Skaters qualifying for the Final

[enlight78]

Well in High School Track regulations. Most races have several heats but they take the eight best times and put them in the final to race again. But in the sprints like 100 meter dash there are so many entering the event that they take the first two (sometimes three depending on the size of the meet) in each heat in the preliminaries. I forgot how many qualify from each heat in the quarter finals. It might just be one. Then you know their is the final.

 

[Zuranthium]

Personally, I like the rules. Win or go home. Just like a real sporting event.

Complaining about how tough the competition was, that's what losers do.

Sorry, but the competition Sebastyen faced in order to qualify for her GPF spot is liking comparing boxing matches between one guy who had to fight a frail 90 year old woman and another who had to fight a grizzly bear.

You're gonna stand there and tell me that the guy who beats up the 90 year old woman deserves more praise than the guy who put up a good fight against the grizzly bear and lost?

In track and field they use a clock to measure time...even the ISU judges could just about manage that but snice figure skating scores are given out by a different panel of judges (some of whose marks the computer throws out) then you can't really compare the scores of one judging panel with that of another competition.

Ant

The CoP system is supposed to be about Globalized results; high scores that can be compared over time. Scores are no longer just "placeholders" like they often were under 6.0. Although a judging panel might be slightly harsher at one competition than another, the randomized nature of the scores makes it so that things should mostly average out.

Also, even if you were to assume that all of Sebastyen's scores were given by "hard" judges and the 3 ladies who scored higher than her had "easier" judges, Sebastyen would still pretty much be trailing all 3 of them if you simply look at what each lady accomplished in their programs.

~Z

 

[Mathman]

You're gonna stand there and tell me that the guy who beats up the 90 year old woman deserves more praise than the guy who put up a good fight against the grizzly bear and lost?

Not more praise, but the right to move on to the next round. (In round two we have the guy who beat up the old lady versus the grizzly bear for all the marbles.)

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Sorry, but the competition Sebastyen faced in order to qualify for her GPF spot is liking comparing boxing matches between one guy who had to fight a frail 90 year old woman and another who had to fight a grizzly bear.

You're gonna stand there and tell me that the guy who beats up the 90 year old woman deserves more praise than the guy who put up a good fight against the grizzly bear and lost?

~Z

This is the best quote of 2006!!!

 

[antmanb]

The CoP system is supposed to be about Globalized results; high scores that can be compared over time. Scores are no longer just "placeholders" like they often were under 6.0. Although a judging panel might be slightly harsher at one competition than another, the randomized nature of the scores makes it so that things should mostly average out.
~Z

And that is one o fthe biggest flaws of COP - it doesn't produce globalised results. Peronal bests that are so by a couple of marks are meaningless since the score may have come out a different way if the computers random selection of marks had gone another way. A meaningful comparison cannot be made.

I, like MM, like the rules as they are - you win you go to teh final, you don't yo're left waiting to see.

trying to tak ean exmaple of a sport i actually like - Tennis, sometimes the seeding gets messed up and you end up with one half of the draw benig earier than the other...would you complain that the wrong people made the semis or th finals just because one person may have had an easier match than another?

Luck of the draw and perofmrance of the day...

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Sorry, but the competition Sebastyen faced in order to qualify for her GPF spot is liking comparing boxing matches between one guy who had to fight a frail 90 year old woman and another who had to fight a grizzly bear.

You're gonna stand there and tell me that the guy who beats up the 90 year old woman deserves more praise than the guy who put up a good fight against the grizzly bear and lost?
~Z

So Mikki Ando ad Yu Na Kim are grizzly bears and Yukari Nakano adn Sarah Meier ar 90 year old women?

Sorry the image was too funny!

I think the comparisons are a little extreme, but colourful and funny!

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

My own prediction here for all of the disciplines is to look for any contest where a skater has been replaced by an alternate because that alternate will win.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

My own prediction here for all of the disciplines is to look for any contest where a skater has been replaced by an alternate because that alternate will win.

Joe

Ooooh interesting...any ideas yet on who the alternate might be?

Any news on why Preabert wasn't at french nationals?

Ant

 

[kajsa]

Any news on why Preabert wasn't at french nationals?

I read somewhere that he had a back injury or something like that, so he had to whitdrew.

 

[Zuranthium]

And that is one o fthe biggest flaws of COP - it doesn't produce globalised results. Peronal bests that are so by a couple of marks are meaningless since the score may have come out a different way if the computers random selection of marks had gone another way. A meaningful comparison cannot be made.

I don't agree with the random selection of marks, I think they should simply drop the lowest + highest and average the rest, but it gives you a good enough idea.

Let's look at all of the total scores for these ladies and their Grand Prix performances:

Kimmie MEISSNER = 335.81

Sarah MEIER = 328.18

Joannie ROCHETTE = 325.38

Yukari NAKANO = 312.2

Julia SEBESTYEN = 300.55


That is a HUGE difference. Even taking into account the random scores and different difficulty of judging, it's plain to see that Nakano and especially Rochette and Meissner performed better than Sebestyen. Nakano can't go to the GPF anyway because 3 Japanese ladies already did better than her, but Sebestyen flat out STOLE Kimmie Meissner's spot and if for some reason Kimmie couldn't make it, then she stole Rochette's spot.

It's a disgrace, really.

From now on the Grand Prix assignments need to be roughly equal by looking at the average scores each skater achieved the year before and then placing them in such a way that makes the competitions more level. Although, that's not even what matters. THE HIGHEST SCORES should determine who goes to the GPF - no if's, and's, or but's about it.

~Z

 

[Mathman]

Nakano can't go to the GPF anyway because 3 Japanese ladies already did better than her,...

Is there a rule about how many can go from each country? Is it just for the senior Grand Prix? In the junior GP finals there are five U.S. ladies and five U.S. men.

 

[Zuranthium]

Also...

Julia Sebestyen should have placed 3rd at Cup of China anyway, not 1st. She beat Yukari Nakano and Emily Hughes at that competition by just 2 points and if you look at the protocols, both Nakano and Hughes had jumps unfairly downgraded by the tech specialist.

In fact, Hughes had THREE of her triples downgraded in her long program. I've watched the performance several times and none of those triples had more than the allowed quarter turn cheat. PLUS, she did a Beillman spin that was only given a level 1, I don't think that was correct. She should have won the competition. If given correct credit for those jumps, she also would have had a much higher overall Grand Prix score than Sebestyen.

Which means that Sebestyen is truly the TENTH ranked competitor for this Grand Prix season. Yet, according to the "placements" she's actually 2nd, right behind Miki Ando. GROSS.

~Z

 

[Mathman]

Sometimes the question of consistency of judging from one competition to another actually plays more than a hypothetical role.

In the dance discipline this year, with five places in the final more or less given from the get-go, it came down to Gregory & Petukov versus Khohklova & Novitski at NHK for the 6th and last seed.

Khokhlova and Novitski beat Gregory and Petukov in each of the three phases of the competition (just barely), which left them tied with 24 GP points apiece, and also tied after the first tie-breaker, each with a second and a third.

In the second tie-breaker Melissa and Dennis won because they received more points from the judges on their home turf in Skate America than K&N did at Cup of China, where all eyes were on Domina/Shabulin vs Belbin Agosto.

At Skate America there was no real contest, because Denkova and Stavitski were going to win and Gregory and Petukov would be second no matter what. So why not inflate the scores of the American couple a little and give the U.S. audience something to cheer about?

 

[Zuranthium]

Sometimes the question of consistency of judging from one competition to another actually plays more than a hypothetical role.

I won't argue this very much.

All I'm going to say is Kimmie Meissner was ahead of Sebestyen by 35 points this Grand Prix season. No matter what kind of judging was going on, she clearly did better and should have a spot in the GPF.

~Z

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I read somewhere that he had a back injury or something like that, so he had to whitdrew.

If Preaubert has withdrawn, I believe it will be Davydov to replace him. Not too far a trip for him to jump in at the last minute. How nice that would be for him to skate in Russia in an important competition. If there is a melt down or a mark down for too many jumps, he might medal.

Zuranthium - I agree too many rules and trust me, we have posters that will uphold those rules. I tried desperately to have Mao go to the Olys but it was not I got bombarded with the RULES. However, in your case that has some validity in another system would be in order for change.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Actually, I did try to look at that, but I was not able to come up with any statistics worth noting.

The problem is that if one event has higher overall scores than another, I can't tell whether the judges were more generous or the skating was just better.

It would also be interesting to track tendencies of individual judges, or of all the judges from a particular country or bloc of countries. But the secret judging makes this impossible.

MM. That makes me feel better.

I feel the Sport has plenty of needless mystery and censorship, and to take the points from one competition as gospel for the future just doesn't go well with me.

Joe

 

[Spun Silver]

Great debate! Each of you has me convinced you're right ... until I read the next rebuttal.

I think I am going to side with Zuranthium because skating is the most individual of sports - you really want to know if this individual is the best in the world, at least at the moment of competition. And the matches are very few in number. So you really need/want him/her to compete against the best... not just those who got a lucky draw. Otherwise, the victory is rather meaningless.

 

[jennylovskt]

I want Brian Joubert to win the mens title, b/c his SP and LP are best out of all of the men competing this season.

Brian Joubert will win at GPF. The podium will belong to Joubert, Takahashi, and Oda. Johnny needs a good fight for not being the last.

 

[enlight78]

All I want to say is I would like to have a very compettive field in the gran prix final. If who makes it to the final must depend on placements in individual prixes. Why don't they just take the ones that medaled from every event and put them in them in the final. I would have felt much better about that.

Women's would then be: Miki Ando;Julia Sebestyen;Mao Asawda; Yu-Na Kim;Fumie Sugurie; Sarah Mier;Joannie Rochette;Kimmie Miessner; Yukari Nakano; Emily Hughes; and Yoshie Onda.

 

[Zuranthium]

I do think that 6 competitors is too few for the GPF. I'd like to see the top 10 based on overall scores from the Grand Prix events.

~Z