At what point ISU will start to allow quads in Ladies SP?

[satine]

The only reason I knew there was a poll was because people mentioned it. For me it doesn’t show up.

Does the link in the OP take you anywhere? I thought it was a poll on GS at first (I was on mobile), but it's actually on strawpoll.

 

[lzxnl]

If you mean from Junior Worlds last year, I would have called it under, the cheated takeoff is an issue. She's getting a free pass on her cheated Quad Toeloop takeoffs too, it's even more visibly glaring there. Very annoying and not what the sport should be valuing.

How does one cheat a salchow entrance? It wasn't that prerotated to me and I personally thought it was rotated.

 

[DSQ]

Does the link in the OP take you anywhere? I thought it was a poll on GS at first (I was on mobile), but it's actually on strawpoll.

It’s weird but there wasn’t a link there for me but there is now. ;-S

 

[Miller]

I agree. The purposes of the long and short programs have switched. Now it is the SP that has become a "balanced program" featuring the interweaving of various skills, while the LP has become jump, jump, jump.

I would quite like to see quads allowed in Ladies’ SPs, but that the SP should be even more of a technical test for both men and women.

E.g. Allow just a single quad, and have a proscribed jump, just like in juniors. For example you never get Shoma Uno doing a Lutz or Mikhail Kolyada a flip. Such a test would force them to show that all round ability.

Similarly I wonder about the need for 3 spins in the SP, they’re almost always identical to the ones the skaters do in the LP, and why not have something like a 2nd sequence e.g. choreographic or even figures related – don’t know how the latter might actually work, but someone out there might have a good idea.

My ideal SP would look something like, for both men and women.

1 jump combo

1 proscribed jump (could be triple or quad though, it’s more the type. If the skater does a triple they could always do the quad in the combo, but they’d only be allowed one in the program).

1 axel jump

2 spins – 1 in single position, 1 combination, either single foot or change of foot, you could also cycle round 2 out of the 3 from one year to the next, though this shouldn’t really cause the skater any problems, they’d already have 3 planned for the LP. 1 spin to have flying entry, the other not.

1 step sequence

1 other sequence as above.

Time should be OK you’ve dropped a spin that often takes a long time these day, for a sequence that should take a similar amount of time.

What do people think?

 

[gkelly]

Yes, something like that could work.

Although if there is prescribed (not proscribed) jump, you would need to allow it to be either double or triple, as is the case for juniors. In the 1970s and 80s, it was required to be double. (And at least once it was a single axel.)

I don't think it should be allowed to be quad -- save that for the combination. And if the prescribed solo jump just happens to be the takeoff of a skater's best quad, they could use the same takeoff with different revolutions for both elements, but they'd better plan the combo first and be able to shift to a backup plan, perhaps as soon as the landing of that first jump, in case they happen to triple the planned quad.

 

[doublequad]

toeloops allow up to 180 degress of PR

 

[Miller]

Yes, something like that could work.

Although if there is prescribed (not proscribed) jump, you would need to allow it to be either double or triple, as is the case for juniors. In the 1970s and 80s, it was required to be double. (And at least once it was a single axel.)

I don't think it should be allowed to be quad -- save that for the combination. And if the prescribed solo jump just happens to be the takeoff of a skater's best quad, they could use the same takeoff with different revolutions for both elements, but they'd better plan the combo first and be able to shift to a backup plan, perhaps as soon as the landing of that first jump, in case they happen to triple the planned quad.

The problem with this is they might end up Zayaking i.e. triple the quad, and where do they go with the solo jump (double or perhaps quad still allowed). Best solution might be just to say the first jump of the combo can't be the same type as that of the solo jump if a quad is not allowed as the solo jump. Alternatively you could say that it is an appropriate penalty for messing up the quad in the first place i.e. they have to do the double. Personally I'd like them to still be able to do the quad, but then that is what I was proposing in the first place.

 

[Alexz]

If you mean from Junior Worlds last year, I would have called it under, the cheated takeoff is an issue. She's getting a free pass on her cheated Quad Toeloop takeoffs too, it's even more visibly glaring there. Very annoying and not what the sport should be valuing.

well, in this case most of the current senior ladies would have their triples and triple-triples downgraded to lousy doubles in the heartbeat.

 

[DanseMacabre]

Maybe we'd have more women training quads if the current ISU rules didn't disincentive them for women. "There aren't many women doing them" is such a silly justification for a rule that doesn't allow women to perform them for a good chunk of the competition. These things aren't unrelated.

Besides, not that many women were doing triple Axels when the rule changed to allow women to do more than just a double for the solo Axel requirement in the short program. And yet, it was still changed. So really, the argument doesn't hold water.

I say either ban it for both sexes in the senior SP (which they obviously won't do) or don't ban it at all. Not allowing women to do quads in the SP when men are is as antiquated an idea as not letting them wear pants. Considering how long it took to change that rule (and the triple Axel limitation) for women, I'm not holding my breath on the ISU making a speedy change.

 

[Blades of Passion]

well, in this case most of the current senior ladies would have their triples and triple-triples downgraded to lousy doubles in the heartbeat.

Well not all the way down to doubles, but there should be more < calls happening and certainly way less GOE being given out. I think a lot of the Triples are still "okay" on the rotation, but they shouldn't be getting high GOE, because of the clearly pulled-around entrances that are causing less overall rotation and generally less amplitude.

 

[Alexz]

Well not all the way down to doubles, but there should be more < calls happening and certainly way less GOE being given out. I think a lot of the Triples are still "okay" on the rotation, but they shouldn't be getting high GOE, because of the clearly pulled-around entrances that are causing less overall rotation and generally less amplitude.

Almost all triples by nearly all senior ladies are pre-rotated. Same goes to senior men and quads. We been discussed this many times here already. I remember Sam did few very good jumpatron videos, where it was obvious - all senior ladies pre-rotates. At least this was the case back in 2017. I doubt something have changed.

 

[Roast Toast]

Almost all triples by nearly all senior ladies are pre-rotated. Same goes to senior men and quads. We been discussed this many times here already. I remember Sam did few very good jumpatron videos, where it was obvious - all senior ladies pre-rotates. At least this was the case back in 2017. I doubt something have changed.

I think there is actually a decent crop of ladies who don't prerotate much — at least on most jumps; -3Ts and -2T-2Los are another matter sadly — it's just that most of them are either prone to chronic URs or fall a lot. Lena Radionova is a recent example of a skater with obviously many issues with jump technique that is (was? :sad21 however not particularly prone to prerotation. For the purest of purists though I agree... there's Liza, Caro... uh... Who else?

 

[Alexz]

I think there is actually a decent crop of ladies who don't prerotate much — at least on most jumps; -3Ts and -2T-2Los are another matter sadly — it's just that most of them are either prone to chronic URs or fall a lot. Lena Radionova is a recent example of a skater with obviously many issues with jump technique that is (was? :sad21 however not particularly prone to prerotation. For the purest of purists though I agree... there's Liza, Caro... uh... Who else?

excatly. Liza, Caro, end of the list. All current senior ladies are pre-rotating jumps. It might be just one jump or many, one or another.

 

[TA91]

excatly. Liza, Caro, end of the list. All current senior ladies are pre-rotating jumps. It might be just one jump or many, one or another.

I mean everyone pre-rotates, but if we are talking about minimal than Alexia Paganini has pretty good technique. especially on her lutz.

 

[Alexz]

I mean everyone pre-rotates, but if we are talking about minimal than Alexia Paganini has pretty good technique. especially on her lutz.

No offense, but I'm pretty sure I can go through her skates and quickly find out she pre-rotates some other jump. Alexia is a lovely skater, IMO, but with a half an hour on YouTube one can easily spot some pre-rotation on one or many of her jumps too.

Boots used to be much stiffer 15+ years ago, and in a way that was preventing pre-rotation technique. We have better materials and lighter blades now. Nowadays skate boots are softer and give more ankle support, thus modem boots are safer for skaters. However, at the same time it is easier to pre-rotate and squiz in extra spin in the air now. IMHO.

 

[Yuzuruu]

It was cheated, same as the majority of the quad attempts are from the current ladies.

Anna Shcherbakova's quad lutz is "okay" at the moment (overly pre-rotated on the entrance, but landed fully backwards, so can't call it under even though it doesn't look the same as real Quad Lutzes) -- but will she be able to do it when her body grows? A similar question needs to be asked of Alexandra Trusova, who is already only borderline at best on her quad lutz and always cheated on the other quad types.

I agree, however, Annas "4Z" is extremely prerotated, she takes-off completely forward, and also off the wrong edge (flat at best). At least Sasha has an actual lutz. Neither look like a quad of course, just like a bit more rotated triple. TBH the only lady-quad I consider looking like a decent quad is Sasha's quad toe, which is big, and has decent rotations. Sure, she takes-off forward too, but imo it's not that big of a deal, most toe loops do, and it's the only quad vaguely comparable to men's quads. But again - it's only MY personal opinion based on years watching the sport both on screen and live.

That being said, not allowing ladies to do quads in SP is a tricky notion. We've seen what started to become of men's skating - a jumping competition where a skater like e.g. Nathan could simply out-jump everyone given the previous BV of quads. If Young and Rika could add quads to their repertoire, then I guess allowing them do it in SP wouldn't be such an issue, because at this point it would mean Sasha and Anna would out-jump everybody and the focus in ladies skating could be placed on jumping ability only, leaving all the other very important skills (spins, steps, artistry) behind.

Also, I would suggest to wait until an actual quad is landed in senior ladies competition

 

[Tolstoj]

Results

https://i.postimg.cc/jShq5ZbZ/Opera-Snapshot-2019-03-13-120727-www-strawpoll-me.png

You can still vote, if you haven't yet (click on the link and vote)

https://www.strawpoll.me/17589256

It's on Strawpoll because i don't think i can do it from here. (usually the option to make a poll is on thread tools but it is disabled in this forum)

Maybe we'd have more women training quads if the current ISU rules didn't disincentive them for women. "There aren't many women doing them" is such a silly justification for a rule that doesn't allow women to perform them for a good chunk of the competition. These things aren't unrelated.

Besides, not that many women were doing triple Axels when the rule changed to allow women to do more than just a double for the solo Axel requirement in the short program. And yet, it was still changed. So really, the argument doesn't hold water.

I say either ban it for both sexes in the senior SP (which they obviously won't do) or don't ban it at all. Not allowing women to do quads in the SP when men are is as antiquated an idea as not letting them wear pants. Considering how long it took to change that rule (and the triple Axel limitation) for women, I'm not holding my breath on the ISU making a speedy change.

Agreed it seems that ISU wants to limit evolution, maybe to let the sports lasting longer, or to not give too much advantage for those skaters who do have quads.

Though competition is only going to motivate more skaters to try these elements. I remember a recent interview (from TSL maybe?) where Kurt Browning said that Brian Boitano was the reason why he started working on quads.

For me i wouldn't ban anything, but the poll is more about predicting, so we'll have to see how many skaters will land quads over the next 2 years and if that pushes ISU to change the rule sooner than 2022 or the opposite case, no other skaters besides Eteri's will attempt quads in competition so no need for them to change.

 

[macy]

I would quite like to see quads allowed in Ladies’ SPs, but that the SP should be even more of a technical test for both men and women.

E.g. Allow just a single quad, and have a proscribed jump, just like in juniors. For example you never get Shoma Uno doing a Lutz or Mikhail Kolyada a flip. Such a test would force them to show that all round ability.

Similarly I wonder about the need for 3 spins in the SP, they’re almost always identical to the ones the skaters do in the LP, and why not have something like a 2nd sequence e.g. choreographic or even figures related – don’t know how the latter might actually work, but someone out there might have a good idea.

My ideal SP would look something like, for both men and women.

1 jump combo

1 proscribed jump (could be triple or quad though, it’s more the type. If the skater does a triple they could always do the quad in the combo, but they’d only be allowed one in the program).

1 axel jump

2 spins – 1 in single position, 1 combination, either single foot or change of foot, you could also cycle round 2 out of the 3 from one year to the next, though this shouldn’t really cause the skater any problems, they’d already have 3 planned for the LP. 1 spin to have flying entry, the other not.

1 step sequence

1 other sequence as above.

Time should be OK you’ve dropped a spin that often takes a long time these day, for a sequence that should take a similar amount of time.

What do people think?

BRING BACK THE SPIRAL SEQUENCE

 

[Elucidus]

Besides, not that many women were doing triple Axels when the rule changed to allow women to do more than just a double for the solo Axel requirement in the short program. And yet, it was still changed. So really, the argument doesn't hold water.

This. I mean, how many women there are who can jump quads for now? 2? Maybe 3? Ok. And how many women there are who can jump 3A for now? 2? Maybe 3? Ok.
So, where is logic in allowing one and forbidding other, I wonder?

 

[andromache]

The rules will be changed for the next Olympic quad, IMO. Unless we see the current set of quadsters experience major problems before then, in which case the ISU might decide not to encourage them. We'll see.