can.

I might be *jealous* that they have parents who have the dimes that my folks never had, but that’s a different matter

 

[concorde]

And I actually don’t have a problem with skaters who train “on their parents dime”. They are showing determination, ambition, and dedication to a purpose. Unfortunately our funding for skaters is catch as catch can in the US, and they need to tap every resource they can.

I might be *jealous* that they have parents who have the dimes that my folks never had, but that’s a different matter

Some parents do have the $$ but they refuse to spend it on such a sport. For a young skater to succeed, the skater needs a lot of luck for the two to mesh.

 

[princessalica]

Pretty much this.

Like, there's seems to be such an attitude of condescension toward skaters who skate and train and compete even though they might never make it to Worlds or even to the international GP circuit, but there are levels of figure skating that are lower than the elite international level, and skaters with lower/more realistic goals than that, and that's okay. Why shouldn't we respect the athletes at lower levels of the sport?

(I do think there's probably something negative to be said for athletes who train and compete on their parents' dime as adults, but hey, they're no different than anyone else who lives off of their rich parents, and I disrespect all of them equally. )

Carly Gold wanted to make it senior nationals before she retired. I don’t think she had any expectations of reaching Gracie’s scores, but was thrilled to be there competing. And that’s even at the national elite level.

 

[Tavi...]

Perhaps they don't understand what the skaters think, but they might have sympathy for them based on the poor results some of them keep getting no matter how long they stay and train.

Sorry, don’t mean to be dumb, but I’m still a little unclear. By “they” do you mean the poster I originally responded to? If so, I can only say that the post seemed more judgmental than sympathetic (or empathetic) to me, but of course my impression may be wrong.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I’m confused, then.

Are your comments about holding people up directed primarily at Ashley? Do you think Mirai, who is 25, should have stepped aside for a younger skater at the Olympics? Or did her hard work and achievement of a 3A there make it okay even though she was not a medal contender there or at Worlds by any stretch of the imagination?

It’s the same thing with the guys, really. Jason is 23 - younger than Mirai. At 2017 Nats he was given the benefit of the doubt due to injury and selected for Worlds, and he not only delivered when it counted, but smashed his own PB by 6-7 points and achieved the highest ever score for a quadless SP - and then broke his own record a few weeks later. Yes he had a bad year this year, but that’s not a reason why he shouldn’t have been selected in 2017.

If you’re thinking that Jason simply shouldn’t have been given the benefit of doubt due to injury in 2017, then should we excuse Vincent’s poor performance at this year’s Worlds due to injury? Because since he’s been to the Olympics, it can’t really be excused on the grounds that he’s inexperienced competing at the senior level.

Maybe I’m dumb, but I’m just not clear what you’re trying to say.

What I'm trying to say is that, whether or not someone is a veteran, they should earn their coveted Worlds spots on achievement and not reputation. Less prominent skaters are disadvantaged when veterans take spots on the basis of reputation because that gives the up-and-coming skaters fewer opportunities to build their own reputation in the sport. Russia, for example, would not hold up technically weaker veterans, and while that means many World and Olympic medalists sit on the sidelines, a few more athletes have opportunities to shine. Since 2013, through 6 Worlds and 2 Olympics, seven different US women participated in those events, while ten Russian women have.

 

[andromache]

What I'm trying to say is that, whether or not someone is a veteran, they should earn their coveted Worlds spots on achievement and not reputation. Less prominent skaters are disadvantaged when veterans take spots on the basis of reputation because that gives the up-and-coming skaters fewer opportunities to build their own reputation in the sport. Russia, for example, would not hold up technically weaker veterans, and while that means many World and Olympic medalists sit on the sidelines, a few more athletes have opportunities to shine. Since 2013, through 6 Worlds and 2 Olympics, seven different US women participated in those events, while ten Russian women have.

Do you think that the US has a tendency to send weaker veterans based on reputation to Worlds/Olympics? I tend to think they don't - they go based on past achievements (within a certain reasonable time frame), in order to try and forecast how well someone will do in the future, i.e., at Worlds/Olympics.

 

[concorde]

A newbie skater does not have a "body of work" to rely on. In that sense, a newbie skater is always at a disadvantage.

 

[andromache]

A newbie skater does not have a "body of work" to rely on. In that sense, a newbie skater is always at a disadvantage.

It depends on how new a newbie skater is. Most skaters who are capable of surpassing veterans have a body of work from the junior level or at smaller competitions. These can still constitute a body of work. Polina Edmunds had a decent body of work at the junior level in 2014, and USFS went with her over Mirai. Bradie's body of work from last summer at smaller competitions earned her the Skate America spot and she went from there. Prior to last summer, her body of consisted mostly of pretty lackluster results at the junior level internationally.

More veteran skaters have more substantial of a body of work, and sometimes that can be used against them. Ashley's GP outings in 2017-2018 didn't do her any favors.

 

[TontoK]

Do you think that the US has a tendency to send weaker veterans based on reputation to Worlds/Olympics? I tend to think they don't - they go based on past achievements (within a certain reasonable time frame), in order to try and forecast how well someone will do in the future, i.e., at Worlds/Olympics.

The very recent example of Ross Miner is validation for your view.

 

[concorde]

It depends on how new a newbie skater is. Most skaters who are capable of surpassing veterans have a body of work from the junior level or at smaller competitions. These can still constitute a body of work. Polina Edmunds had a decent body of work at the junior level in 2014, and USFS went with her over Mirai. Bradie's body of work from last summer at smaller competitions earned her the Skate America spot and she went from there. Prior to last summer, her body of consisted mostly of pretty lackluster results at the junior level internationally.

More veteran skaters have more substantial of a body of work, and sometimes that can be used against them. Ashley's GP outings in 2017-2018 didn't do her any favors.

Agree but . . .
A summer domestic competition should not receive the same "base vales" as an international competition nor should a Junior competition receive the same base value as a Senior competition. So an up and coming junior/senior cannot have the same body of work as an established senior.

So comparing both is not an apples to apples comparison but rather a apple to pineapple comparison.

 

[Tavi...]

What I'm trying to say is that, whether or not someone is a veteran, they should earn their coveted Worlds spots on achievement and not reputation. Less prominent skaters are disadvantaged when veterans take spots on the basis of reputation because that gives the up-and-coming skaters fewer opportunities to build their own reputation in the sport. Russia, for example, would not hold up technically weaker veterans, and while that means many World and Olympic medalists sit on the sidelines, a few more athletes have opportunities to shine. Since 2013, through 6 Worlds and 2 Olympics, seven different US women participated in those events, while ten Russian women have.

If you’re against veterans earning assignments based on reputation, why does it matter if younger skaters have the opportunity to build a reputation?

I absolutely agree that skaters should earn their assignments. I just think that my idea of “earning an assignment” may be somewhat different to yours. For one, I don’t think high BV is the only factor that determines success internationally. For another, if you care about opportunities for developing younger skaters, you really have to care about “spots” - which means in making assignments, you have to consider the skater’s proven ability to deliver results. And yes, that means younger skaters need opportunities to prove they can reliably deliver. That doesn’t necessarily mean immediately sending them to Worlds. I think USFS got it right with Bradie - beginning last summer, she began to demonstrate a consistent ability to deliver, and was offered a series of increasingly more high profile assignments.

As to the comparison between the US and Russian Olympic and Worlds teams, I’m not sure how comparable the situation is because Russia has a much deeper pool of skaters to choose from. Frankly, though, I don’t think the revolving door policy is that great.

 

[chuckm]

One might also ask why some of these ladies aren't retiring:

Rika Hongo
Mae Berenice Meite
Nicole Rajicova
Serafima Sakanovich
Alaine Chartrand
Ivett Toth
Eliska Brezinova
So Youn Park

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Or Alena Leonova or Yura Matsuda or practically anyone not raking in the medals. They'll retire when they want to.

By the way, I like how Russia does it: still support the veterans but don't prop them up, if their content isn't enough to compete, they don't get major assignments. Of course, they can still skate for their own desire, though.

 

[andromache]

Agree but . . .
A summer domestic competition should not receive the same "base vales" as an international competition nor should a Junior competition receive the same base value as a Senior competition. So an up and coming junior/senior cannot have the same body of work as an established senior.

So comparing both is not an apples to apples comparison but rather a apple to pineapple comparison.

It's an apple to pineapple comparison, sure, but it's still valid, and you can compare two kind-of different things with some amount of nuance and still come to an informed conclusion about who is most likely to succeed at any specific assignment based on their different bodies of work. An up and coming junior or senior cannot have the same body of work as a veteran senior, but being a Junior Worlds champion, for example, is probably worth a heck of a lot more than being a veteran senior who hasn't medaled on the GP circuit in 2 years. If their resumes seem relatively similar (maybe a Junior Worlds champ versus a regular GP medal winner GPF finalist), well, that's what Nationals is for.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I absolutely agree that skaters should earn their assignments. I just think that my idea of “earning an assignment” may be somewhat different to yours. For one, I don’t think high BV is the only factor that determines success internationally. For another, if you care about opportunities for developing younger skaters, you really have to care about “spots” - which means in making assignments, you have to consider the skater’s proven ability to deliver results. And yes, that means younger skaters need opportunities to prove they can reliably deliver. That doesn’t necessarily mean immediately sending them to Worlds. I think USFS got it right with Bradie - beginning last summer, she began to demonstrate a consistent ability to deliver, and was offered a series of increasingly more high profile assignments.

As to the comparison between the US and Russian Olympic and Worlds teams, I’m not sure how comparable the situation is because Russia has a much deeper pool of skaters to choose from. Frankly, though, I don’t think the revolving door policy is that great.

It isn't so much about BV as it is how elements are judged in the US versus by international panels. When you ignore rotation and edge problems of the favorites, it disproportionately effects those who don't have technical problems.

I agree with your point about spots, and there should be a mix of proven skaters sent with less experienced ones when future spots, or a team medal, would be at risk with a meltdown.

I'm probably complaining about a problem that isn't so serious, given we don't have a lot of talented juniors in the pipeline. I just hope that, when we do have a skater on the brink of big things, they aren't brushed aside in favor of someone who has a strong "body of work" merely because they got to participate in big events as a result of previous Nationals results.

 

[Skater Boy]

I have to admit Mirai really seemed to have checked out after her team event bronze. She didn't seem to have that drive or push. I think she is enjoying her 10 seconds of fame. I do wonder if this is all on her own or does her connection with Rippon help. She sometimes seems a bit "forced" in respect to personality like she is doing this for tv and media attention. I mean she does not have an individual world or olympic title. She has not won the nationals in a long long time. Like a fading actress trying to hold on to the last glimpses of skating hope.

 

[Amei]

I have to admit Mirai really seemed to have checked out after her team event bronze. She didn't seem to have that drive or push. I think she is enjoying her 10 seconds of fame. I do wonder if this is all on her own or does her connection with Rippon help. She sometimes seems a bit "forced" in respect to personality like she is doing this for tv and media attention. I mean she does not have an individual world or olympic title. She has not won the nationals in a long long time. Like a fading actress trying to hold on to the last glimpses of skating hope.

Well she is the only US woman to land a 3a at the Olympics which is actually an achievement - its not like Rippon was challenging for an individual Olympic medal and he doesn't have a Worlds medal either.

Though I agree with you regarding Mirai about at the Olympics after her Team event performance/bronze medal. It was like she did what she wanted to accomplish and the fire seemed out of her after that.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

One might also ask why some of these ladies aren't retiring:

Rika Hongo
Mae Berenice Meite
Nicole Rajicova
Serafima Sakanovich
Alaine Chartrand
Ivett Toth
Eliska Brezinova
So Youn Park

Well, for one, most of them are still relatively young.

Hongo is 21
Meite is 23
Rajicova is 22
Sakhanovich is 18
Chartrand is 22
Toth is 19
Brezinova is 22
Park is 20.

Many of them are still able to do the harder triples and 3+3 combos. Some of them haven't even been on the senior circuit very long, e.g. Sakhanovich has had 2 senior seasons. So, why should they retire?

 

[BillNeal]

A little shady for OP to post this on the Fourth of July :think:

 

[Eeyora]

It may be a little bit offtopic and not relevant to others but I’ve been thinking. None of the ladies from the 2016 US Nationals podium (not counting Mirai’s pewter) made it to the 2018 Olympics. And Nor did 5 out of the the top 7 from 2016 Worlds. It’s just proof the sport is moving faster than ever.