Senior Ladies Need To Up The Age Requirement

[gkelly]

So do you think that all juniors should be skating 4-minute freeskates?

Or is placement on the seasons best list really only relevant for a handful of top juniors who will be moving up to seniors the following year? And really only the 15-year-olds, because older juniors also have the option of entering senior competitions to earn senior scores.

 

[Mishaminion]

Several people in this thread seem to be confusing "discrimination" with "rules and regulations." All sports are governed by particular rules and regulations. These rules do not necessarily equate to "discrimination." For example, competitive wrestling (not pro wrestling) has divisions that are divided by weight. That is not "body discrimination" - it is a rule that serves a purpose. The major sports league in the US - MLB, NFL, NBA - all have age limits. Internationally, there are minimum age restrictions in FIFA.

Figure skating also has a minimum age restriction that already exists, we should remember. So we are not arguing about "discrimination." Age "discrimination" already exists - we are simply discussing if it should be altered.

Is it discrimination against children that they can't buy cigarettes and alcohol until they turn 21?

I mean, technically, yes we "discriminate" about all of those things. However, making decisions about what is reasonable or unreasonable for people is very different than unjust or prejudice.

In addition, it is not discrimination to have rules about different elements for different levels or types of competitions, or to suggest that rules should change. Was it discrimination against skaters who were good at figures when they got rid of them? Is it discrimination against great spinners than spins are not worth more than jumps? Is it discrimination that there is a TES minimum for Worlds?

Based on some of the stuff I've read in this thread, it is clear that not everyone here is interested in having a discussion about the pros and cons of increasing the age requirement, which is why I see so many irrational attacks and assertions being thrown around. "Discrimination." Please.

Wrestling and boxing are very different sports to figure skating, they are contact sports for a start.
Your other scenarios don't make sense in the context either.

It is age and body discrimination to want to raise the senior age because of reasons like:
1. Not liking seeing "little girls" winning
2. Because of the perception skating needs "adult womanly beauty" and sexualisation.
3. The idea that these young girls get their medals and then disappear. That this somehow lessens their achievements because they haven't had a long career.

 

[neud]

gkelly, I think at least JGP and JWC competitors shouldn't be discriminated by such things (-ChSq, -3A and compulsory jump in SP) and should have the equal rights with Seniors.

 

[Mishaminion]

I think at least JGP and JWC competitors shouldn't be discriminated by such things (-ChSq, -3A in SP) and should have the equal rights with Seniors.

I do think 3A instead of 2A in the SP should be a thing, I don't see why it shouldn't be. It is allowed in the free, so you can't argue it is not permitted because it gives an unfair advantage.

The recent explosion in quads and 3A began in Juniors, having more technical difficulty than seniors before the skaters are able to move up.
The raise the age limit argument is nothing more than a way to stop the technical progress of these young girls because on reaching senior level they can already beat older skaters.

 

[andromache]

Wrestling and boxing are very different sports to figure skating, they are contact sports for a start.
Your other scenarios don't make sense in the context either.

It is age and body discrimination to want to raise the senior age because of reasons like:
1. Not liking seeing "little girls" winning
2. Because of the perception skating needs "adult womanly beauty" and sexualisation.
3. The idea that these young girls get their medals and then disappear. That this somehow lessens their achievements because they haven't had a long career.

Short versus long careers have nothing to do with "body discrimination."

As for 1. and 2. - I haven't seen anyone seriously suggest those are GOOD reasons to raise the age limit.

 

[andromache]

gkelly, I think at least JGP and JWC competitors shouldn't be discriminated by such things (-ChSq, -3A and compulsory jump in SP) and should have the equal rights with Seniors.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand how the different competitive levels work. Junior and senior standards are UNIVERSAL regardless of what competition you are at, and beginning to make exceptions to those standards will just be ridiculously confusing.

 

[Mishaminion]

Short versus long careers have nothing to do with "body discrimination."

As for 1. and 2. - I haven't seen anyone seriously suggest those are GOOD reasons to raise the age limit.

Read back in the thread, those suggestions are there.

The short career is not discrimination as such but it is disrespectful to think being young makes their achievements worth less.

 

[el henry]

Wrestling and boxing are very different sports to figure skating, they are contact sports for a start.
Your other scenarios don't make sense in the context either.

It is age and body discrimination to want to raise the senior age because of reasons like:
1. Not liking seeing "little girls" winning
2. Because of the perception skating needs "adult womanly beauty" and sexualisation.
3. The idea that these young girls get their medals and then disappear. That this somehow lessens their achievements because they haven't had a long career.

Then I would be interested in what you would say to the many posters who have made arguments based on wanting long term studies about health and training. Like me

I don’t care about little girls or sexualization. Never made those arguments, never will most of the posters I’ve seen here have not made them either.

I do care about long careers. Because it means the skater is healthy and enjoys skating :agree: and it means I get to enjoy their skating for as long as possible:agree:

 

[Shayuki]

Several people in this thread seem to be confusing "discrimination" with "rules and regulations." All sports are governed by particular rules and regulations. These rules do not necessarily equate to "discrimination." For example, competitive wrestling (not pro wrestling) has divisions that are divided by weight. That is not "body discrimination" - it is a rule that serves a purpose. The major sports league in the US - MLB, NFL, NBA - all have age limits. Internationally, there are minimum age restrictions in FIFA.

Why are you comparing multiplayer contact sports to a solo sport like figure skating? Obviously you can't have a 13-year-old kid going to an NHL game as he'd get killed. However, junior rinks and senior rinks are both the same, and the skater's in both alone. Do you think Chess tournaments ban competitors from entering just because they're young, for example?

The important thing to consider is when skaters actually peak. To me, it's completely against the nature of sports itself to ban athletes from competing when they'd be in their prime and at their strongest. That makes no sense.

 

[andromache]

Why are you comparing multiplayer contact sports to a solo sport like figure skating? Obviously you can't have a 13-year-old kid going to an NHL game as he'd get killed. However, junior rinks and senior rinks are both the same, and the skater's in both alone. Do you think Chess tournaments ban competitors from entering just because they're young, for example?

There are age limits in non-contact sports as well.

There are age limits that already exist in figure skating, btw. If you think there should be no age limit at all, then you can argue that.

 

[andromache]

Read back in the thread, those suggestions are there.

The short career is not discrimination as such but it is disrespectful to think being young makes their achievements worth less.

People have all sorts of different measurements of achievement. Longevity is an achievement, so is an Olympic gold medal. Some people are lucky enough to have both.

 

[neud]

People have all sorts of different measurements of achievement. Longevity is an achievement, so is an Olympic gold medal. Some people are lucky enough to have both.

Figure skaters do not compete in longevity, they compete in SP and FS.
Longevity is just what some fans wants for their favorites.

 

[Bcash]

From a purely enjoyment perspective, I just find skinny little girls jumping around to be of little appeal in a sport like this. Which is why I've not felt pulled into this discipline at all post-Yuna Kim era. Occasionally you have a young skater with unusual maturity in style and physical control like Kostarnaia but that's very rare.

I don't think the current state of affairs helps draw in more audience, but then that's maybe an ulterior concern.

 

[neud]

From a purely enjoyment perspective, I just find skinny little girls jumping around to be of little appeal in a sport like this.

Why don't you just follow Adult Figure Skating Competitions then?

 

[gkelly]

The important thing to consider is when skaters actually peak. To me, it's completely against the nature of sports itself to ban athletes from competing when they'd be in their prime and at their strongest. That makes no sense.

It happens that female skaters' jumping ability tends to peak in early to mid teens, but skating ability tends to peak in late teens to mid-20s. (And performance ability might peak even later than that, but that's what show skating is for.)

So the question is whether top-level women's singles events should favor peak jumping with still-developing skating, or peak skating skills with past-peak (hopefully plateaued and not already downsliding) jumping skills.

Or can the point-earning opportunities in each program or competition be balanced so that different skaters can use different strategies to maximize their points based on their own individual strengths, which might change for any individual skater over the course of her career.

The same question is relevant to men's singles except that for anatomical reasons, on average men's skating skill and jumping skill tend to progress more in synch with each other than in the women's event.

Yes, many of the best young female jumpers are also excellent skaters and can easily outscore older senior ladies who are merely above average. However, if those young jumpers have the opportunity to continue their careers they can achieve even more than they already have in blade-to-ice skills.


Out of curiosity, I never remember exactly what the Season's Best and World Ranking lists are used for. For what purposes do skaters purely on the junior circuit need to compete against skaters on the senior circuit for placements. Grand Prix assignments for the next season? What else?

 

[Mishaminion]

There are age limits in non-contact sports as well.

There are age limits that already exist in figure skating, btw. If you think there should be no age limit at all, then you can argue that.

I would argue there is nothing wrong with the present limit. It's only an issue to people who dislike girls at the lower end of that age limit winning.

 

[Mishaminion]

From a purely enjoyment perspective, I just find skinny little girls jumping around to be of little appeal in a sport like this. Which is why I've not felt pulled into this discipline at all post-Yuna Kim era. Occasionally you have a young skater with unusual maturity in style and physical control like Kostarnaia but that's very rare.

I don't think the current state of affairs helps draw in more audience, but then that's maybe an ulterior concern.

Now that is the discrimination, supporting an age limit because you personally don't like seeing "skinny little girls jump"

Maturity is not a prerequisite in figure skating, you do not need to be a "mature womanly woman" to compete.

 

[moriel]

Now that is the discrimination, supporting an age limit because you personally don't like seeing "skinny little girls jump"

Maturity is not a prerequisite in figure skating, you do not need to be a "mature womanly woman" to compete.

OHHHH yeah, i think Finlandia trophy was great in that regard. Because we literally had a skinny litle girl with top notch artistry vs mature jumping beam.

 

[Bcash]

Why don't you just follow Adult Figure Skating Competitions then?

Because there are the Men's, the Pairs and the Ice Dance disciplines to follow which offer much more exciting, beautiful AND technically challenging skating than the current ladies field. When you watch the other three disciplines you at least feel (and know) you are watching fully physically developed adults. And there are the glory days of Ladies skating to revisit.

 

[Bcash]

Now that is the discrimination, supporting an age limit because you personally don't like seeing "skinny little girls jump"

Maturity is not a prerequisite in figure skating, you do not need to be a "mature womanly woman" to compete.

I didn't say maturity is a prerequisite. I said, to enjoy.
Anyway, I don't care about the current ladies skating enough to get too deep into a hypothetical discussion. Just pointing out that it's quite unattractive as it is.