Kwan and Slutskaya each without Olympic Gold, does it seem picture is wrong?

[kittycat26]

I am not saying that favorites always win in other disciplines; otherwise, Shen & Zhao would have surely had an OGM by now. However, it is rather unusual in other disciplines for a skater who dominated the whole discipline as much as Kwan or Slutskaya did to not have an OGM.

Shen/Zhou were not the favorite to win either Olympic Gold. In 2002 Sale/Pelletier and Berezhnaya/Sikhardlidze were the heavy gold medal favorites. In 2006 they were remember coming off a major injury and had made a miraceleous recovery to even be ready in time to compete. Under the circumstances they were heavy underdogs to both Totmianina/Marinin and Zhang/Zhang at the very least, and possibly even to Petrova/Tikhonov, Pang/Tong, Savchenko/Szokoly in the eyes of some. Their bronze was a great achievement for them at that point in time.

You are right though it is extremely unusual for two women who have defined their event for as long as Kwan and Slutskaya for neither to have an Olympic Gold medal to show it.

 

[attyfan]

I have read on other boards several posters that say MK is not a legend because she doesn't have an OGM; fewer posters say the same about IS. I have yet to read on any board the idea that men (esp. Kurt) or pairs (S/Z) are not legends because they don't have an OGM. IMO, this is another example of skating's "double standard" for ladies skaters as opposed to everyone else. (After all, can anyone recall a newspaper column criticizing Todd for taking a bye to the '92 Olys -- or the USFS for giving it too him? Yet, several columnists made a "crusade" against MK's bye.)

 

[R.D.]

well, they could care less about skating outside of women's.

The picture is not wrong at all. I don't think it gets much simpler than two of the skaters who defined the (late) 90s and early 00's just simply had off-nights the two times they went to the Olympics, and someone else outskated them. However, it does remain that the Olympic champions have all won at least one world medal (in recent history, anyway). It must have hurt more the second time around, though, as both skaters got 2nd place the first time (MK in 98, IS in 02), and then slipped to third the second time (MK in 02, IS in 06). seems to be a recent trend in ladies that the silver medalist returns not to step up to gold, but to slip to bronze...

In their fans' eyes, they will always be "the greatest ever". In general, the numbers speak for themselves, and they'll just be added to that list of "great figure skaters who have never achieved an OGM".

 

[R.D.]

I also think there is a tendency to think of the OGM as some kind of "lifetime achievement award". No, it's just another skating comp held during the Olympic festival and whoever wins that gets the big prize. But Tara, Oksana and Shiz are a pretty elite group themselves, I'd think. I think they fit in relatively well with the other Olympic champs. (Sarah, not so much...sorry Hughes fans, that was just a lucky night,)

 

[Dee4707]

I think they fit in relatively well with the other Olympic champs. (Sarah, not so much...sorry Hughes fans, that was just a lucky night,)

Sarah's skate wasn't just luck. Sarah was a competitor and a fierce one to boot. Sarah trained well and was in top form at the 02 Olympics. I don't think landing as many triples as she did was just luck. She is as much a champ as anyone else.

I have always thought of the gold medal as the end all be all, the topping on cake, the best until this last olympics. The skate that ruined those thoughts for me was Plushenko. If that was a gold medal performance then who wants it?? I think Michelle and Irina have lots to be proud of over their careers.

Dee

 

[R.D.]

The skate that ruined those thoughts for me was Plushenko. If that was a gold medal performance then who wants it??

I didn't see Plushenko's performance but if you compare Arakawa's OGM-winning performance to either Sarah's or Tara's it was pretty underwhelming. Safe, conservative, just enough to get the job done. Just barely squeaked by. (that said, it was still a pretty good performance overall.) In terms of mind-blowing performances this Olympics was, overall, somewhat of a let-down.

 

[gio]

Sarah's skate wasn't just luck. Sarah was a competitor and a fierce one to boot. Sarah trained well and was in top form at the 02 Olympics. I don't think landing as many triples as she did was just luck. She is as much a champ as anyone else.

Dee

In a way it was luck, because without the fall, Michelle would have won. Michelle even without the triple/triple but with a clean program would have won.
With this I don't want to diminish Sarah, but IMO Michelle was superior even with the fall and the double footed jump. Superior in overall skating. But we know that jumps were the most important thing in that era (not that now aren't, but we have some more focus on spirals and spins)
The fact is = Sarah had the performace of her life (best LP) with some help from Michelle and Ira.
Wit COP Sarah would have got some jumps downgraded (combos) and with negative GOE (lutz), I think. But that is another story. Comparing COP programs with 6.0 programs is comparing apples with oranges.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

This sort of talk goes on and on and on about the only way to be considered great is to have a gold olympic medal. Nonsense!!!

Having an olympic medal is a personal achievement and signifies just how well one skated that night/afternoon. Nothing more; nothing less.

Some skaters can't even win a Worlds but they are good skaters.

Joe

 

[nubka]

Wit COP Sarah would have got some jumps downgraded (combos) and with negative GOE (lutz), I think. But that is another story. Comparing COP programs with 6.0 programs is comparing apples with oranges.

True. With COP, who knows how Kwan's empty, transitionless program would have fared as well?

 

[gio]

True. With COP, who knows how Kwan's empty, transitionless program would have fared as well?

And Sarah so so interpretation as well!

BEWARE THE WRATH OF THE KWAN!!!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

True. With COP, who knows how Kwan's empty, transitionless program would have fared as well?

and Sarah's underrrotated jumps? Irina's bobbles? and Sasha's splat? Yes, what would CoP bring?

Joe

 

[Dee4707]

In a way it was luck, because without the fall, Michelle would have won. Michelle even without the triple/triple but with a clean program would have won.

Gio, I understand what you're saying but I don't think it was all just luck is what I'm saying. Sarah did an outstanding job, and yes if Michelle or Irina skated cleanly Sarah probably wouldn't have gotten the gold. I think for someone to say that Sarah wasn't in with the rest of the champs is just not right.

Dee

 

[R.D.]

True. With COP, who knows how Kwan's empty, transitionless program would have fared as well?

oh come on. That was a totally different era. don't even give me these "what-if" scenarios any more. If Cop was in place back then, THE SKATERS WOULD HAVE COME PREPARED FOR IT. (Then the outcome might have been different, blah blah.)

Same if this Olympics was judged under 6.0. (maybe there wouldn't have been so many falls, especially in dance?!)

 

[iloveaxel]

this

this sort of debate has been recycled over and over during off-seasons.

Who cares about OGM these days? I honestly don't know many OG medalists' names, especially those Russian ice dancers and pairs.

 

[R.D.]

I think for someone to say that Sarah wasn't in with the rest of the champs is just not right.

Yeah, that someone is me. Come on, just say my name.

I didn't mean it to sound quite like that. Certainly her OGM win PUTS her among those champions mentioned simply due to the accomplishment and the hardware. But in terms of accomplishments outside the olympics what has she to show for it? a world medal? not even a nat or world title? And her body of work in skating, what has she to show for that? A single year in SOI where there she was criticized every step of the way? don't get me wrong, she's an olympic champ like the others but imo that's all she has in common with them. There's nothing about her that stands out to me. You can say Kristi, Oksana, Katarina, Tara, even Shizuka and I go yeah, I know. But mention Sarah and I'm like, so what?

(and I'll also mention here in the states that I doubt anyone remembers Sarah any more outside of skating fans and maybe New Yorkers. But I'm sure they know Tara, or Kwan). I don't think anyone here outside of skating fans remembers who won this year's OGM either. They just know it was some "Japanese girl" or "Chinese girl".

 

[blue dog]

oh come on. That was a totally different era. don't even give me these "what-if" scenarios any more. If Cop was in place back then, THE SKATERS WOULD HAVE COME PREPARED FOR IT. (Then the outcome might have been different, blah blah.)

Same if this Olympics was judged under 6.0. (maybe there wouldn't have been so many falls, especially in dance?!)

I agree, Red Dog. Honestly, though, in the beginning, I thought that the COP was geared to get Michelle the gold finally--less emphasis on jumps, more on choreography, footwork, spirals, and spinning--

Of course, that was until they started Biellmanizing everything, and the youngin's came onto the scene.

I agree with what you said--they would have come prepared for the COP had the COP been instituted in the 90's.

 

[SeaniBu]

Who cares about OGM these days?

I have to agree, it is more about the SOW than one moment in time - or 2 months out of 8 years.

Not sure why, but it reminds me of seeing Van Halen back in 86 (date blurry ) as the head liner, but who stole the show? Loverboy. Can't believe it. But if that was a contest, Loverboy won hands down - second went to BTO. I mean, why not the "gold medal contender" Van Halen. ....any given day, but VH has a better SOW. They are the "better" band - more hits, more fans, more "money"..... John Elway may have never received his much deserved ring (he did but for arguments sake) still one of the best Quarterback that ever lived --- oh, why don't we use Dan Marino as example. Never made that "big one" yet undisputedly one of the best ever.

Says a lot for a competitor to come out and upset the favored, but that does not take away from the great accomplishments the are the true definition of "great." If we only judge greatness by completing one goal, then ...... Maybe that makes no sense to anyone but me.... So what one does with their life is a maker of greatness, not a variable SINGLE moment on ice.

Look a Patrick Roy's last year as goalie, not his best, but everything he did do..... Yah there are Blake's too.
JMO

 

[R.D.]

Honestly, though, in the beginning, I thought that the COP was geared to get Michelle the gold finally--less emphasis on jumps, more on choreography, footwork, spirals, and spinning--

I think it's shaping to become basically the same thing (as before); just that now, everything is quantized. The skaters seem to prefer the new system, but there seems to be less room for the "interpretive" part, so, in effect you can still "jump your way" to a championship. In terms of the "sport" argument one can say this is the way it should be.

Everyone thought the artistry would go away...I see a few out there with some potential. I think it's becoming more of a "style" thing. whether that will aid them in the long run remains to be seen. Didn't seem to hurt Kim or Asada though in raking in the big points

 

[saltypig]

In sports and competitions every athlete knows that on any given day - the underdog can triumph over the favourite. Just like Buster Douglas knocked out Mike Tyson. That's what's great about sports nothing is guaranteed.

 

[R.D.]

that's one of the most thrilling things about sports. It's not fun if the same person or team keeps winning time and time again. :yes: