Is new ISU rule going to kill all pair teams' jump sequences?

[netnuts]

I've been lurking a bit, and found the discussion on the new ISU rule. Everybody is caught up in the 'flutz' stuff, but I believe there's an even more shocking impact on pairs skating.

Since most pair teams do jump sequence instead of combination jump. With rigorous rules on steps in-between, it seems to me all top pairs need to scratch their jump sequence and do something else.

A jump sequence may consist of any number of jumps of any number of revolutions that must be linked by non-listed jumps and hops immediately following each other while maintaining the jump rhythm (knee);there can be no three turns/Mohawks during the sequence; there can be no crossovers or stroking during the sequence.If this definition is not fulfilled, two solo jumps will be called.

Some video examples, it looks to me none of the following teams qualifies for the new rule.

D&D:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unqys7AnXU0

P&T:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntKRaAa-tv8

S&S:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBRKR8y9GPs

K&S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2jsSZJqxP4&mode=related&search=

V&M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATHp3Yuvh7s

I&B
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX6kQMpOGzY

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for joining us, netnuts. Welcome to Golden Skate, and thanks for starting this thread.

As I read the new rules, the two most important changes are must instead of may be connected by non-listed jumps and hops, and the specific proscription of three-turns and Mohawks.

I think the intent overall is to stop teams (and singles skaters, too) from just throwing any old thing together and calling it a combo or sequence -- judge's choice. For instance, you can't flub a combo and say, oh well, it's a sequence, then.

I think pairs teams can adapt to the more precise rules. But they will have to train the whole element (sequence) better, not just hope somehow or other to make the revolutions and land on their feet.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't understand the penalty:

A jump sequence may consist of any number of jumps of any number of revolutions that must be linked by non-listed jumps and hops immediately following each other while maintaining the jump rhythm (knee);there can be no three turns/Mohawks during the sequence; there can be no crossovers or stroking during the sequence.If this definition is not fulfilled, two solo jumps will be called.

- If this definition is not fulfilled, two solo jumps will be called? So what? Isn't that what the base scores would be for a combo or a seqence anyway? Of course, it might affect the Zayak rule, but that would be easy enough to avoid with other jumps.
No big change in this rule - somewhat like th flutz rule. Am I correct?

Joe

 

[Kypma]

I don't understand the penalty:



- If this definition is not fulfilled, two solo jumps will be called? So what? Isn't that what the base scores would be for a combo or a seqence. Of course, it might affect the Zayak rule, but that would be easy enough to avoid with other jumps.
No big change in this rule - somewhat like th flutz rule. Am I correct?

Joe

Actually, this does affect the rule that states that a pair's free program (junior or senior) has a maximum of one solo jump and one jump combination or sequence. So having the two jumps called as two solo jumps, the pair would have one illegal element, or two is the solo jump was done first.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Actually, this does affect the rule that states that a pair's free program (junior or senior) has a maximum of one solo jump and one jump combination or sequence. So having the two jumps called as two solo jumps, the pair would have one illegal element, or two is the solo jump was done first.

Thank you Kypma. I just didn't know the original rule about the 'maximum'.

So much for FREE SKATING which is no longer free.

Joe

 

[icesk8erdude4e]

I feel bad for the pairs teams that are doing these sequences, like Aliona Savchenko and Robin Szolkowy now will NOT get credit for their jump sequence because of the three turns.

now their going to have to go back to the basic skills book and add things such as: side toe hops, mazurkas, ballet jumps and stuff like that that they haven't done in a while most likely; now we'll see who decides to still do jump sequences.

 

[netnuts]

I feel bad for the pairs teams that are doing these sequences, like Aliona Savchenko and Robin Szolkowy now will NOT get credit for their jump sequence because of the three turns.

now their going to have to go back to the basic skills book and add things such as: side toe hops, mazurkas, ballet jumps and stuff like that that they haven't done in a while most likely; now we'll see who decides to still do jump sequences.

Not just Aliona and Robin. Among top 12 finishers in Tokyo, only three pairs - Shen & Zhao, L&O(Canada) and Zhangs did combination jumps, all others used jump sequences.

It looks to me all the current jump sequences will be ruled illegal by new standard. They have to either relearn a combination jump or rearrange their jump sequences. Either option will be easy. All those new in-between steps are either too difficult linking to the second jump or not suitable for pairs due to unison consideration.

 

[antmanb]

The main problem with it is that Pairs tend to use the sequences involving three turns etc because it gives them the chance to get back in synch if something goes wrong for one or both of them on the first jump - the three turn allows them to see each other again whereas a straight combination leaves one partner blind to the other and unable to see whether the other compelted the jump correctly and in synch as should be.

Another reason is that becuase of the height and size differences between the partners a jump sequence with three turns allows the skaters to catch up with each other. The man will generally jump higher and longer and the lady will often rotate faster. You see this with couples like the suideks more clearly - he will often take off slightly before her so that they land the jumps together in synch. If you do a seuquence involving turns then you can match up the second jumps, if you do a normal combination then the partner that does the jumps slightly faster (usually the female) will get ahead on both jumps and the synchronisation will be lost.

I agree that this will hit the pairs hard and there is also an element of added danger in that one partner may be in the other's blind spot and if theone that can't be seen falls in the path of the other there could be some nasty accidents on combination jumps.

Ant

 

[netnuts]

I agree that this will hit the pairs hard and there is also an element of added danger in that one partner may be in the other's blind spot and if theone that can't be seen falls in the path of the other there could be some nasty accidents on combination jumps.

Ant

I think you're absolutely right. This will have a profound impact on pairs' long program next season. As you said, to tweak the jump sequences is very difficult for pairs. It's also difficult for those established pairs to learn a new combination jump. Shen & Zhao have very strong sbs jumps. Even they had some difficulty in relearning a sbs 3t+2t combination jump after their previous 2A+3T+SEQ was ruled illegal in 2005.

I don't know how many pairs can do a reliable 3t+2t combo.