Women and the Quad | Page 29 | Golden Skate

Women and the Quad

Maybe the quad revolution was starting in juniors, but now it’s reached the senior ladies. I really think that the little girls trying quads have given some incentive to the older girls to try to push themselves further. And moreso, seeing Lilbet who formerly couldn’t even get into the top 10 at worlds rocket to 2nd because of a quad (and Eteri) gave some skaters who weren’t receiving especially good results a new plan. Two seasons ago, I couldn’t imagine a senior lady going for a quad because they were either all inconsistent or had small(ish) jumps, anybody who had even the potential for a quad (Osmond, Daleman, Tsurskaya) all had something pulling them back. The rise of Sasha Trusova was one of the best things (in my opinion) to happen to ladies FS. The difficulty had been stagnating for like thirty years, and ladies FS needed someone to pull them to the next level of difficulty, and that person was Alexandra Trusova. You can argue about her technique all you want, but without Sasha, you wouldn’t been getting quads from many of your other favorites. Her bravery and courage will be going down in history.
 
flanker said:
For a person who is "not following ladies that closely", what you are not omitting to mention everytime, you come with some note, observation or critique that matters to ladies pretty often (esp. when it comes to a very particular group of ladies and their coaches).
Click to expand...

I follow other coaches, in particular now Brian, because my favorite skater trains there. And since I do care about my favorite skater, I then learn all I can about his coach or his training mates.

So if I see a post in the “What’s New” that in my opinion is not accurate about what Brian said or did (and since I am a longtime feminist who worked in part enforcing anti discrimination laws based on gender, I will admit I am sensitive to that) I will chime in.

When I talk about coaches like Eteri, about whom I know next to nothing, I always say “if” or “based on so and so”. Because I don’t follow enough to actually know. I could not identify any of her skaters except Alina and perhaps Sasha Trusova. Maybe. On a good day when I had lots of coffee:laugh:
ETA: Morisi. I have liked Morisi’s skates. I could identify him.

Here’s who I can identify from the juniors: from the USA: Tomoki Hiwatashi, Camden Pulkinen, Andrew Torgashev, Dinh Tran, Maxim Naumov, Peter Liu, and many others whose names I am forgetting. From other countries, Adam SHF (name too long:biggrin:) Koshiro Shimada, many others. By sight. No problem. I love the junior men.

What does this have to do with ladies and quads. Very little. :)
Which is why I would never want to be seen as trying to stop those who do love ladies jumping quads from talking about them, and would just jump in on the peripherals.
 
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Amateur frame-by-frame calculations of Aleksandra Trusova's quads rotational speed:
https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/truquad/2445423.html

Average starting rotational speed (based on a time from take off till the middle of the first turn):
4Lz - 3.90 rps
4T - 3.62 rps

Average rotational speed (based on a time of 3 turns, from take off till the end of the third turn):
4Lz - 5.06 rps
4T - 4.93 rps

Average maximum rotational speed (based on a time of 2 turns, from the end of the first turn till the end of the third turn):
4Lz - 5.58 rps
4T - 5.42 rps

Videos of her quads, which were taken into account in the calculations:
4Lz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX9IB7GT49Y
4T
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkdi_LWzp9I
 
^^^ Mirai Nagasu has just posted an Instagram https://www.instagram.com/p/BxQYQpTh5bK/ in which she says she has done some tests and her rotational speed of 4.50 r.p.s. would be enough to do a quad - see Alexandra's figures which are higher than that.

Re Mirai, I calculate that at that rotational speed she would need to be in the air for 0.75 to 0.80 seconds taking account of allowable pre-rotational, plus some under-rotation, and it would equate to a jump height needed of 0.69m to 0.78m i.e. 2ft 3in to 2ft 6in, assuming my understanding of the physics is correct i.e. height = 0.5 * g (9.8) * ((time in the air/2) squared).
 
moriel said:
Waiting for ISU to allow quad in SP for ladies, time for a rulechange imho.
Click to expand...

After that maybe to stop separating men and ladies in singles competitions and make them competing together?
 
Hevari said:
After that maybe to stop separating men and ladies in singles competitions and make them competing together?
Click to expand...

I think ISU definitely should think about:
- allowing quads in SP for ladies
- changing the PC factor for ladies.

Those two things together would:
- allow quadsters to quad. Allow skaters from small feds who have no reputation to get high PCs to still score well.
- balance it out a bit. Imho, this would be needed after some delay - first allow quads in SP, then let it run for some years, pushing more ladies to learn quads, then change PC factoring for higher quality and better programs once quads become standard at top level.


While getting everybody to compete together sounds fun, i dont think that it is a good idea, because women have some natural disadvantages (such as wider hips and lower center of gravity), and it would be somewhat unfair.

Then, it could not necessarely be a general rule. At team competitions such as WTT, men and ladies could definitely compete against each other if ISU makes the scoring rules and required elements were similar enough. For instance, right now it is unfair: a man could train and skate the same SP the whole season, and a lady such as Lizzy or Sasha would need to train a whole new layout for such a competition. But if the layout was same, it could totally become a WTT thing.



OFF: Are you also Hevari everywhere else?
 
moriel said:
I think ISU definitely should think about:
- allowing quads in SP for ladies
- changing the PC factor for ladies.

Those two things together would:
- allow quadsters to quad. Allow skaters from small feds who have no reputation to get high PCs to still score well.
- balance it out a bit. Imho, this would be needed after some delay - first allow quads in SP, then let it run for some years, pushing more ladies to learn quads, then change PC factoring for higher quality and better programs once quads become standard at top level.


While getting everybody to compete together sounds fun, i dont think that it is a good idea, because women have some natural disadvantages (such as wider hips and lower center of gravity), and it would be somewhat unfair.

Then, it could not necessarely be a general rule. At team competitions such as WTT, men and ladies could definitely compete against each other if ISU makes the scoring rules and required elements were similar enough. For instance, right now it is unfair: a man could train and skate the same SP the whole season, and a lady such as Lizzy or Sasha would need to train a whole new layout for such a competition. But if the layout was same, it could totally become a WTT thing.
Click to expand...

I mean that for me that's not good that ladies skating is pushed to be man-like "who-jumps-most-quads-is-a-winner" event. By the way all quad-fans seem to have forgot that our sport is called "figure skating" and not "ice jumping" or sometnhing. For me ISU has to consider two ways of further developing of our sport:

First: to revise juging system to make it less jump-centric or jump-oriented. Like the one w now have in roller skating. I watched some roller events this year like Campeonato Sudamericano, Brazilian Nationals (Brazil is one of the world's tops in roller skating), German Cup right now. And I like their new judging system - it is much more fair to all skaters, not only to strong jumpers but also to spin kings an queens... So maybe ISU has to look carefuly to roller system...

Second: maybe to establish some kind of "extreme skating" competition for all those quadsters and "artistic skating" for all spinners, footworkers, spiralists and others who can't or don't want to jump quads but have other strenghts...

By the way - I want from ISU to re-establish spirals as a separate element in ladies singles much more than allowing quads in SP.


moriel said:
OFF: Are you also Hevari everywhere else?
Click to expand...

What do you mean under "everywhere else"? The Web is very big...
 
moriel said:
I think ISU definitely should think about:
- allowing quads in SP for ladies
- changing the PC factor for ladies.

Those two things together would:
- allow quadsters to quad. Allow skaters from small feds who have no reputation to get high PCs to still score well.
- balance it out a bit. Imho, this would be needed after some delay - first allow quads in SP, then let it run for some years, pushing more ladies to learn quads, then change PC factoring for higher quality and better programs once quads become standard at top level.
Click to expand...

There's no need for quads in the SP... at least not for a long time. Someone with a quad but no 3A is only at a slight disadvantage over someone with a 3A. Someone with two separate quads is at an advantage.

And whenever I hear someone talk about fiddling with PCS multiplier I just have to roll my eyes... it won't matter one bit whatsoever... the big philosophical problem with PCS is that there is not enough time, freedom, and spontaneity for most of the PCS factors.... so it ends up just serving as a kind of place marker. A better thing to do would be to add something like a solo ice dance to take up the part figures used to play... and then free up the free skate.

And if anything, the ISU needs to reverse their unisexification of ladies figure skating... by bringing back spirals.
 
I'm sure once Alysa Liu starts landing quads in international competitions and NBC start giving her the title the quad queen and other countries skater follow suit there wont be so much of an outcry over these Russian quad jumpers. Same thing happened in the men field a couple years back in 2015. But when America got its own quad king and other countries too the outcry died down a lot.
 
https://outdatedlink.org/figs/src/1557517965484-0.mp4
Alisa's Liu 4Lz+3T (with 270 degree prer and hand down on ice though..)
 
NaVi said:
There's no need for quads in the SP... at least not for a long time. Someone with a quad but no 3A is only at a slight disadvantage over someone with a 3A. Someone with two separate quads is at an advantage.
Click to expand...
Then... There's no need for 3A in the SP either. ;)
 
... No words. The height and distance on the first 4Lz is very impressive. Alysa will be 14 this year which is near the same age that Trusova landed her first ratified quad if memory serves me correct. Good luck to all these brave young ladies who are attempting to technically push the sport forward.
 
NaVi said:
And whenever I hear someone talk about fiddling with PCS multiplier I just have to roll my eyes... it won't matter one bit whatsoever... the big philosophical problem with PCS is that there is not enough time, freedom, and spontaneity for most of the PCS factors.... so it ends up just serving as a kind of place marker.
Click to expand...

It would make some small difference, even if judges are using the PCS purely as place markers.

E.g., suppose judges choose to score Skater A an average of 0.25 higher on each of the five program components than Skater B. If the component factor is 1.6 in a freeskate, that would translate to an advantage of 2.0 for Skater A. If the factor is 2.0, A's advantage would be only 2.5. So that's an extra half point for the skater whose strength is more on the components. Not a big difference, but not nothing.

A better thing to do would be to add something like a solo ice dance to take up the part figures used to play... and then free up the free skate.
Click to expand...

I could go for something like that.

I'd love to see a jump event and a skating skills+performance (PCS only) event in addition to a combined "well-balanced" event that gives skaters more freedom about how to fill the program -- with minimums and maximums for each kind of element but not the exact same number of each kind for every skater in the event.

And if anything, the ISU needs to reverse their unisexification of ladies figure skating... by bringing back spirals.
Click to expand...

I'd like to see leveled spirals as a technical element that might be required in the ladies' SP and that could be one of several options for both men and women in the freeskate. Let each individual choose to showcase their best skills in the freeskate along with some minimum of skills everyone expected to do some of (e.g., jumps and spins). Don't force skaters to conform to either/or gender expectations especially in the freeskate, but also recognize that as long as competition is divided by sex, there are some skills that most women can be expected to master but only a minority of men (e.g., laybacks/Biellmanns, fully extended spirals), and also vice versa (e.g., quads and triple axels).

So for those competitors who are among the minority able to do skills that are less common among their sex, at least let them benefit from those skills in the freeskate.

If there were to be gender-neutral competitions, I think the formats could be

Short program using 2010 and earlier ladies' SP rules:
*Double or triple axel
*Triple jump preceded by steps
*Triple-double or triple-triple combination
*Layback (can include Biellmann after 8 revs)
*Flying spin
*Combination spin
*Leveled step sequence
*Leveled spiral sequence

That would give 3 jump elements for which the average man would have an advantage over the average woman, but the above-average male jumpers wouldn't have the advantage of including quads, and the layback and spiral sequence would end up being risk moves or intentionally lower value moves for a lot of the less flexible men.

PCS-only program, where a good single axel can be worth as much as a quad if technical elements are only judged on quality of execution and how well they enhance the choreography

And of course school figures could also be competed equally by both sexes, if there were any demand for a figures competition.

But I think there is also value in sex-segregated freeskating events where jump difficulty does count significantly but is not necessarily the primary determinant of results.
 
I'm convinced that no jump programs are
(1) boring
(2) while (1) is a personal, this one is objective: without jumps, judges will switch to queue and reputation scoring, as it happens in ice dance. It is already horrible, and would be even worse if there are more disciplines involved.

Jumps are literally the only thing that is judges *somewhat* objectively
 
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