Women and the Quad

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Those "even former russian skaters" was just one skater, actually, and that was just a partial mentioning, not that Alina's SS as a whole are weaker. "How any nonbiased person" is in fact sign of comnpletely biased comment, part of the jigsaw of your personal expressions.

To me, Rika is the type of a skater who just does what is she told to do. Smiles when she is told to smile in her program, looks sweet when she is told to look sweet. To me she is still juniorish in the sense of feelings, That's not denying of her technical skills, but as a performer she still has only minor impact on me. She still can grow artistically, but in this moment she is still nowhere close to Alina or other top russian girl in presenting deep feelings.

Oh, and Tutberidze’s group is following their heart and doing self-taught choreography that comes natural to them?

 

[flanker]

Oh, and Tutberidze’s group is following their heart and doing self-taught choreography that comes natural to them?

When the actor on the scene expresses the feelings of the character he portrays, do you ask the screenwriter whether he followed the heart of this actor? Like, sometimes the author writes precisely for an actor, but I bet William S. wasn't aware that his merchant of Venice would be portrayed by a great Al in the future. What matters is whether the actor portrays his part convincingly or not.

Applied to figure skating, Eteri girls, even juniors, are more convincing to me than Rika ever was till now when it comes to feelings, and that's what matters, no matter your sarcasm

 

[VenusHalley]

Well and to others Rika is more convincing that Eteri crew kicking legs and waving arms and checking boxes.

Evgenia could pull it off, though I cannot say I miss her O face as mean of expressing emotion.

Rika may not be the most emotive but no way her skating feels juniorish and her programs feel to me more like dancong as opposed to checking boxes.

 

[theharleyquinn]

Alina won tons of competitions last season as well, yet she was not only called inconsistent, she was even advised to retire. Back to Rika, her 3A was inconsistent the whole season with the success rate only slightly above 50 % (just less inconsistent than the previous junior season). From the perspective if the consistency, Sasha's quads are the most consistent ultra-c elements in ladies skating.

The retirement comments are a separate, petty issue, but you can win competitions and still fairly be called inconsistent. People make that argument about Yuna Kim leading up to the Vancouver Olympics frequently.

I think we need to see Sasha's quads tested in more international senior competitions before making that comparison, but it could very well play out to be true. But then again, Rika's 3A has looked very good so far. Some of the most stable I've seen.

 

[flanker]

At least we have clarified that that every skater is valued on the gauge set by Eteri's team by those indefinite "others"

 

[flanker]

The retirement comments are a separate, petty issue, but you can win competitions and still fairly be called inconsistent. People make that argument about Yuna Kim leading up to the Vancouver Olympics frequently.

I think we need to see Sasha's quads tested in more international senior competitions before making that comparison, but it could very well play out to be true. But then again, Rika's 3A has looked very good so far. Some of the most stable I've seen.

The thing is I'm not predicting. But I've heard and read many predictions last season and I'm reading the very same predictions this season. About Rika (about stability of her axels), about Sasha (about potential instability of her quads). At least Alina is beyond predictions for now (it will probably change with the beginning of the GP series). But the moral of the story is that things went different than predictions said.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Anyone who says Sasha’s quads have yet to pass the test of time but are already sure that Rika’s 3A this season will be as consistent as her other triples needs to fact check. It could be true, but you cannot conclude that Rika was surely succeed while Sasha surely will not. It’s too early in the season to tell for both ladies.

IMO, they both look consistent so far to me. Especially Rika’s 3A (considering she had an injury at ACI), but Sasha landing three ROTATED quads - that’s pretty good hope for a good season.

 

[readernick]

Anyone who says Sasha’s quads have yet to pass the test of time but are already sure that Rika’s 3A this season will be as consistent as her other triples needs to fact check. It could be true, but you cannot conclude that Rika was surely succeed while Sasha surely will not. It’s too early in the season to tell for both ladies.

IMO, they both look consistent so far to me. Especially Rika’s 3A (considering she had an injury at ACI), but Sasha landing three ROTATED quads - that’s pretty good hope for a good season.

I don't anyone thinks there is any guarentee that either will be consistent. In terms of past consistency, both Rika's 3Asand Trusova's quads had about a 50% success rate last year. Anna never landed a clean quad in international competition.
Tuk's 3A was actually the most consistent element at close to 68 percent success rate.

I was actually very surprised at how consistent both Trusova and Rika seemed at their first competitions this season. (and frankly shocked that Anna landed that quad) Will this continue throughout the season? I hope so but I am not counting on it. It would be amazing if all the girls skated up to potential at each competition. But, I have hoped for that for years in the men's field and it hasn't happened yet!

 

[VenusHalley]

I don't anyone thinks there is any guarentee that either will be consistent. In terms of past consistency, both Rika's quads and Trusova's quads had about a 50% success rate last year. Anna never landed a clean quad in international competition.
Tujk's 3A was actually the most consistent element at close to 68 percent success rate.

I was actually very surprised at how consistent both Trusova and Rika seemed at their first competitions this season. (and frankly shocked that Anna landed that quad) Will this continue throughout the season? I hope so but I am not counting on it. It would be amazing if all the girls skated up to potential at each competition. But, I have hoped for that for years in the men's field and or hasn't happened yet!

Is there actually a skater that did not have an epic meltdown (or at least mess up multiple elements)?

We have seen Rika have one. TSL talked about how skater can unconsciously learn to "pop" a jump if they train it too hard and try to do it over and over again when they are messing it up. I wonder if Rika's team changed their strategy for practicing... different mindset could mean a world of difference.

 

[[email protected]]

I don't anyone thinks there is any guarentee that either will be consistent. In terms of past consistency, both Rika's quads and Trusova's quads had about a 50% success rate last year. Anna never landed a clean quad in international competition.
Tujk's 3A was actually the most consistent element at close to 68 percent success rate.

I was actually very surprised at how consistent both Trusova and Rika seemed at their first competitions this season. (and frankly shocked that Anna landed that quad) Will this continue throughout the season? I hope so but I am not counting on it. It would be amazing if all the girls skated up to potential at each competition. But, I have hoped for that for years in the men's field and or hasn't happened yet!

What quads are you talking about? If you meant 3A she was inconsistent when it mattered most with one landed jump out of 3. She received total 19 points for them. Trusova during JWC landed 2 quads out of 3 attempts and received 33 points. Big difference.

We have not seen a quad from Rika yet at a competition. Although JO is a fun one, having Kihira, Trusova, and Zagitova compete with one another is a big thing. If Rika shows a rotated and landed quad with 2 landed triple axels, yes, it will be a very big statement. If not, well, business as usual. What Alina and Sasha are going to do is of much less importance: Alina does not have quads or "trixels" while Sasha already showed twice that she can land 3 quads. And I am sure that she will land them at Rusnats and the Worlds.

 

[readernick]

What quads are you talking about? If you meant 3A she was inconsistent when it mattered most with one landed jump out of 3. She received total 19 points for them. Trusova during JWC landed 2 quads out of 3 attempts and received 33 points. Big difference.

We have not seen a quad from Rika yet at a competition. Although JO is a fun one, having Kihira, Trusova, and Zagitova compete with one another is a big thing. If Rika shows a rotated and landed quad with 2 landed triple axels, yes, it will be a very big statement. If not, well, business as usual. What Alina and Sasha are going to do is of much less importance: Alina does not have quads or "trixels" while Sasha already showed twice that she can land 3 quads. And I am sure that she will land them at Rusnats and the Worlds.

Obviously it was a typo, I meant her 3A. Thank you for pointing out my error. But, the success rate is accurate. You can have your own view of what is important (apparently for you only worlds) but over the entire season their success rate was about roughly equal... around 50%.Neither was consistent. Consistency on high risk elements is never a guarentee. Trusova is certainly a good competitor and I mentioned above that I think she is likely to win due to mental strength. She may continue to land those quads at each competition. (I hope she does- frankly I hope they are all consistent this season )but past results have not proven she or any competitor with high risk elements is likely to hit them in every competition. ( this is true for both ladies and men)

 

[flanker]

Obviously it was a typo, I meant her 3A. Thank you for pointing out my error. But, the success rate is accurate. You can have your own view of what is important (apparently for you only worlds) but over the entire season their success rate was about roughly equal... around 50%.Neither was consistent. Consistency on high risk elements is never a guarentee. Trusova is certainly a good competitor and I mentioned above that I think she is likely to win due to mental strength. She may continue to land those quads at each competition. (I hope she does- frankly I hope they are all consistent this season )but past results have not proven she or any competitor with high risk elements is likely to hit them in every competition. ( this is true for both ladies and men)

It's not only success rate as a whole. Fall from fully rotated quad is still worth more than popped 3A. and still Trusova landed three clean quads in last three three different events, spartakiad, test skates and Nepela. So the consistency is pretty good. That's something that wasn't achieved by Kihira yet.

 

[moriel]

The one assumption I won't question is the assumption that Rika will land the 4S; without that assumption, obviously nothing is worth comparing.

Assumptions I will question:
1. Rika also normally does 3 lutzes, it's just that a minor leg injury prevented her from doing a 3Lz at ACI. If you take her WTT short from last season, for instance, where she landed her entire layout, you'd find a jump base value (+GOE)
3A = 8.00 + 2.86 -> 10.86
3F + 3T = 9.50 + 1.51 -> 11.01
3Lz = 6.49 + 2.11 -> 8.60

Add on GOEs, her jumps total 30.47.

Now, for Rika's free skate, you actually took her ACI free skate, because her 2018 NHK layout was
3A+3T, 3A, 3Lo, 3Lz+2T, 3F, 3Lz+2T+2Lo, 3S
If we take the scores that actually correspond to her NHK jump layout, we find
3A + 3T = 12.20 + 2.63 = 14.83
3A = 8.00 + 3.09 = 11.09
3Lo = 4.90 + 1.54 = 6.44
3Lz + 2T = 7.20 + 1.69 = 8.89
3Fx = 5.83 + 1.59 = 7.42
3Lzx + 2T + 2Lo = 9.79 + 1.26 = 11.05
3S = 4.73 + 1.17 = 5.90

This gives a total jump value of 30.47 + 65.62 = 96.09, a gap of 11.83.

Now, if you take a look at Rika's planned content this year, she plans on swapping out a 2T+2Lo with a +Eu+3S and then plans to replace the 3S with a 4S. Overall, she replaces a 2T+2Lo with a 4S, Eu. For simplicity, I will neglect the +10% bonuses. A 2T+2Lo is worth 3, a 4S and Eu are worth 10.2, giving her an extra 7.2 base value. If we give her any kind of +GOE on her 4S, like a +2, the same GOE will not be applied to her 3S, which the above does involve in calculations, so the net GOE gain is about 1 point. Thus, Rika stands to gain around an extra 8 points from her 4S.

The TES gap is now 3-4 points. You may make a comment about Sasha's PCS rising. However, keep in mind that Rika gave a relatively uninspired performance of her programs at ACI too, so her PCS could very well rise too. Thus, it is dangerous to try and compare their PCS scores after any rises.

Basically, the point is, if you have a TES gap of 3-4 points and a PCS gap of about 6 points, it's an even competition. Rika has three difficult jumps and one difficult combination to land: two solo 3As, one 3A+2T and a 4S. Sasha has three difficult combinations and two difficult jumps to land: two 3Lz+3Lo (which she has struggled with at times), 4Lz, 4T, 4T+3T. It's easier than you might think for either skater to mess up. Thus, my conclusion is this: if they both skate perfectly clean, which would be extraordinary, it's down to the judges. If any of them makes mistakes, it's a matter of who messes up more. I will agree, however, that Sasha is more likely to skate perfectly clean than Rika, and that is the only reason I give the advantage to Sasha. If Rika shows any ability to skate her programs consistently, it'll be much more even.

There is a reason I didn't count WTT. Which is it is WTT.

 

[Elucidus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN-H64vit6M
OMG, it appears Liu's quads were rotated after all - while Valieva's are not. And Trusova have zero speed on exit from quads while Liu is smooth as silk. What an enlightment!

 

[lzxnl]

There is a reason I didn't count WTT. Which is it is WTT.

I count WTT solely because her GPF SP skate contained a downgraded sit spin. Her GPF short was scored basically the same in the jumps. Your comment is clutching at straws.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

When the actor on the scene expresses the feelings of the character he portrays, do you ask the screenwriter whether he followed the heart of this actor? Like, sometimes the author writes precisely for an actor, but I bet William S. wasn't aware that his merchant of Venice would be portrayed by a great Al in the future. What matters is whether the actor portrays his part convincingly or not.

Applied to figure skating, Eteri girls, even juniors, are more convincing to me than Rika ever was till now when it comes to feelings, and that's what matters, no matter your sarcasm

You’re allowed to have your opinion. But to trivialize Rika as “a girl being told what to do” when extolling skaters like Alina and several of the Russian juniors skate who are clearly performing programs that have been specifically and carefully choreographed for them to skate through is rather double standards. Kostornaia is the only one currently that IMO looks like she’s actually feeling her programs and not just reeling off choreography (to the point that I actually forget she’s a student of Eteri’s sometimes).

I will say Rika’s programs aren’t as captivating as last season but I don’t feel like she’s just going through the motions either. She certainly has more finesse and nuance in her skating than some of the flailier Russian girls.

Trusova deserves to win if she goes clean but it won’t be because she’s the best overall skater or has amazing artistry. Which is fine by me since it’s a sport and she’s miles above the others technically. But again just my opinion, and you’re entitled to what you believe. You do you, boo!

 

[colormyworld240]

You’re allowed to have your opinion. But to trivialize Rika as “a girl being told what to do” when extolling skaters like Alina and several of the Russian juniors skate who are clearly performing programs that have been specifically and carefully choreographed for them to skate through is rather double standards. Kostornaia is the only one currently that IMO looks like she’s actually feeling her programs and not just reeling off choreography (to the point that I actually forget she’s a student of Eteri’s sometimes).

I will say Rika’s programs aren’t as captivating as last season but I don’t feel like she’s just going through the motions either. She certainly has more finesse and nuance in her skating than some of the flailier Russian girls.

Trusova deserves to win if she goes clean but it won’t be because she’s the best overall skater or has amazing artistry. Which is fine by me since it’s a sport and she’s miles above the others technically. But again just my opinion, and you’re entitled to what you believe. You do you, boo!

Have you seen Alina at test skates? Especially her SP. She's not skating through anything, and she's clearly not just doing what she's told to do. And I can't believe anyone would ever think this of Anna. Watch her JGPF SP last year. She's the one that feels her music regardless of quads, any other jumps, even when she bombs the program. Like yes she has a quad and good tech, but that's nowhere close to the most impressive think about her. I actually disagree with Alena feeling her music. Skating skills is not the same as artistry.

 

[IndiaP12]

You’re allowed to have your opinion. But to trivialize Rika as “a girl being told what to do” when extolling skaters like Alina and several of the Russian juniors skate who are clearly performing programs that have been specifically and carefully choreographed for them to skate through is rather double standards. Kostornaia is the only one currently that IMO looks like she’s actually feeling her programs and not just reeling off choreography (to the point that I actually forget she’s a student of Eteri’s sometimes).

Are you for real? I think Anna feels her programs even more than Alena. She’s the only one who looks like she is enjoying it and she really wants to be out there on the ice. And Alina too, the times when she wasn’t having difficulties. As much as she is a lovely skater, I think there is a lot of hype built up around Alena and her artistry that people just assume. At least that’s my opinion. She doesn’t make me feel anything, but I hope that can change this year

 

[ec00834]

You’re allowed to have your opinion. But to trivialize Rika as “a girl being told what to do” when extolling skaters like Alina and several of the Russian juniors skate who are clearly performing programs that have been specifically and carefully choreographed for them to skate through is rather double standards. Kostornaia is the only one currently that IMO looks like she’s actually feeling her programs and not just reeling off choreography (to the point that I actually forget she’s a student of Eteri’s sometimes).

I will say Rika’s programs aren’t as captivating as last season but I don’t feel like she’s just going through the motions either. She certainly has more finesse and nuance in her skating than some of the flailier Russian girls.

Trusova deserves to win if she goes clean but it won’t be because she’s the best overall skater or has amazing artistry. Which is fine by me since it’s a sport and she’s miles above the others technically. But again just my opinion, and you’re entitled to what you believe. You do you, boo!

So Rika's miles better because she doesn't "flail" her body? When have Eteri girls ever been given "flaily" choreography?

Basically the generalization you're making is that only one of Eteri's students feel their programs and all the others are robotic?

 

[IndiaP12]

"flailier"[emoji782] That was such an unnecessary comment about their bodies. So Rika skates better because she's not "flail?"

Basically the generalization you're making is that only one of Eteri's students feel their programs and all the others are robotic?

Flail means flailing arms and legs around. I think you got mistaken by the word Frail