Lovers of Ballet: Happy or unhappy when ballet music is used in figure skating? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Lovers of Ballet: Happy or unhappy when ballet music is used in figure skating?

I've been singing the praises of Ota for some years now. Her presentations were exquisite. Nowadays she needs a 3A. Just read the demand in the forums for 3As. Probably the most talked about jump in this forum whether it is ladies or men.
I don't think it's the forums that demand triple Axels and quads, it's the judging system. These kids are trying to win competitions. The way to win is to score lots of points. The way to score lots of points is to do the big jumps. Skating like a ballerina, not so much.

If you look at the all-time greats in terms of success in the sport, Sonia Henie, Katarina Witt, Carol Heiss, Irina Rodnina, Ulrich Salchow, Dick Button, Scott Hamilton -- all belong to the anti-ballerina school of skating. (Not saying this is a good thing, just making an observation.)
 
I was under the impression that Baryshnikov also wasn't really attracted to NYCB because under Mr. B, let's face it, the company was not about the danseurs.

Nevertheless, he was determined to have his Balanchine "experience." He left ABT and stayed with NYCB for two years at the end of the 70's, before taking over as artistic director at ABT in 1980. Because of his height, Patricia McBride was his frequent partner at NYCB.

I wonder what kind of a price his body paid for those two years, and if he actually took daily class with Balanchine during that time...
 
I think that them using ballet music in skating is a good thing because ever since figure went away, little style has been used in skating so anything to bring that beauty that skating once had back has my vote.
I may sound somewhat antagonistic to music written specifically for a ballet with a story in mind, but how much Petipa ballet related music can you take? There isn't even that much written. Tschaikowsky hated writing it, Minkus needed the money. It is using the same old tunes year after year and interpreting the same old routines year after year'

I have no qualm about using excerpts of these musical pieces but I just do not want to see a skater mimic the hero or heroine in in a story ballet (or opera), Do they not have the originality to bring something to the music of their own? No one is going to do Swan Lake like Nina Ananiashvili or Tosca like Callas.

Let me see a skater do something with a warhorse - the way John Curry did with Don Q. John was special; Kurt is special in that he gets the essence of contemporary music; Kwan never used a story line but you got the feeling of the music as a musical piece.

Joe
 
Great post, layman. I just watched Kimmie at the Japan Open and was quite horrified by the awkwardness of her positions. I really wonder if this, more than jump problems, didn't account for her finishing last. (There was also one very odd fall on nothing, ie she must have tripped on a bump in the ice, right under the judges' noses. :frown: ) She absolutely needs ballet training to become more aware and in control of her line and carriage.


and she was wearing a ponytail!! That is a first. her hair is always in a bun. I must say it really didn't fit the program. Very juvinlle looking.
 
I love the ponytail! She had it at the recent exhibition in Reading too, IIRC.

But come to think of it, it doesn't fit the program!
 
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Nevertheless, he was determined to have his Balanchine "experience." He left ABT and stayed with NYCB for two years at the end of the 70's, before taking over as artistic director at ABT in 1980. Because of his height, Patricia McBride was his frequent partner at NYCB.

I wonder what kind of a price his body paid for those two years, and if he actually took daily class with Balanchine during that time...

Patricia McBride is doing a fabulous job at North Carolina Dance Theatre! One of our alumni from the company I work for has just been named a principal for NCDT. We're so proud!

Nurevey had a difficult time with Balanchine as well. If you've ever seen one of those video bios of Nurevey, he makes some interesting tongue in cheek comments without actually saying anything bad. It's funny how styles go-Balanchine was the Great American Hope during the cold war (though himself a Russian), and when the Eastern Europeans flooded the west in the late 80's and 90's, the Russian technique and look was all the rage and Balanchine was not as touted. Now it seems maybe it's going back the other way a bit. There are different styles, and each has its points. No pun intended.
 
What was interesting in that movie about the Ballet Russe was that Ballanchine was among the choreographers (Fokine, Lichine, Massine, etc.) in the early years, but they eventually fired him.
At the end of the film it is Ballanchine who became the most successful ballet master, choreographer, artistic director, etc., and with it came a new style in ballet.

Joe

PS. What does the suffix 'ine' in all those names mean?
 
That's one point of view, Joe. I respect Balanchine, but I don't care for the style, and it's murder on the body over time-so I've been told by innumerable dancers.

I truly believe that Balanchine was the US answer to the Cold War dominance of the Russian Ballet. He was "Look here-we have something better than those Communists!" and this whole publicity machine grew up around him to puff us up against our cold war enemy. I'm not saying he wasn't great, just not as great as he was promoted. We had to beat those Ruskies at their own game! I'll never forget being a kid and watching the Ed Sullivan Show. They had a couple of GREAT ballet dancers on who were direct from either the then-Kirov or Bolshoi, and the audience booed them. What a travesty! While we were promoting Balanchine and his-to me-sterile and empty (to me) ballets, the Russians were creating Spartacus and dancers such as Maximova and Vasiliev and dozens m ore...of whom I have lots of video! I guess it's just a personal preference, but I've worked in the ballet world all my life, and I know for a fact that the overall caliber of dance in America really rose when the Eastern Europeans were free to come over here in mid-80s and onward.
 
I don't think it's the forums that demand triple Axels and quads, it's the judging system. These kids are trying to win competitions. The way to win is to score lots of points. The way to score lots of points is to do the big jumps. Skating like a ballerina, not so much.

If you look at the all-time greats in terms of success in the sport, Sonia Henie, Katarina Witt, Carol Heiss, Irina Rodnina, Ulrich Salchow, Dick Button, Scott Hamilton -- all belong to the anti-ballerina school of skating. (Not saying this is a good thing, just making an observation.)

All of the skaters that you mentioned were heavily influenced by ballet. Good posture, extension and line don't just come naturally. No one is born with it. It has to be developed through the techniques of ballet.

To take just a few of your examples, Dick Button had ballet training. This is obvious from his squared shoulders and the alignment of his head and back through the core of the body, obvious from his up-right stance and the stretch of his legs and turn out of his free-foot. Ditto for Witt, Henie, Heiss, Salchow and Hamilton.

Dick has been commentating on the influence of ballet in figure skating for years and he has taken the time to point out skaters who need to take additional (ballet) lessons and learn to correct posture problems (Slutskaya, Goebel etc.).

All the Russian skaters were heavilly influenced by ballet and all of them studied ballet throughout their careers.

Moreover, it was Rodnina, who brought Russian ballet instructors like the late Elena Tcherckaskaya of the the Bolshoi, to Lake Arrowhead, to train her students, Angela Nikodinov and Tiffany and Johnny Steigler, and give them such a beautiful, polished look and polished presentation.
 
That's one point of view, Joe. I respect Balanchine, but I don't care for the style, and it's murder on the body over time-so I've been told by innumerable dancers.

I truly believe that Balanchine was the US answer to the Cold War dominance of the Russian Ballet. He was "Look here-we have something better than those Communists!" and this whole publicity machine grew up around him to puff us up against our cold war enemy. I'm not saying he wasn't great, just not as great as he was promoted. We had to beat those Ruskies at their own game! I'll never forget being a kid and watching the Ed Sullivan Show. They had a couple of GREAT ballet dancers on who were direct from either the then-Kirov or Bolshoi, and the audience booed them. What a travesty! While we were promoting Balanchine and his-to me-sterile and empty (to me) ballets, the Russians were creating Spartacus and dancers such as Maximova and Vasiliev and dozens m ore...of whom I have lots of video! I guess it's just a personal preference, but I've worked in the ballet world all my life, and I know for a fact that the overall caliber of dance in America really rose when the Eastern Europeans were free to come over here in mid-80s and onward.
Whoa. I can't remember any take on politics being associated with ballet, and in my young days I read a lot about ballet. Have you been to New York and watched the Bolshoi at the Met Opera House. The bravos from the audience could be heard on the next block. I can't imagine where you got that impression.

When exactly did we promote Ballanchine? He was personna non grata in the Soviet Union, The only invitation the Bolshoi gave to an American ballerina was Alicia Alonso (a Cuban communist as some believe). That could be political on the part of the Soviet Union, but Alicia could dance freely in the US until she decided that she was more Cuban than American.

The overall quality of dance in the United States rose when the Czarist exiles started teaching in the United States. Think the l930s! but your history of ballet is limited and strange. Ed Sullivan? Do you have a tape of that show?

Ballanchine ballets are part and parcel of the Maryinsky and Bolshoi companies today as is many other 'Western" choreographers. Russian ballet is trying to get out of its Stalin type of Petipa ballets (they all look alike)' Finally they are going after variety.

Styles of dancing, if you still keep up with it, have meld throughout the companies of the world, but some people get caught up in the waters of swan lake and can't get out of it.

Great dancers are gifted and come from just about every country. Great choreographers who innovate a movement are very rare. Check out Wheeldon, if you can get away from the Bolshoi.

Joe
 
We could do with Wheeldon coming back home for a while to create some new Ballets here! ;)

Balanchine's Symphony in C is truly a masterpiece of all time, I wouldn't mind seeing skaters try to interpret extracts from Bizet's First Symphony. :agree:

John Curry's every performance displayed the qualities of a Ballet dancer like no other male skater since. The 76 Olympic Gold routine is perfection. :bow:

Recently I've discovered Katherine Healy. :clap:

Here's Floskate's tribute to her: Prima
 
NYCB/Balanchine was a big hit when they toured the USSR. Allegra Kent was a particular favorite with the Russians (especially in the Agon pas de deux with Arthur Mitchell.)
 
I think, Joe, that you'd better get your own ballet knowledge updated before you go being ugly about someone else. Petipa and Stalin? You've got to be kidding.

Your post was both nasty and ill informed about what you suppose my ballet knowledge to be - you are basing your opinions on the fact that I don't care for someone you happen to like. I stated very frankly that liking Balanchine is a matter of taste. I believe last time I looked, we were free to have individual preferences. I don't care much for Balanchine. That's neither a crime nor a lack of taste on my part-it's simply a preference. I totally give Balanchine his due-if you read my previous posts you'll see that I stated that. Also, if you read my post, I did say that "I believe" that Balanchine's support was politically motivated as a cold war ploy-it is a favorite theory of mine, but that's all I said it was. A theory for heaven's sake- not written in stone! No need to attack me for it. I honestly think it's a pretty entertaining idea. And yes, though I have not seen the Bolshoi at the Met, I have seen the Kirov twice at the London Colesium on two different tours, (Romeo and Juliet once, Fountain of Bakhisherai (boy did I garble that word!)) plus I've seen them live three additional times in various American cities. I've regularly attended the US International Ballet Competition in Jackson, MS and there met and conversed with Vladimir Vassiliev and his wife Maximova several times. I have seen soloists and principals of the Bolshoi, however,several times on a special tour they had a few years ago. Ditto with Paris Opera Ballet. I have a speaking relationship with the great Kirov ballerina Irina Kolpakova and have friendships with dancers at Boston Ballet, North Carolina Dance Theatre, Houston Ballet, and Ballet Arizona. If you'd like specifics and a whole lot more, PM me. I hope that satisfies your curiosity. :)

Also, there were a lot of politics associated with Ballet during the mid 20th century. Tons of them. For example, the Bolshoi's great Maya Plisetskaya's father was executed by Stalin, and she was therefore never allowed to tour because they KNEW she'd defect. No politics in ballet? Are you kidding? What about Nureyev, Makarova, Goudonov? Their defections caused much political fallout durng this Cold War of which I speak! Nureyev was shadowed by the KGB for the rest of his life and was only allowed back into Russia to see his family when he was dying of AIDS. The US government was under duress to fork over Baryshnikov! Are you old enough to remember that? I am!

YOUR historical perspective seems to be stuck in the first half of the 20th century. Where did all this 30's Ballet Russe stuff and Alonzo have to do with what we're talking about ?I'm speaking of the Cold War...I don't know how old you are, but you might or might not remember that. It happened after WWII until Reagan. I lived through it, and well, we just didn't have video recorders back then so I could tape the Ed Sullivan show, just certain that some day I'd need to whip that bad boy out and wave it around a figure skating chat site. Do you even remember the Ed Sullivan show? Those boos weren't last year or even ten years ago. They happened in the 60's.....and of course that doesn't happen nowdays. Rude people in theatres simply bring their six month old or cell phones!:laugh:

Of course companies all over the world perform Balanchine. Not as much as they did about 10 years ago. After Eastern Europe opened up, all those companies were curious and wanted to perform western ballets. I think that's great.

Do you even KNOW any "real" ballet dancers?

And by the way.....Petipa was dead and buried long before Stalin's time. Seems your knowledge of ballet history is pretty funky. Petipa's work was in the last half of the 19th century. I can't believe you're criticizing my knowledge and you said something like that.

And I am not stuck in Swan Lake. I much prefer to be stuck in La Bayadere. Makarova produced that great ballet for the Royal Ballet about 15 years ago-a great production. But she had to cut much of the character dances....western trained dancers just couldn't handle them stylistically. A recent version of "La Corsaire" choreographed by the Kirov's Eldar Aliev was drastically cut down because he didn't think American audiences could grasp something that complex. Oh-I know that because I have a best friend who worked for him.

I hope you have a lovely evening.
 
John Curry's every performance displayed the qualities of a Ballet dancer like no other male skater since.
Or before. Or lady. To me, Curry is the only skater ever who looked like he was doing ballet on ice.

(Which is not to deny the influence of ballet training on many skaters, as detailed above by Layman. :) )
 
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I think, Joe, that you'd better get your own ballet knowledge updated before you go being ugly about someone else. Petipa and Stalin? You've got to be kidding.
This is one of those posts, I never finished reading. More attacks about me than discussion of the subject.

Curry!!! Now there was a brilliant skater, maybe the greatest ever. But in today's world he would have problems without a Quad. It seems to me, that figure skating fans today are more interested in acrobatic-like skating and not ballet-like skating. JMO

Joe
 
Now, now Joe! If you dish it out, you've got to be able to take it too! You took jabs at me, and it's only fair for me to defend myself. You are wrong-there is much more on that post about the subject than about you, and if you read it, you'd see that. I can't make you read my post, but if you did, you would see that I DO know what I'm talking about, and that perhaps you were ill advised to attack me as you did. Let's be friends! Two people who both love ballet should be.....but.....you've got to allow me to defend myself when you make incorrect statements about my knowledge and experiences. After all, you don't know me, and you will continue not to know me if you don't read my post! And then you'd be missing out on so much wonderfulness...........:laugh:
 
Curry!!! Now there was a brilliant skater, maybe the greatest ever. But in today's world he would have problems without a Quad. It seems to me, that figure skating fans today are more interested in acrobatic-like skating and not ballet-like skating. JMO
Well, no one had a quad in Curry's time. I don't see any reason why he couldn't manage four balletic revolutions if he were coming into the game now.

But about fans not liking ballet-like skating, even in Curry's day, if I remember correctly, he was advised that the judges would never favor him because of his balletic style. He came to the U.S. to train in a conscious effort to tone down the ballet, and was rewarded with a gold medal.

Dick Button was a graceful skater, but what won championships was his triple toe loop (the first ever) and his double Axel (ditto). So I am not sure that the preferences of the audience has changed much. Curry was just a remarkable athlete, in any era.
 
Dick Button was a graceful skater, but what won championships was his triple toe loop (the first ever)

Triple loop. :)

Seems like no one was trying triple toe until the 60s, that I'm aware of. Triple loop came first (Button, 1952), and then salchow.
 
If any passing Balletomanes have nothing to do, and would like to read a review of Mocow Stanislavsky Ballet's Swan Lake I wrote a couple of years ago after seeing them in London, it's here. You can skip the beginning about the architecture of the city, and head straight for the Production details a bit further down if you prefer. :)
 
Triple loop. :)

Seems like no one was trying triple toe until the 60s, that I'm aware of. Triple loop came first (Button, 1952), and then salchow.

I've seen Movietone film of David Jenkins doing a triple Axel - really - in 1957 for the cameras! :bow: Not in competition though, but you wonder why he didn't as it looked magnificent! :clap:
 
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