Ice Dance

[La Rhumba]

They certainly appeared a bit flat, but they were terribly deflated after the 2.00 ded and dropping out of the top 10. I can appreciate now how DelSchoes sometimes have made little errors in the past after not being rewarded for a good skate and finding themselves in a lower position than hoped for. The one comp where they skated brilliantly from CD to FD with no apparant nerves and lead from the front was in Warsaw.

ETA: No couple was more "off" than Faiella-Scali from CD to FD they were error strewn and lacking in any of their usual pizazz.

Plus - what about G&P's "illegal element" in the OD, namely Melissa's knee sliding, and being dragged around by Denis on her knees that is supposedly not allowed in the OD if you read the rules yet went totally unpenalised?

Yet another example of inconsistent officiating at the same event from couple to couple.

 

[boggartlaura]

Belbin's faulty twizzles in the FD were ignored, and given a +1 GOE by some Judges - astonishingly!

Dostatni marked this element properly. It received a level 3 instead of a level 4. It meets all the requirements for level 3 so marking it as anything else would have been wrong. And it's not his fault that the judges gave it a +1.

But I am puzzled about the Kerr's deduction.

 

[gio]

As for Worlds, if you think that because DomShabs did not win a medal there was no politicking going on, you are seriously mistaken, and need to read around a bit before declaring the event "fairly judged".

People think that Russia is always involved in politiking in FS and other countries aren't. It has become a stereotype in FS.

I think it will be better for FS fans to forget from which country skaters come from and just enjoy their skating.
Fortunately my fav skaters aren't based on nationality. I have my fav Russians, Americans, Japanese ...

 

[chuckm]

The fact that the ISU appointed 2 US Citizens as the TS Team was totally unfair to the other competitiors.

Was it fair to the Cup of China competitors to have three Russian judges on the Ice Dance panel--one from RUS, one a Russian judge loaned to UZB and the third a Russian loaned to ARM? And guess who won CoC? Domnina/Shabalin, of course.

Was it fair to the Cup of Russia competitors to have three Russian judges on the Ice Dance panel--one from RUS, one a Russian judge loaned to UZB and one a Russian judge loanded to AZE? Belbin/Agosto did win CoR, but only because DomShabs fell in the OD and DelShoes had a mistake in the FD that buried them in third place. But DomShabs did win the silver medal.

Was it fair to the Euros competitors to have two Russian judges on the Ice Dance panel? One was from Russia, and the other a Russian loaned to AZE. And of course Yuri Balkov, that Russia-loving toe-tapper was the hole card.

I would say that having 3 judges in one's pocket is far more of an advantage than two US citizens on the tech panel. The techs set levels, but it's the GOE and the PCS that determines the winners. A level3 move with +2 and +3 GOE can reap a higher score than a level4 move with 0 GOE.

 

[Tinymavy15]

agree about Gregory & Pethukov's freedance costumes. I loved the old ones, they aere romantic, she looked beautiful, really fit the theme of adam and eve. perfect. THe white things look like they are snowmen in april or somthing. Really bad. I think that the program just didn't look the same.

 

[La Rhumba]

chuck, as someone who constantly quotes statistics about how corrupt Russian and Russian *bloc* officials are, as you don't believe that any Judge from a neighbouring country could possibly mark fairly, I suppose it was too much to hope that you would admit that there was anything remotely wrong with the officiating at this Worlds. As a previous poster said, as long as the US skaters benefit, who cares huh?

I also think it's terribly sad that DomShabs are constantly denigrated as if they had no talent whatsoever on these forums. Meanwhile a couple who have talent, but are certainly not world beaters, are showered with medals every year - but that's okay, cos they're American?

I had thought alot of your complaining was due to dissatisfaction with the fairness of officiating overall, but now I see it was merely Russia bashing. How sad.

 

[gio]

Was it fair to the Cup of China competitors to have three Russian judges on the Ice Dance panel--one from RUS, one a Russian judge loaned to UZB and the third a Russian loaned to ARM? And guess who won CoC? Domnina/Shabalin, of course.

Was it fair to the Cup of Russia competitors to have three Russian judges on the Ice Dance panel--one from RUS, one a Russian judge loaned to UZB and one a Russian judge loanded to AZE? Belbin/Agosto did win CoR, but only because DomShabs fell in the OD and DelShoes had a mistake in the FD that buried them in third place. But DomShabs did win the silver medal.

Was it fair to the Euros competitors to have two Russian judges on the Ice Dance panel? One was from Russia, and the other a Russian loaned to AZE. And of course Yuri Balkov, that Russia-loving toe-tapper was the hole card.

I would say that having 3 judges in one's pocket is far more of an advantage than two US citizens on the tech panel. The techs set levels, but it's the GOE and the PCS that determines the winners. A level3 move with +2 and +3 GOE can reap a higher score than a level4 move with 0 GOE.

Russia is always involved and the other countries aren't..... It has become a dogma.

 

[gio]

I also think it's terribly sad that DomShabs are constantly denigrated as if they had no talent whatsoever on these forums.

Exactly! It is really bad, how Domnina and Shabalin are continuosly denigrated in this forum. And other Russian skaters too. Russian skaters are the most bashed here. Just because they are Russian.

 

[zandor]

La Rhumba,

:agree: ITA

 

[chuckm]

It isn't DomShabs fault at all that the judging panels were let us say "arranged". What I said had nothing whatever to do with their skating. There's no doubt that they are a good team, and very talented.

But it is also a fact that all their 1st and 2nd placements this year were at events where the judging panels were well-stocked with Russian judges. When they skated before an evenly distributed panel, such as the GPF and Worlds, they didn't place as high.

Even big DomShabs fans have said on other boards that their FD at Worlds was disappointing. They had skated well all season better than they did at Worlds.

 

[dancindiva03]

As much as Gregory & Petukhov improved this season (much better line and posture, greater speed, more difficult technique, a better relationship between the two, better edging and flow, better choreography...just everything was improved with the help of their new coaches)...as much as they improved, Gregory & Pethukov's unwise choice of costumes at Worlds probably resulted in a costume deduction that dropped them a place in the standings.

All season long they competed in beautiful costumes (the burgundy ones designed by Johnny Weir) that really accentuated and highlighted their improved line and posture, costumes that helped tell the story of their free-dance and then they show up at Worlds in horrible white leotards that hide their line and wash them out to the point that you could not even see their free-dance (against the backdrop of the white ice).

What were they thinking? If I were a judge, I would have dropped them a place too.

I'm definitely not a fan of their new blue costumes, but how the h*** do you figure they resulted in a deduction? There was nothing about those costumes that would have caused a deduction. No, they didn't do anything to highlight their improvements, but to say they were the cause of G&P dropping in the standings is just ridiculous. It was the screwy juding that dropped them, IMHO, and this sudden push to hold up the new teams.

Plus - what about G&P's "illegal element" in the OD, namely Melissa's knee sliding, and being dragged around by Denis on her knees that is supposedly not allowed in the OD if you read the rules yet went totally unpenalised?

Yet another example of inconsistent officiating at the same event from couple to couple.

G&P have been doing that element all year long. Don't you think that it being "illegal" would have been brought up at some point if it really was illegal? I mean, they competed in five major competitions this year (SA, TEB, GPF, US Nats and Worlds), and yet you are the only one to even mention that it should not be allowed. Must not be such an illegal element after all.

 

[SeaniBu]

...and yet you are the only one to even mention that it should not be allowed. Must not be such an illegal element after all.

I don't really think the move is all that consistent with the other rules. I would agree with it being made illegal, but don't mind it be legal either.

 

[Tonichelle]

Melissa and Denis are really good about getting CoP 'experts' in to view their programs before the season starts... any illegal or even questionable elements are looked at...

so I don't think they'd keep something in and take their chances...

I preferred Melissa and Denis's costumes to Mother natures son, sorry Johnny, I liked these better. Liked the others too, but better liking for these.
.

not sure I understand it... mother nature's son????

they were portraying Adam and Eve, mother nature doesn't play a part in teh Biblical story... *shrugs* the first costumes worked better in fitting with their theme IMHO...

 

[JonnyCoop]

...but this sport is ice "Dance." It's supposed to be a couple dancing and relating to each other on the ice...not looking away from each other and being so aloof (towards one another) that they might as well be alone out there.

It's not about romance, it's about "dancing." The couple need to aknowledge each other, acknowlede the existence of the partner, recognize each other on the ice, and interact. Delobel acts as if Schoenfelder does not exist. Schoenfelder acts as if he's alone on the ice and merely dancing with a prop. That's not dance. I don't know what that is, but it is not social dancing (where you have to have a couple interacting).

Delobel and Schoenfelder may be fabulous as individual skaters (in terms of skating technique) but you could substitue either for a broomstick and neither would notice the difference.

At the risk of sounding like Bill Clinton, I think it depends on what your definition of "Dance" is.... some forms of modern dance are less about interaction and more about representation of various concepts. It is not surprising to me that the French, with their penchant for leaning toward the unusual and avant-garde in choreography, would tend to go in this direction.

 

[JonnyCoop]

I missed Melissa and Denis's costumes as well... but I didn't know you could drop a place because of costumes

costumes do not show athletic anything and as such should not be a required element when handing out points (I'm nto saying skate naked, I'm just saying it should not effect the score in that way)

I agree with this up to a point. However -- I wonder if Denkova & Staviysky losing the 04 Worlds to N/K might have in part been due to costuming. Maxim's shirt kept flapping up into his face (several times) and IMHO it really detracted from the overall look of the dance. I recall it being a pretty even matchup in the Free Dance between D/S and N/K that year, and I have to wonder if that flapping shirt made a difference. This is the only instance I can remember where if I had been a judge, I would have actually deducted for a costume; there's a difference between a costume that's merely ugly and one that is distracting (for reasons other than ugliness) and potentially dangerous.

 

[SeaniBu]

not sure I understand it... mother nature's son????

they were portraying Adam and Eve, mother nature doesn't play a part in teh Biblical story... *shrugs* the first costumes worked better in fitting with their theme IMHO...

Yah, sorry. I know it is a favorite pair of yours and many - mine too. The old costumes that Johnny did for them I think of in that way. Sorry, knowing that Eve and Adam were not clothed I understand it is difficult unless they come out in fig leaves - I bett some readers just thought "wouldn't mind" - but the first impression I had of them was Mother Nature and her son. I heard the comments on the intention and don't disagree, just having some fun and I do like these new ones better.
As far as fitting the story, well that is still interpretation. Denk n Stav should have had him in black to portray the "evil one." but I still got the gist. M/D's new ones I think they just look flat out better fitting the story or not (which I still think they do somewhat).


eta, some guys shirts that I wouldn't change except take some scissors to the "lapels." Ben's in particular from this words, was the only aspect I thought was not "in place" with their costumes. Puffy arms and all that I find fine and fitting of the interpretation, looks good in this forum - but the ridiculously long "collars" around the guys is still a "bugger" for me. I quickly get over it as I am usually watching skates and the ladies anyway.

 

[La Rhumba]

G&P have been doing that element all year long. Don't you think that it being "illegal" would have been brought up at some point if it really was illegal?

I might be the only person you have heard say this, but it was mentioned very clearly by both the British Eurosport commentator [Chris Howarth] and in the OD rulebook, after we had a look to check exactly what the Kerr's 2.00 point ded was for? It's written there in black and white, though I have always thought anyway that the OD should consist of steps and the required elements only, not knee sliding. That G&P haven't been penalised for it all season long just tells you what an inconsistent and confusing picture the whole thing with the rules actually is!

Here is Shanti's post with the OD rules: http://absoluteskating.proboards37....=display&thread=1165416557&page=22#1174819202
3. Illegal Elements/Movements
• Kneeling on two knees or performing the splits on the ice;
• Lying on the ice.

However, Sinead Kerr during part of a step sequence, whilst in hold, hops, and it's interpreted by the TS to be this illegal element
• Jumps of more than half (½) a revolution;
and they're deducted 2.00 points.

Who knows what the dickens is going on when there is inconsistency like this?

I mean, they competed in five major competitions this year (SA, TEB, GPF, US Nats and Worlds), and yet you are the only one to even mention that it should not be allowed. Must not be such an illegal element after all.

The Kerr's competed at 5 different events themselves [Oberstdorf, SA, CoR, British, Euros] with no deductions for an "illegal move", so what does that prove? It's all as clear as mud as far as I'm concerned!

 

[SeaniBu]

3. Illegal Elements/Movements
• Kneeling on two knees or performing the splits on the ice;
• Lying on the ice.

See I thought most of us knew this, and I am not sure how it is legal for M and D??? It might be, and I don't think it should "suddenly" be ratified, but her spinning off on BOTH knees and not having one skate "skating" etc... - which I think most are aware this is done - is not consistent with the rules. That is all. Sorry if it sounds like I am being a frump. There might be som Loop hole, who knows, but it did and does look like a move that is illegal via reading the rules.

 

[chuckm]

Oksana Domnina does a split on the ice at the end of the Polovtsian Dance FD and has never received a deduction for it.

 

[SeaniBu]

Oksana Domnina does a split on the ice at the end of the Polovtsian Dance FD and has never received a deduction for it.

I wonder if it being the end pose is the "allowing" factor there??? I wondered the same and that is what I thought - the routine is over at that point. *shrugs*
There was a discussion about that pertaining to Sasha a while back.
But don't understand M n D's allowing factor as of yet. I am sure there is a reason this is legal, just don't see what it is though - yet . I would be happy to know but I don't think it matters that much because it is being allowed anyway. Just no obvious reason like say Oksana's splits to finnish.