Senior Ladies Need To Up The Age Requirement

[Happy Skates]

It turns out even on a desktop I don't know how to link to a previous post. Oh well It's Post 204 on page 11.

And I'm not really looking to change anyone's mind, because I won't. And I'm not saying the studies are there now, I'm saying wait until we have studies.

But as I've said before, I only return because I wouldn't want what is my, and others, honestly held belief to be mislabeled as jealousy, or sexualization, or anything like that.

And now I really will eace: out

Lets say that we did have studies saying that quads negatively affected young girls. Or intense physical activity, or whatever you want to say. I pose the same question. How would changing the age limit change that? Junior competitions still exist. Girls still do the same jumps there, at about the same number of competitions per year. And to be at a high level as an adult, you need to be practicing at that high of a level as a child.

My point is not that you are wrong to be concerned about the health of young girls. My point is that changing the age limit doesn't affect what jumps girls train. So yes, you provided some studies vaguely about the effects of intense physical activity on young girls, but that still does not answer my question, which is how the age limit has anything to do with this. Because the way I see it, the only thing the age limit changes is who is competing against who. And I'm genuinely curious what makes you think otherwise.

 

[readernick]

Lets say that we did have studies saying that quads negatively affected young girls. Or intense physical activity, or whatever you want to say. I pose the same question. How would changing the age limit change that? Junior competitions still exist. Girls still do the same jumps there, at about the same number of competitions per year. And to be at a high level as an adult, you need to be practicing at that high of a level as a child.

My point is not that you are wrong to be concerned about the health of young girls. My point is that changing the age limit doesn't affect what jumps girls train. So yes, you provided some studies vaguely about the effects of intense physical activity on young girls, but that still does not answer my question, which is how the age limit has anything to do with this. Because the way I see it, the only thing the age limit changes is who is competing against who. And I'm genuinely curious what makes you think otherwise.

I can't answer for the original poster. But, I think that the hope is that by changing the age limit it would reduce the speed at which young girls are pressured to learn difficult skills. Thus, reducing the stress on their bodies. I have the same concerns about young men, actually. I think they are also, possibly, ruining their long term health. However, I guess the question is, Would raising the age limit actually change the way coaches deal with their young skaters? Or would they continue to train in the same way? I don't think these are easy questions to answer. Honestly, anytime that young people without fully developed minds and bodies participate in potentially dangerous sports there are many uncomfortable ethical questions that people often don't want to ask because the answers and solutions often aren't clear. However, I think people should ask these questions and more research should be done into the long term effects of coaching methods, age limits, and other variables on the health of athletes.

Because, right now, we are just relying in coaches to train their skaters responsibly and I frankly don't trust any coach from any nation to do so 100% of the time. Are age limits the answer? I don't know.


As for the other reasons listed here for raising age limits, I don't agree with them. ( they are athletes not models, it doesn't matter what their bodies look like) The only other one that is a valid concern ( the dominance of jumping over SS and other PCS categories) would better be addressed by having a separate judging panel for PCS. So health is the only valid concern as the previous poster mentioned... is it the best way to deal with that concern...I don't know... no one does because the age limit hasn't been increased and thus it's effects can't be measured.

 

[Shayuki]

It turns out even on a desktop I don't know how to link to a previous post. Oh well It's Post 204 on page 11.

And I'm not really looking to change anyone's mind, because I won't. And I'm not saying the studies are there now, I'm saying wait until we have studies.

But as I've said before, I only return because I wouldn't want what is my, and others, honestly held belief to be mislabeled as jealousy, or sexualization, or anything like that.

And now I really will eace: out

Let's hypothetically assume that girls jumping quads at a young age is bad for their health. With that presumption, I present this question to you:

How does increasing the age limit for seniors help with that?



I know there's been multiple people asking this question, but seems like you must have missed it all those times. So let's try making it very clear like this.

I can't answer for the original poster. But, I think that the hope is that by changing the age limit it would reduce the speed at which young girls are pressured to learn difficult skills.

So let's say that a new up-and-coming skater enters juniors, and in addition to the current crop, she is also facing Rika Kihira, Anna Shcherbakova, Alexandra Trusova, Alena Kostornaya, You Young with her 3A, and even Alina Zagitova. The question becomes:

Doesn't this girl then need to increase the speed at which she earns difficult skills, rather than decrease it?

After all, against such competition she might not be getting any results without any difficult elements, when she might have been able to had these skaters been in seniors already.



And here's some of my own speculation. If a skater wants to actually maintain their quads past puberty, which would be the case if senior age limit was so high, they'd need to begin training them even earlier. Indeed, that's why I think skaters such as Akatieva and Zhilina are doing them at 11 already - so that they'd maintain them past puberty. As such, my opinion is that an age limit increase would have the complete opposite effect from what's proposed, and I feel like that's quite a logical conclusion.



So now, the real reasons people want increased age limits:

1. They want to look at mature ladies, not little girls
2. They want to look at more artistic presentation
3. They don't want their favorites to be usurped by young flashes-in-the-pan


This entire "concern for young skaters"-angle is just a poorly thought up excuse to make their intentions appear more righteous than they actually are, because it's not logically sound.

 

[colormyworld240]

I can't answer for the original poster. But, I think that the hope is that by changing the age limit it would reduce the speed at which young girls are pressured to learn difficult skills. Thus, reducing the stress on their bodies. I have the same concerns about young men, actually. I think they are also, possibly, ruining their long term health. However, I guess the question is, Would raising the age limit actually change the way coaches deal with their young skaters? Or would they continue to train in the same way? I don't think these are easy questions to answer. Honestly, anytime that young people without fully developed minds and bodies participate in potentially dangerous sports there are many uncomfortable ethical questions that people often don't want to ask because the answers and solutions often aren't clear. However, I think people should ask these questions and more research should be done into the long term effects of coaching methods, age limits, and other variables on the health of athletes.

Because, right now, we are just relying in coaches to train their skaters responsibly and I frankly don't trust any coach from any nation to do so 100% of the time. Are age limits the answer? I don't know.


As for the other reasons listed here for raising age limits, I don't agree with them. ( they are athletes not models, it doesn't matter what their bodies look like) The only other one that is a valid concern ( the dominance of jumping over SS and other PCS categories) would better be addressed by having a separate judging panel for PCS. So health is the only valid concern as the previous poster mentioned... is it the best way to deal with that concern...I don't know... no one does because the age limit hasn't been increased and thus it's effects can't be measured.

That's what I don't understand, where this hope comes from. It may be different for men, I don't know. But with ladies we can look at this:

Ladies who begin to jump 3A/quads as juniors: Miki Ando, Riki Kihira, Alexandra Trusova, Anna Shcherbakova, Alysa Liu, Kamila Valieva (also Alena Kanysheva, Sofia Akatieva, Sofia Samodelkina at domestic events/practice - could be more but this is what I know).

Ladies who begin to jump 3A/quads as seniors: Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, Elizabet Tursynbaeva, You Young, Alena Kostornaia (though there were videos of all 4 training these elements while they were juniors).

So looking at this, the majority of 3As/quads were trained when skaters were juniors (or even before they are of junior eligibility). This would mean that increasing the minimum age of senior competition for the ladies will not prevent them from training 3As and quads. The way to go about this would be to increase the minimum age of junior competition - though that is not guaranteed as we see skaters training these elements even for domestic events as novices. So the only way to prevent this is to ban training of 3As and quads until a certain age but I don't believe this can be done as every skater is training in their own environments. That would leave banning these elements completely from competition to remove the incentive. If the real reason for an age increase is for the health of skaters with respect to training these elements and not another reason, why is this not the proposed solution? That is if these elements are shown to be detrimental to skaters' health.

I get wanting to take action. But it has to be actions that will actually address the problem. I'm having trouble seeing this another way, so if anyone can see what's wrong with the way I've broken this down, feel free to point them out so we can have a productive discussion.

 

[Mishaminion]

Addressing the problem assumes there even is a problem.

The only problem I see is with the viewers not the skaters. This thread popped up right after Trusova won Skate Canada.

The backlash can be nothing more than an attempt to stop her and others like her winning, sometimes masked by a "but I am only concerned for their health" argument.

Some others are honest and say they don't want to see "little skinny girls" winning, which is their opinion and they're entitled to it.

 

[[email protected]]

I can't answer for the original poster. But, I think that the hope is that by changing the age limit it would reduce the speed at which young girls are pressured to learn difficult skills. Thus, reducing the stress on their bodies.

Are they truly pressured to get ready for senior competitions or it's a joint conscious decision where various adults are involved, the decision that takes into account the presence of a vast array of junior competitions including junior worlds?

Even if all negativity is true and post-puberty girls are going to lose quads in 90% of cases raising the age limit to 18 will kill the sport - people will just watch "true" junior competitions. And if only one of skaters keep the quads after puberty she will be so dominant that it would be even less sense to watch.

 

[Shayuki]

Are they truly pressured to get ready for senior competitions or it's a joint conscious decision where various adults are involved, the decision that takes into account the presence of a vast array of junior competitions including junior worlds?

Well, at least the group's said that they actually refuse to teach quads if they feel like the skater's afraid of them or isn't ready for them. Actually, they've also literally said that even if a skater isn't up for doing quads, they'll try and maximize their potential in other ways. That sounds like the very opposite of pressuring to me.

On the other hand, Plushenko for example has pressured his skaters such as Tarakanova into doing quads. No surprise that Plushenko's Academy took a nosedive and now just about every skater avoids it. No surprise that Tarakanova didn't learn the quads while being pressured, either.

 

[Mishaminion]

Are they truly pressured to get ready for senior competitions or it's a joint conscious decision where various adults are involved, the decision that takes into account the presence of a vast array of junior competitions including junior worlds?

Even if all negativity is true and post-puberty girls are going to lose quads in 90% of cases raising the age limit to 18 will kill the sport - people will just watch "true" junior competitions. And if only one of skaters keep the quads after puberty she will be so dominant that it would be even less sense to watch.

Exactly, totally agree.

Unless quads and 3A were banned in Juniors, skaters will learn and do them anyway in Junior competition.

Raising the age limit won't help, apart from keeping the "jumping beans" down in Juniors and the "mature women" on the podiums in seniors. Which is probably the real reason for the "change the age rules!" argument, no matter what concern it is disguised as.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

It turns out even on a desktop I don't know how to link to a previous post. Oh well It's Post 204 on page 11.

And I'm not really looking to change anyone's mind, because I won't. And I'm not saying the studies are there now, I'm saying wait until we have studies.

We have enough informations to come out with some conclusions tho. Miki Ando was training and jumping quads and how many injuries she had during her career? Yuna Kim had much more injuries, as the others who have rarely even jumped triple-triple (as Kiira Korpi). Syria Bonaly who was jumping quad and back flips, how many injuries she had comparing to the others she competed with? Girl who is jumping the most quads these days, Sasha Trusova, how many injuries she has comparing to the others of her age? The only variable/factor in corelation with skating injuries i can find is years of being involved in the sport, and even that corelation is not that big. Jumping doubles, triples or quads has nothing to do with it, directly.

 

[lariko]

Addressing the problem assumes there even is a problem.

The only problem I see is with the viewers not the skaters. This thread popped up right after Trusova won Skate Canada.

The backlash can be nothing more than an attempt to stop her and others like her winning, sometimes masked by a "but I am only concerned for their health" argument.

Some others are honest and say they don't want to see "little skinny girls" winning, which is their opinion and they're entitled to it.

That what boggles my mind. Tursynbayeva lands one, nobody objects. Valieva and Liu land them, nobody objects. Scherbakova lands two, nobody objects.

But Trusova lands three... and there is a sudden concern? Trusova loves jumping, she says so every time she is interviewed. She likes challenging men to jump offs. The height of her jumps vs her height is nothing short of amazing. She is a vibrant tomboy with I dunno how many brothers. And there is no such pro athlete who in their heart of hearts doesn’t think that anything but gold is losing.

As far as I am concerned she is as lovable as they come. Let her shine while she will. If people would have meanness in them to want for her to fail, or cheer if she doesn’t finish the season well... honestly, the fault is in them, not her.

Longevity in sport, any sport, is also a valuable quality and some athletes have staying power, and the others don’t. It’s not correlated with their top achievements.

You make flexibility and spirals a winning ticket? You’ll have the Russians scouring the width and breadth of Siberia for the wee kids who could do that. Basketball or hockey look for heavy-set, tall ladies. Figure skating coaches look for small frames.

Boobs are on display in Hooters for those who trip on that.

You want to watch dancing, well, synchro & ice dance are there for you & insist with ISU to push for single ID discipline... then, when nobody is watching it... nevermind.

 

[Mishaminion]

Boobs are on display in Hooters for those who trip on that.

Lol!

Thankyou for the giggle.

In general many female athletes have that more athletic figure with smaller boobs/less curves, track and field athletes for example...although on the flip side many female athletes are also bullied because they don't look womanly enough. It is very unfair.

One thing I would change, regardless of age, is costuming...a bit more coverage beneath the skirt. When I see a lady skater of any age lift their leg up and present their only thinly covered crotches to anyone watching, it is distracting.

I hated Shizuka Arakawa's and Sasha Cohen's spirals especially because instead of thinking "Wow amazing!" It was more like "Argh get your crotch out of my face!" and wondering if they have to wax!

Gah

 

[lariko]

Never really bothered me since I was swimming all my life pretty much, but I just prefer bodysuits on lady skaters b/c of the full line without breaking it with skirts. But I’m also not gonna be advocating for all skaters to wear pants.

In most sports female athletes have to keep the body fat at the level that is far lower than when the body is comfortable enough to start padding the bosom. In respect to the lower body fat, it is probably safer to have the teens to compete vs ladies in their late twenties, because to be in —how did Russian Fed elegantly put it?— physical form necessary to achieve the desired athletic goals— they will have to either double-down on the genetic lottery jackpot, or have complex nutritional approaches to avoid undesirable starvation diets.

 

[Mishaminion]

Never really bothered me since I was swimming all my life pretty much, but I just prefer bodysuits on lady skaters b/c of the full line without breaking it with skirts. But I’m also not gonna be advocating for all skaters to wear pants.

Oh I'm not advocating such a change, just saying if I had the power to change rules I'd do it

 

[ancientpeas]

On a personal level:

I was jumping (on horseback) 6 foot plus jumps (taller than I was) at age 9 and doing cross country jumping (longer distance courses with jumps). I fell, I got hurt, I got smashed head first into a stone jump when I was 10ish. I was kicked, stepped on, bitten, thrown. I bled and I was often bruised. And I loved every single moment of it. Until I was dragged by a spooked horse (sweet baby, not her fault) combined with my mother being very seriously ill and I lost my nerve there was nothing anyone could have done to stop me from being on a horse. My parents could have refused to pay for it but I would have been miserable and it was great love and my obsession. If any of these young women were like I was (and I assume most of them are actually more driven than I was) then trying to get them to stop doing triples and quads is going to be impossible. The best you can do is try and teach them to do it sensibly and protect them by using the right safety equipment.

Again I go back to judges. Judges need to judge the sport fairly. When they do not reward sophistication and artistry, musicality and interpretation then it does become a jumping competition and it will be almost impossible for older skaters to keep up. If PCS is judged more accurately there should be more balance within the sport and some of these issues will balance out. It is exceedingly rare to find a 15 or 16 year old with the artistic skills of someone with several seasons under their belt.

 

[lariko]

Oh I'm not advocating such a change, just saying if I had the power to change rules I'd do it

Fair enough. The skaters have a say in the design of the outfit as far as I know, so I think they can chose darker tights, bodysuit and shorts (which Trusova seems to prefer by the look of it btw).

People who are predisposed to using sport to satisfy their repressed sexual drive, would drool over whatever, because the bobsleigh teams managed to attract that kind of attention last Olympics with full coverage.

Honestly, i’d be happy with black pants and white tee shirts simply because costuming is pricey and in some cases, well, that white tee shirt would have been an improvement.

 

[ancientpeas]

I really enjoy the costuming aspect of skating. It adds to the theater aspect of it. I would not want to see skaters have to skate in a uniform or just in work out gear. Maybe at lower levels but by the time they are competing at the senior level I want to see them in costumes.

If I had a young child (under 16) competing in skating I would want them to dress modestly when competing because I believe it is inappropriate to force young people to be seen as sexual objects before they are ready for the emotional repercussions of that. I would also not want them to skate to certain pieces of music. I believe it is a parents job to safeguard their children and not force them into maturity before they are ready to handle it.

However that is a very controversial subject and not really the topic of this thread. We have tried to have discussions about this type of topic and it rarely goes well as some people have very different opinions on what is acceptable and it tends to lead to arguments.

 

[Arbitrary]

That what boggles my mind. Tursynbayeva lands one, nobody objects. Valieva and Liu land them, nobody objects. Scherbakova lands two, nobody objects.

But Trusova lands three... and there is a sudden concern? Trusova loves jumping, she says so every time she is interviewed. She likes challenging men to jump offs. The height of her jumps vs her height is nothing short of amazing. She is a vibrant tomboy with I dunno how many brothers. And there is no such pro athlete who in their heart of hearts doesn’t think that anything but gold is losing.

As far as I am concerned she is as lovable as they come. Let her shine while she will. If people would have meanness in them to want for her to fail, or cheer if she doesn’t finish the season well... honestly, the fault is in them, not her.

Longevity in sport, any sport, is also a valuable quality and some athletes have staying power, and the others don’t. It’s not correlated with their top achievements.

You make flexibility and spirals a winning ticket? You’ll have the Russians scouring the width and breadth of Siberia for the wee kids who could do that. Basketball or hockey look for heavy-set, tall ladies. Figure skating coaches look for small frames.

Boobs are on display in Hooters for those who trip on that.

You want to watch dancing, well, synchro & ice dance are there for you & insist with ISU to push for single ID discipline... then, when nobody is watching it... nevermind.

Exactly when Trusova lands three and dares to attempt four. And promises to think for the 4F and trixel.

Completely unfair, as with only two quads and without the trixel she's still in the same league with others.
Four quads (and ask the Lord to save us from her trixel) renders her untouchable for time being...

 

[lariko]

I can’t say I support anyone of any age or gender being treated as a sex object, particularly when they are already performing at a level of one out of millions of humans. I’m aware that colours and shiny things do draw the eye, and help them, but well, i’m sure we’ve all seen incredible music and beautiful/bright costumes leaving the audience cold without the charisma and skill. It is certainly a fascinating topic & as divisive as PCS

 

[lariko]

Trusova is not doing anything that Nathan had not done. Yet, Nathan is King of Quads, and we hear no end of him being in Yale, and no one commented that Nathan is a kid with gray hair before he is 20, nobody asked to raise the age of men’s entries, ‘cause, you know, Voronov isn’t keeping up.

 

[Penny]

I believe Tara left skating because of hip injuries.