2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Tavi...]

Yet nobody in sane mind is trying to lecture Lewis Hamilton how to drive a car, or lecture Magnus Carlsen how to play chess. I wonder why?

First, how is that relevant? Second, can you substantiate it - can you identify every sane person in the world and can you list all the lectures they’ve ever received?

You don’t need to answer.

We’re all entitled to our opinions, and frankly I don’t really care whether you agree or disagree with TSL’s or mine. But I don’t think it’s right for you to resort to name calling or to imply that someone doesn’t know enough to criticize, simply because you disagree with them. You might think your own opinions are the “right” ones, but don’t confuse them with fact. Because they’re not.

 

[Orlov]

From what little I have seen of Daniil’s choreography, I’m left cold. That’s my opinion. Someone else may have another opinion. If only other choreographers were allowed to express opinions, we’d probably have no one on this Board opining

You are absolutely right, thanks. People are different and they like different things. But it seems to me that need to respectfully express your indifferent attitude, like you did it now. Too much disrespectful criticism in figure skating. Very often, instead of the respectful “this is not my cup of tea, thank you” people start writing large, stinging texts. In the eyes of intelligent people, this looks strange - the incompatibility of the position of such a “critic” and the position of the choreographer is too obvious. As far as I know in America they say "if you are so smart, then where is your money?" Like this

The sad truth is that very often such disrespectful criticism is caused by extraneous reasons (nationalistic, fanatical for his "favorite" and so on). Another sad truth is that in the current super-connected information world, such "socialnet-crowds" can exert extreme emotional pressure on athletes, coaches, choreographers. For Alina and Zhenya, for example, last season was a real emotional hell because of such social pressure of fans, media, internet comments. But with the trainers and choreographers, everything is the same - they are people too. Summarizing: in the modern world, respectful attitude, respectful expression of one’s opinion is especially important.

 

[neud]

First, how is that relevant? Second, can you substantiate it - can you identify every sane person in the world and can you list all the lectures they’ve ever received?

You don’t need to answer.

We’re all entitled to our opinions, and frankly I don’t really care whether you agree or disagree with TSL’s or mine. But I don’t think it’s right for you to resort to name calling or to imply that someone doesn’t know enough to criticize, simply because you disagree with them. You might think your own opinions are the “right” ones, but don’t confuse them with fact. Because they’re not.

Neither are yours.
I would like people to keep in mind that most of them are not professionals in figure skating and some of their "opinions" or "critique" about professional's work might look utterly ridiculous from the professional's point of view.

 

[Vandevska]

You are absolutely right, thanks. People are different and they like different things. But it seems to me that need to respectfully express your indifferent attitude, like you did it now. Too much disrespectful criticism in figure skating. Very often, instead of the respectful “this is not my cup of tea, thank you” people start writing large, stinging texts. In the eyes of intelligent people, this looks strange - the incompatibility of the position of such a “critic” and the position of the choreographer is too obvious. As far as I know in America they say "if you are so smart, then where is your money?" Like this

The sad truth is that very often such disrespectful criticism is caused by extraneous reasons (nationalistic, fanatical for his "favorite" and so on). Another sad truth is that in the current super-connected information world, such "socialnet-crowds" can exert extreme emotional pressure on athletes, coaches, choreographers. For Alina and Zhenya, for example, last season was a real emotional hell because of such social pressure of fans, media, internet comments. But with the trainers and choreographers, everything is the same - they are people too. Summarizing: in the modern world, respectful attitude, respectful expression of one’s opinion is especially important.

Very nice post [emoji106] [emoji122]

 

[Tavi...]

Neither are yours.
I would like people to keep in mind that most of them are not professionals in figure skating and some of their "opinions" or "critique" about professional's work might look utterly ridiculous from the professional's point of view.

I’ve never said my opinions are fact, though. I simply said I don’t think it’s right (which is my personal opinion) for you to criticize people in a personal way (by name calling or saying they’re ignorant) just because you disagree with them.

And while I appreciate that you would only like to hear a professional critique choreography, for example, if that were the case, most people on this board wouldn’t be able to say a word. Is that what you want?

 

[TallyT]

Yet nobody in sane mind is trying to lecture Lewis Hamilton how to drive a car, or lecture Magnus Carlsen how to play chess. I wonder why?

Errr... let me guess, you never watched Top Gear.

 

[Scott512]

Rodina running her mouth again: https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1077034930.html spouting the usual vitriol against Zagitova, Khrustalniy etc, all the while plugging her Figurka ... FFKKR still accredits this serpent?

Kostomarov on the other hand, diplomatic while a little critical about the current state of Russias FS: https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1077048162.html

Rodina was a disaster again while Kostomarov was pretty good. The things Rodina said about a legend in Yulia was ridiculous. I'm glad Alina does not do a lot of interviews at this point. Thankfully Alina stays well away from Rodina who in my opinion is very unfair to Alina.

I don't know why some of these Russian figure skaters including the brilliant Kostornaia like Rodina and follow her on Instagram or whatever it is. Would these kids who like Rodina like her to talk about them that way? No.

I also read that piece Rodina did with Nastya. Very unfortunate. The comment section was not generous to Nastya as expected. Anastasia should have never spoken with her. Skaters need to stay away from Elena Rodina. Nothing good is going to happen by speaking with her. That much we know.

 

[neud]

Errr... let me guess, you never watched Top Gear.

I said "in sane mind"

 

[TallyT]

Too much disrespectful criticism in figure skating. Very often, instead of the respectful “this is not my cup of tea, thank you” people start writing large, stinging texts. In the eyes of intelligent people, this looks strange - the incompatibility of the position of such a “critic” and the position of the choreographer is too obvious. As far as I know in America they say "if you are so smart, then where is your money?" Like this

Fans of every and any sport can and do slam their players, even their idols, all the time (in fact figure skaters, even the Russian ladies, don't get it nearly as bad as in a lot of other sports). Fans of film/TV are not deterred by 'lack of expertise' from writing vast and vitriolic screeds (witness the recent Game of Thrones finale and the internet bloodbath that followed). Book lovers are not stopped from waxing amazingly - and acidly - eloquent when they are disappointed. And I myself have said very impolite things about restaurant meals despite being renowned for lack of cooking skills.

You put something out to the public, the court of public opinion get to say what they think. "Where is your money?" can be easily answered by "paying for tickets etc so that you can make a living, so make it worth my money's while!!!"

 

[katymay]

Choreography is the artistic component (or should be) of skating.

If I don’t like a Martin Scorsese movie, and I say so, I’m not saying I’m a director. I’m saying I don’t like the movie. An opinion I am perfectly qualified to express. And if the movie wins 20 Oscars, well, yippee, but it won’t change my mind about the movie.

From what little I have seen of Daniil’s choreography, I’m left cold. That’s my opinion. Someone else may have another opinion. If only other choreographers were allowed to express opinions, we’d probably have no one on this Board opining

I’m going to see if maybe Rohene Ward will join and share. Wish me luck

Here is the problem: Most choreography today is a set up for an element, usually a jump. (Or often a jump). It is a difficult task. I don't think he always succeeds, I didn't really enjoy either Alina program last year. But Alina's Olympic programs-I loved them both. Some of his programs are wonderful, some not so much, but the demands of the tech score dictate much of the choreography these days. In the olden days a skater and choreographer enjoyed great flexibility. It would be nice if a skater didn't have to focus and concentrate on a 3-3 or quad coming up around the corner, but that isn't the case. It is pretty difficult to relax and feel the music when you are worried about an edge, jump technique etc.

 

[vesperalvioletta]

I had a dream about Alina's supposed 4Lz last night. I take that rumor with a big grain of salt, but if it is true, I hope it's as wonderful as I imagined it to be [emoji28]

 

[Tavi...]

You are deliberately or not missing the point here. The comments posted here, criticism or praise, stay here. We are not making money out of it. We are not advacing a personal agenda. Those guys aim to form a public for themselves so can they profit. Your comment here doesn't have the impact their hatefull comments have. You don't have an audience, they have. I don't know about you, but I want to hear valid criticism from people with experience, reputation in a certain field. I' m tired of imposters

I’m actually not missing the point - I just disagree. This may be a cultural difference. First, in the US, you don’t have to be an “authority” in order to express your opinion on something. Anyone can express an opinion on anything.

Second, I think you might have some mistaken ideas about TSL. Dave has a full time job in a field completely unrelated to skating. Jonathan is a professional musician. If they make money from TSL I doubt it’s much. They are both knowledgeable skating fans with strong opinions. In other words, they’re not too different from most people on this board, except they talk about their opinions on TSL and use their real names instead of screen names.

And third, I disagree that things posted here don’t have the same impact as things said on TSL. Skaters and their families are aware of what’s said about them on figure skating message boards. They read YouTube comments and responses to their tweets and Instagram posts and see their @mentions on social media. If a skater hears that something “hateful” was said about them or their skating, it will hurt them no matter where the comment was made. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that just because comments on message boards are anonymous, they are invisible and have no impact.

 

[nussnacker]

Second, I think you might have some mistaken ideas about TSL. Dave has a full time job in a field completely unrelated to skating. Jonathan is a professional musician. If they make money from TSL I doubt it’s much. They are both knowledgeable skating fans with strong opinions. In other words, they’re not too different from most people on this board, except they talk about their opinions on TSL and use their real names instead of screen names.

And third, I disagree that things posted here don’t have the same impact as things said on TSL. Skaters and their families are aware of what’s said about them on figure skating message boards. They read YouTube comments and responses to their tweets and Instagram posts and see their @mentions on social media. If a skater hears that something “hateful” was said about them or their skating, it will hurt them no matter where the comment was made. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that just because comments on message boards are anonymous, they are invisible and have no impact.

Oh, well. Ms. Rodina is also doing her bits 'just out of her passion for figure skating' as she claims, yet JUST like TSL, she has patreon type of income from her 'hobby', and sure tries to further that income to be bigger by gaining more audience.
And yes, Dave has an agenda, he has some closer ties to some specific camps (which he doesn't even hide) that feed him rumors and insider info, and he will never allow himself to be downright hateful towards those camps in fear of losing the valuable source of information, and if we're being real it leads to him being kinder to those camps and slamming others.
the last one is true, it doesn't matter where skater sees those insults, it will hurt anyways.
Seeing it on social media, that you use constantly, where your name is tagged has a higher likelihood though.

 

[Amei]

Rodina running her mouth again: https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1077034930.html spouting the usual vitriol against Zagitova, Khrustalniy etc, all the while plugging her Figurka ... FFKKR still accredits this serpent?

I read that article (via google translate, the quote is below), it's more nasty towards Lipnitskaia, calling her lazy for walking away from being a star. The only 'vitriol' about Zagitova is the crack that she makes about 'modest Alina' being something made up by fans as Alina enjoys being in the spotlight, but that she doesn't give interviews, so that's slightly negative, but said it was understood but one must be careful. Am I a big fan of Rodina based on most of her stuff, no, but this article wasn't bashing Zagitova. Considering the first part of the article was criticizing skaters, specifically 1 skater, for not capitalizing on their success, it was quite complimentary to Zagitova for capitalizing on her success on the ice.

A modest little Alinochka is an image that her fans came up with for themselves. Alina herself recently in an interview admitted that she likes to go to photo shoots, to be in the spotlight. This is her element. The only thing she rarely gives interviews. But it can be understood. Journalism is now at such a level that all words are misinterpreted and one must be careful

 

[prorussian fan]

About Eteri Tutberidze... Interesting! https://medium.com/@fstranslations/...t-sport-should-be-like-in-russia-bac86fc4cad9

 

[ancientpeas]

Back to Russian ladies please!

No shortage of things to discuss I'm sure.

 

[neud]

Shabotova will participate in Ukrainian Test Skate (21 August).

 

[karina17]

I said it sounds fishy, didn't I?


No, +Lo combo won't help her there since by new rules repeating a quad more than once is forbidden now. How it's gonna make a difference? Still, two quad combos is very plausible scenario considering that it was said about training process - and in training, as we all know by now, it's common for Eteri students to add extra jumps for stability. Of course it doesn't mean they gonna add two quad combos in real competition program - but it doesn't make this testimony any less believable too.

Sorry, I was trying to agree with you about it being sketchy but it wasn't very clear.

And yeah, the quad-3Lo won't help her points-wise but I could see Sasha wanting to be the first to land one, lol.

 

[colormyworld240]

TSL guys are only a step below Rodina. The only reason being they never said they wanted to smash a child's face.

But there's constructive criticism and then there's rudeness and pettiness for the sake of views. Because calling someone's program/performance trash is the only thing that is trashy. So is blaming an entire coaching team for "throwing out skaters because they're disposable" when there is no proof. Constructive criticism is discussing parts of what you didn't like, breaking them down logically, and contributing what you think can be done better. Or discussing why technical changes you think need to be implemented to help an athlete adapt to their changes. That's giving an opinion. Like Alina once said, everyone has the right to their opinion but perhaps not so rudely. If a 15 year old knows that, surely any respectable adult would as well. I don't think it's a cultural difference at all. It's character and class. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean you have class nor that your opinion should be respected.

The TSL guys have said some things that I agree with, and they do like some skaters that I also like. And people have said worse than them. But that's not an excuse for the horrible things they've said. Just like how being a great coach and choreographer doesn't excuse TAT from being classless when she told Radionova that she needs to lose weight in front of member of the fed. That's her character.

 

[Georgya]

TSL guys are only a step below Rodina. The only reason being they never said they wanted to smash a child's face.

But there's constructive criticism and then there's rudeness and pettiness for the sake of views. Because calling someone's program/performance trash is the only thing that is trashy. So is blaming an entire coaching team for "throwing out skaters because they're disposable" when there is no proof. Constructive criticism is discussing parts of what you didn't like, breaking them down logically, and contributing what you think can be done better. Or discussing why technical changes you think need to be implemented to help an athlete adapt to their changes. That's giving an opinion. Like Alina once said, everyone has the right to their opinion but perhaps not so rudely. If a 15 year old knows that, surely any respectable adult would as well. I don't think it's a cultural difference at all. It's character and class. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean you have class nor that your opinion should be respected.

The TSL guys have said some things that I agree with, and they do like some skaters that I also like. And people have said worse than them. But that's not an excuse for the horrible things they've said. Just like how being a great coach and choreographer doesn't excuse TAT from being classless when she told Radionova that she needs to lose weight in front of member of the fed. That's her character.

Totally agree with you. Many posters here have rushed to defend TSL but I would like to see if the shoe was on the other foot.

And it's nothing cultural, everyone with two eyes can throw random comments - from valid criticism to pure hate - the main point is that a particular opinion gains weight if it comes from somebody who actually knows things more than gossip. From where I stand TSL guys are not valid critics but rude and petty nobodies. So their opinion don't matter pain an simple for me. The problem is that their comments inspire dislike and hate. A big chunk of their followers will adopt the same language to talk about the russian girls and the same speech.