Senior Ladies Need To Up The Age Requirement

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The truth is, many people, including people in the figure skating world never tried to understand what SS are defined by ISU and what judges are looking for while evaluating skating skills in one skaters program. They are looking at Michele Kwan or Yuna Kim programmes and think - that is how everyone need to skate to have good marks for SS. Which is complitely wrong. The truth is - You can demonstrate good SS in many different ways, and they can all look different. But SS are certanly not being esteticaly pleasing while doing a cross overs. I'm amazed how many people believe that is what SS are :noshake:

I see that there could be misunderstanding. From the context some people meant SS to be Step Sequence - others Skating Skills. Speaking about the former for the last time as I already said it more than once. I would not mind increasing the weight of SS but only with coming accountability from the panel about the reasons for level deduction.

I rewatched Sasha's and Rika's SS during Skate Canada SP. Yes, Rika's performance was more fluid and I liked it better. But we have GOE for that. As for the elements I could not see any striking differences between the two sets of SS elements. I watched Sasha's SS at 0.25 speed. It looked like she did everything that was planned - I could not catch any missteps or missed elements. I am sure that Eteri and David did not plan level 2 SS for her. The question is where were her mistakes? They had to be very obvious because level 2 appeared just a second after her steps finished. If those mistakes that cost 2 levels are so obvious that tech guys don't need to think about them just name it like you say "UR" or "wrong edge". This will be especially important if the value of SS is going to be increased as some people suggest.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

SS - skating skills
StSq - step sequence

 

[b-man]

I see that there could be misunderstanding. From the context some people meant SS to be Step Sequence - others Skating Skills. Speaking about the former for the last time as I already said it more than once. I would not mind increasing the weight of SS but only with coming accountability from the panel about the reasons for level deduction.

I rewatched Sasha's and Rika's SS during Skate Canada SP. Yes, Rika's performance was more fluid and I liked it better. But we have GOE for that. As for the elements I could not see any striking differences between the two sets of SS elements. I watched Sasha's SS at 0.25 speed. It looked like she did everything that was planned - I could not catch any missteps or missed elements. I am sure that Eteri and David did not plan level 2 SS for her. The question is where were her mistakes? They had to be very obvious because level 2 appeared just a second after her steps finished. If those mistakes that cost 2 levels are so obvious that tech guys don't need to think about them just name it like you say "UR" or "wrong edge". This will be especially important if the value of SS is going to be increased as some people suggest.

The rules on step sequences and levels are complicated, I certainly don't understand them. One poster who used to be on GS explained them a few years ago. You need SIGNIFICANTLY more turns, changes of direction, etc, to get level 4, a lot of effort for not much reward. Eteri may very well have decided the extra effort was not worth it.

 

[Mista Ekko]

There's no need to lower the age

If you don't like the Quads then just devalue them so they're not worth while :sarcasm:

Like in Pairs... :disapp:

 

[dorispulaski]

Don't get me started about the chicanery in pairs scoring rules about quad twists, throw quads,and throw triple Axels. I still love pairs but....

 

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The rules on step sequences and levels are complicated, I certainly don't understand them. One poster who used to be on GS explained them a few years ago. You need SIGNIFICANTLY more turns, changes of direction, etc, to get level 4, a lot of effort for not much reward. Eteri may very well have decided the extra effort was not worth it.

It sounds convincing...in theory. In reality no, no, no. I "made an effort": side by side Sasha's step sequences at Nepela and Skate Canada at 0.25 speed. EXACTLY the same steps. Level 4 in Nepela - Level 2 in Canada.

More weight to step sequence? NO WAY!

 

[crazydreamer]

Sounds awful to me, incredibly bad idea. Would be boring watching everybody do exactly the same thing.
Because in order for it to be truly fair it can't just be the jumps that have to be the same. Spins, steps, the kind of music, the interpretation, everything would have to be the same. So the winners are those who do a bunch of highly controlled prescribed things better than the rest.

It sounds silly but why should it just be for jumps?

I actually think that skating is becoming more monotonous under the current system. The people who win all have the same body type (or maybe two body types), the programs are very similar stylistically (lots of arm and leg flailing) and the spins are pretty boring.

I don’t think the solution is to bar 15 and 16 year olds from competing but rather to reward those skaters who make their programs different and more interesting. Current PCS scoring is a joke. Some skaters should be getting 0-5s.

 

[moriel]

I actually think that skating is becoming more monotonous under the current system. The people who win all have the same body type (or maybe two body types), the programs are very similar stylistically (lots of arm and leg flailing) and the spins are pretty boring.

I don’t think the solution is to bar 15 and 16 year olds from competing but rather to reward those skaters who make their programs different and more interesting. Current PCS scoring is a joke. Some skaters should be getting 0-5s.

That is not what judges want, really. Variety is not a thing for them.
I mean, look at the backloading rule change. Before, we had variety, with lots of different layouts. Now, everybody does literally the same layout because that is what maximizes scores and they all can do it.
Before, at least, very few ladies could fully backload so it was kind of more fun.

 

[b-man]

It sounds convincing...in theory. In reality no, no, no. I "made an effort": side by side Sasha's step sequences at Nepela and Skate Canada at 0.25 speed. EXACTLY the same steps. Level 4 in Nepela - Level 2 in Canada.

More weight to step sequence? NO WAY!

Well, there are many arguments on GS whether triple jumps are UR, or not, even with slow motion. Triples in combo and quads deserve a lot of points. I don't want to devalue or minimize triple combos or quads because TC's make mistakes.

Some tech controllers may not be up to speed on step sequence levels. Level 4s are difficult and time consuming, and are undervalued. I would like step sequences given more weight.

 

[noskates]

I haven't read this whole thread but I think I get the gist of it. My only reason for wanting the age limit raised is health. These tiny little sprites that are throwing quads, etc. are still developing and the risk for injury is high. And I feel that way about Alyssa Liu, too. Quite frankly, I'll be very surprised if some of them are even around for the Olympics. The pressure and the intensity of training is not easily handled in young teenagers or even older teenagers. They burn out quickly and we've definitely seen that with Eteri's stable of youngsters. Yes they work hard and it's commendable that they're getting recognition but when have they had time to be a kid? When have they had time to develop any part of their lives other than figure skating? (and that opinion is just conjecture obviously)

 

[bsfan]

Some years ago people cried for lowering age limit because Mao was not able to skate in Olympics (2006). Now people cried for raising the age limit because 15-16 yr old Russian girls are winning. If the age limit was raised, how about Liu?

 

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Well, there are many arguments on GS whether triple jumps are UR, or not, even with slow motion. Triples in combo and quads deserve a lot of points. I don't want to devalue or minimize triple combos or quads because TC's make mistakes.

Some tech controllers may not be up to speed on step sequence levels. Level 4s are difficult and time consuming, and are undervalued. I would like step sequences given more weight.

I understand your point. Once again, you are right but in theory. The jumps are not only easier for common folks to understand - tech people do review them before making their verdict. I am sure that the decision on Trusova's level 2 was made beforehand. If they looked at it that was before the competition. Because the level appeared immediately after she finished it. It's physically impossible to count the elements change of direction degree of using the body etc in real time. Then if it the case a fair procedure should be as follows. The tech people either after reviewing previous competition or practice session should say that they are going to give a certain level should StSq be preformed without mistakes. If this level is different from previous competition they should explain why they believe that previously assigned level was wrong. Otherwise it all looks arbitrary and political. I will laugh if for exactly the same steps Sasha will receive level 3 at CoR. Then for the same effort she will collect almost "the full house ". If it happens I will truly believe that TP are either political or have no clue how to assign levels. Both situations are bad news if we are talking about making StSq more valuable.

 

[crazydreamer]

I don’t think there is enough evidence yet to assess the health effects of the quad revolution. Nathan has been jumping quads since he was a little boy and still seems ok. I’m sure they may have hip, knee, etc. problems in their 30s but that is a problem in virtually every sport and skaters already have those problems even if they don’t do quads.

 

[el henry]

Some years ago people cried for lowering age limit because Mao was not able to skate in Olympics (2006). Now people cried for raising the age limit because 15-16 yr old Russian girls are winning. If the age limit was raised, how about Liu?

I don’t give a hoot if the Russian girls win eveything or nothing. Same with Alysa Liu. And I’m not crying

I do think we should consider raising the age limit.

 

[neud]

I think USFSA should raise the age limit of US skaters up to 18 years, so they couldn't compete nationally or internationally in Seniors until that age. When other countries will see the great results of this measure, they will decide for themselves.

 

[moriel]

I haven't read this whole thread but I think I get the gist of it. My only reason for wanting the age limit raised is health. These tiny little sprites that are throwing quads, etc. are still developing and the risk for injury is high. And I feel that way about Alyssa Liu, too. Quite frankly, I'll be very surprised if some of them are even around for the Olympics. The pressure and the intensity of training is not easily handled in young teenagers or even older teenagers. They burn out quickly and we've definitely seen that with Eteri's stable of youngsters. Yes they work hard and it's commendable that they're getting recognition but when have they had time to be a kid? When have they had time to develop any part of their lives other than figure skating? (and that opinion is just conjecture obviously)

And what age limit has to do with health?
Wouldnt it be healthier to, for example, forbid / restrict quads for juniors in competition, so even if they train it (and they will), it will not bring them immediate gain so maybe they will put less effort on it? Because, look, staying in junior does not keep girls from doing quads (Trusova, Shcherbakova, Liu) or facing intense competition and pressure.

But of course, age limit is the solution *sigh*

 

[andromache]

I personally hate it when these sorts of discussions get bogged down into discussions of X country versus Y country, or "X country only wants this because it's too hard for them to win!"

Do some people care about nationalism? Apparently. However, those of us exist who, you'll NEVER BELIEVE IT, like and root for skaters regardless of where they come from.

And FWIW, my favorite lady right now is Alena Kostornaia. If the age limit was raised, she would obviously be ineligible for senior competition. Would that make me sad? Of course! But for me, a potential age limit has much more to do with the sport as a whole and less to do with individuals athletes and countries. It's about the kind of competitions I want to see.

I can 100000% respect someone who wants to see 15 year old quad dynamos compete because they think it's exciting and how the sport should be moving forward. We have different ideas about what we care about in figure skating, and that's okay - we can have a good faith debate about that.

I am less into the veiled accusations that people with different priorities in figure skating are only out to punish X country's athletes or try to win more medals for Y country. It makes it impossible to have a reasonable conversation when one side is just accusing the other side of having malicious motives.

 

[andromache]

Some years ago people cried for lowering age limit because Mao was not able to skate in Olympics (2006). Now people cried for raising the age limit because 15-16 yr old Russian girls are winning. If the age limit was raised, how about Liu?

Wait a second...are you saying that an age limit would apply to the Russian ladies AND Alysa Liu???? Wow! I never considered that! Surely if there was an age limit, there would be an exception for her, right??? An age limit for the Russians only!! No age limit for Liu!!! THAT is what people are advocating for!!!


rolleye:)

 

[neud]

Same old story, as with "Zagitova rule". "If you can’t win the game, change the rules".

 

[neud]

staying in junior does not keep girls from doing quads (trusova, shcherbakova, liu) or facing intense competition and pressure.

Well said. Veronika Zhilina jumps 4T and 4S, and she is 11 y. o.