What will happen to the three World spots Kazakhstan has in ladies?

[TontoK]

Actually, the fact that Russia (or any other team) can still send three representatives is an anomaly in major sports nowadays.

Many sports limit participation to two per country per event... swimming is an example... or limit advancement to the medal round to two per country... gymnastics is an example of this.

Under current rules, the possibility of a medal sweep exists in figure skating. It can't happen in other sports.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Actually, the fact that Russia (or any other team) can still send three representatives is an anomaly in major sports nowadays.

Many sports limit participation to two per country per event... swimming is an example... or limit advancement to the medal round to two per country... gymnastics is an example of this.

Under current rules, the possibility of a medal sweep exists in figure skating. It can't happen in other sports.

In most of the other individual sports I follow, each country is allowed to send four representatives to the Major Championships. That's why I always thought it wasn't fair that countries could only send three in figure skating. But two is just ridiculously low.

I'm genuinely shocked to hear this happens in some sports. I can't even imagine what it must be like for the athletes to be faced with that. So much pressure on them to perform.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

In most of the other individual sports I follow, each country is allowed to send four representatives to the Major Championships. That's why I always thought it wasn't fair that countries could only send three in figure skating. But two is just ridiculously low.

I'm genuinely shocked to hear this happens in some sports. I can't even imagine what it must be like for the athletes to be faced with that. So much pressure on them to perform.

CaroLiza_fan

I know for tennis this is common. And athletics tends to have potential podium sweeps.

It really makes sense though to have a limited number of spots per country. Think about the popularity and accessibility of sports in certain countries versus others. If sports seek to truly gain global appeal, monopolizing the podium is not a way to do that.

Some sports are particularly brutal about it. e.g. In curling, 9 out of the top 16 men's teams in the World are from Canada, however only 1 is allowed to go represent Canada at the World Championships or Olympics.

I strongly disagree that more Worlds spots should go to Russia or USA or any of the other countries who have a set number of spots according to the rules. It is far better served to go to nations where skating needs more recognition/development.

I mean... skaters are welcome to switch feds if they feel their own feds are too competitive. I hear Canada's looking!

 

[Skater Boy]

Khaza. gets to choose what it does; these spots cannot be redistributed nor should they I guess. ET earned the three spots fair and square; arguably it is the strategy that tthe tke spots away from other countries improving their chance to win a medal.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I know for tennis this is common. And athletics tends to have potential podium sweeps.

It really makes sense though to have a limited number of spots per country. Think about the popularity and accessibility of sports in certain countries versus others. If sports seek to truly gain global appeal, monopolizing the podium is not a way to do that.

Some sports are particularly brutal about it. e.g. In curling, 9 out of the top 16 men's teams in the World are from Canada, however only 1 is allowed to go represent Canada at the World Championships or Olympics.

I strongly disagree that more Worlds spots should go to Russia or USA or any of the other countries who have a set number of spots according to the rules. It is far better served to go to nations where skating needs more recognition/development.

Thank you for your explanation.

I should probably explain that I am looking at this from the persepctive of somebody who, generally speaking, does not follow summer sports. There are only 2 summer sports that I would take an interest in, and they are both team sports (women's football, and netball. Although, I am starting to lose interest in the football). So, I don't know anything about how the quotas work in individual summer sports.

In terms of winter sports, I follow figure skating and ski sports (Alpine Skiing, Nordic Skiing and Biathlon. None of this Freestyle stuff for me). And it was on the ski sports that I was basing my comment. For their Major Championships, each country can enter 4 athletes. And that is including the Olympics.

My main love is motorsports. But, they don't have quotas based on country. And it is all the better for it! (Although, it is starting to creep in through the back door, with the promotors getting involved with arranging deals for certain people in order to get more nationalities on the grid. And I strongly do not agree with this interference).

I do agree that there needs to be some sort of way of managing the number of participants taking part in figure skating competitions. Because once you get more than 32 entries, the segments do drag. But, I do feel that the current system works pretty well. Especially the part of having minimum TES regulating the quality of the field.

That said, the way the minimum TES is set urgently needs looking at. Because it is getting to the stage in some categories (yes, I mean Pairs) that it is nigh-on impossible for skaters from smaller Feds to meet them. And when coupled with the quota system, this means the number of entries at the Major Championships is lower than anybody would like. As you say, if we want the sport to grow in popularity around the world, we need to have skaters from smaller Feds taking part in the Majors.

The only tweaks I would make to the current system are that I would simplify the rules so that any country can have up to 3 entries per category, so long as they met the minimum TES requirements. And that the reigning champion is an additional entry that does not count towards their country's quota.

Both of these suggestions are taken straight from the ski sports that I follow, and are used in all their Major Championships (the Olympics do not have an additional slot for the reigning champion, though). The difference being that in ski sports the maximum quota is 4 rather than 3.

On balance, I do feel that a maximum number of 3 entries per country in the Major Championships is probably the right number. 2 entries are too few, and 4 entries is probably too many. But, this should be uniform across all sports. Because it is not fair that when we come together for multi-sport events, there are different quota systems in use in the same event. And that is before we even consider that it makes things mighty confusing for the fans.

And you all know how I feel about the citizenship requirement at the Olympics. It shouldn't be there. The other Major Championships work perfectly well without it, so why do the Olympics need it?

I mean... skaters are welcome to switch feds if they feel their own feds are too competitive. I hear Canada's looking!

Same in these islands!

CaroLiza_fan

 

[DSQ]

I read somewhere that a big reason they brought in the minimum TES was because Worlds and Euros we’re getting too long.

 

[TontoK]

I read somewhere that a big reason they brought in the minimum TES was because Worlds and Euros we’re getting too long.

There are something like 90 members of the ISU.

So, if every federation were allowed even one single entry into all the events, think about how difficult that would be to run a world championship.

So, every member is allotted a minimum of one spot, provided they have an entry that can meet the technical minimums.

Morocco (for example) can enter an ice dance team at the World Championships because they are a member federation... but only if that team meets the technical minimum.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Thank you for your explanation.

I should probably explain that I am looking at this from the persepctive of somebody who, generally speaking, does not follow summer sports. There are only 2 summer sports that I would take an interest in, and they are both team sports (women's football, and netball. Although, I am starting to lose interest in the football). So, I don't know anything about how the quotas work in individual summer sports.

In terms of winter sports, I follow figure skating and ski sports (Alpine Skiing, Nordic Skiing and Biathlon. None of this Freestyle stuff for me). And it was on the ski sports that I was basing my comment. For their Major Championships, each country can enter 4 athletes. And that is including the Olympics.

My main love is motorsports. But, they don't have quotas based on country. And it is all the better for it! (Although, it is starting to creep in through the back door, with the promotors getting involved with arranging deals for certain people in order to get more nationalities on the grid. And I strongly do not agree with this interference).

I do agree that there needs to be some sort of way of managing the number of participants taking part in figure skating competitions. Because once you get more than 32 entries, the segments do drag. But, I do feel that the current system works pretty well. Especially the part of having minimum TES regulating the quality of the field.

That said, the way the minimum TES is set urgently needs looking at. Because it is getting to the stage in some categories (yes, I mean Pairs) that it is nigh-on impossible for skaters from smaller Feds to meet them. And when coupled with the quota system, this means the number of entries at the Major Championships is lower than anybody would like. As you say, if we want the sport to grow in popularity around the world, we need to have skaters from smaller Feds taking part in the Majors.

The only tweaks I would make to the current system are that I would simplify the rules so that any country can have up to 3 entries per category, so long as they met the minimum TES requirements. And that the reigning champion is an additional entry that does not count towards their country's quota.

Both of these suggestions are taken straight from the ski sports that I follow, and are used in all their Major Championships (the Olympics do not have an additional slot for the reigning champion, though). The difference being that in ski sports the maximum quota is 4 rather than 3.

On balance, I do feel that a maximum number of 3 entries per country in the Major Championships is probably the right number. 2 entries are too few, and 4 entries is probably too many. But, this should be uniform across all sports. Because it is not fair that when we come together for multi-sport events, there are different quota systems in use in the same event. And that is before we even consider that it makes things mighty confusing for the fans.

And you all know how I feel about the citizenship requirement at the Olympics. It shouldn't be there. The other Major Championships work perfectly well without it, so why do the Olympics need it?



Same in these islands!

CaroLiza_fan

The difference to consider is that these sports take far less time for a single competitor to compete versus figure skating, and the propensity for a sweep is far less likely (even though some nations are clearly more dominant than others). e.g. The giant slalom in Pyeongchang 2018 had 110 competitors each competing about 2-3 minutes in 2 collective runs. A figure skater however has a total of about 7 minutes, plus judging, plus warmups, plus floods. Hence you could only get a max of about 40 skaters in a competition (and most competitions are much lower). If skater were longer, I could imagine competitions that weren't restricted by number of entries per nation (or was something like 4), but it would be difficult. Especially in a judged sport. There's already controversies surrounding major countries monopolizing the podium and lesser countries thus not having as much motivation. It's enough that Russia is slated to sweep the podium in ladies -- they don't need a 4th or 5th entry to hedge their bets even further.

 

[ladyjane]

Thank you for your explanation.

I should probably explain that I am looking at this from the persepctive of somebody who, generally speaking, does not follow summer sports. There are only 2 summer sports that I would take an interest in, and they are both team sports (women's football, and netball. Although, I am starting to lose interest in the football). So, I don't know anything about how the quotas work in individual summer sports.

In terms of winter sports, I follow figure skating and ski sports (Alpine Skiing, Nordic Skiing and Biathlon. None of this Freestyle stuff for me). And it was on the ski sports that I was basing my comment. For their Major Championships, each country can enter 4 athletes. And that is including the Olympics.

My main love is motorsports. But, they don't have quotas based on country. And it is all the better for it! (Although, it is starting to creep in through the back door, with the promotors getting involved with arranging deals for certain people in order to get more nationalities on the grid. And I strongly do not agree with this interference).

I do agree that there needs to be some sort of way of managing the number of participants taking part in figure skating competitions. Because once you get more than 32 entries, the segments do drag. But, I do feel that the current system works pretty well. Especially the part of having minimum TES regulating the quality of the field.

That said, the way the minimum TES is set urgently needs looking at. Because it is getting to the stage in some categories (yes, I mean Pairs) that it is nigh-on impossible for skaters from smaller Feds to meet them. And when coupled with the quota system, this means the number of entries at the Major Championships is lower than anybody would like. As you say, if we want the sport to grow in popularity around the world, we need to have skaters from smaller Feds taking part in the Majors.

The only tweaks I would make to the current system are that I would simplify the rules so that any country can have up to 3 entries per category, so long as they met the minimum TES requirements. And that the reigning champion is an additional entry that does not count towards their country's quota.

Both of these suggestions are taken straight from the ski sports that I follow, and are used in all their Major Championships (the Olympics do not have an additional slot for the reigning champion, though). The difference being that in ski sports the maximum quota is 4 rather than 3.

On balance, I do feel that a maximum number of 3 entries per country in the Major Championships is probably the right number. 2 entries are too few, and 4 entries is probably too many. But, this should be uniform across all sports. Because it is not fair that when we come together for multi-sport events, there are different quota systems in use in the same event. And that is before we even consider that it makes things mighty confusing for the fans.

And you all know how I feel about the citizenship requirement at the Olympics. It shouldn't be there. The other Major Championships work perfectly well without it, so why do the Olympics need it?



Same in these islands!

CaroLiza_fan

Let's just say I'm pretty pleased there is the minimum TES, and no longer qualifying rounds. Those really were boring as you would see the FS of the eventual 24 twice. Well, except for those who would do a different FS at the qualifying round. And, yes, the notion of letting the reigning champion compete regardless of filled quota is very appealing.

And, even in pairs, a pair from our country with a small Fed (a small one in figure skating, big one in speed skating) has managed to get the TES for Euros this year, and they're pretty close to getting the TES for Worlds. It really is possible, even for pairs. Needless to say, even if they end last, I'm just so happy to see a Dutch Pair team on the international scene!

 

[lzxnl]

I think having a minimum TES makes perfect sense. They're championship events, and having too much of a spread of ability at the competition turns people off watching the weaker skaters. I know for sure that I wouldn't want to watch a group of men at Worlds that don't even have triples up to 3Lz. They're just not going to be remotely competitive.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

The difference to consider is that these sports take far less time for a single competitor to compete versus figure skating, and the propensity for a sweep is far less likely (even though some nations are clearly more dominant than others). e.g. The giant slalom in Pyeongchang 2018 had 110 competitors each competing about 2-3 minutes in 2 collective runs. A figure skater however has a total of about 7 minutes, plus judging, plus warmups, plus floods. Hence you could only get a max of about 40 skaters in a competition (and most competitions are much lower). If skater were longer, I could imagine competitions that weren't restricted by number of entries per nation (or was something like 4), but it would be difficult. Especially in a judged sport. There's already controversies surrounding major countries monopolizing the podium and lesser countries thus not having as much motivation. It's enough that Russia is slated to sweep the podium in ladies -- they don't need a 4th or 5th entry to hedge their bets even further.

Oh, don't worry, I agree with you that there is such as thing as competitions being too long. As I said 2 paragraphs after the paragraph you highlighted, once you get over 32 entries, the segments do drag. And you do have a good point about the difference in how long each competitor is actually getting their moment in the spotlight between skating and skiing.

That was why I concluded that 4 entries per country would be too many, and that 3 was the perfect number.

It is more the way that the current quota system combined with the minimum TES requirements is keeping down the numbers being able to compete in Pairs competitions that I am concerned about. And why I believe that the way the minimum TES is calculated needs to be revised (I certainly do not think that minimum TES requirements should be removed completely, as they do a great job at regulating the fields in Singles skating in particular).

Let's just say I'm pretty pleased there is the minimum TES, and no longer qualifying rounds. Those really were boring as you would see the FS of the eventual 24 twice. Well, except for those who would do a different FS at the qualifying round. And, yes, the notion of letting the reigning champion compete regardless of filled quota is very appealing.

And, even in pairs, a pair from our country with a small Fed (a small one in figure skating, big one in speed skating) has managed to get the TES for Euros this year, and they're pretty close to getting the TES for Worlds. It really is possible, even for pairs. Needless to say, even if they end last, I'm just so happy to see a Dutch Pair team on the international scene!

And that is exactly why I think that the way that the minimum TES is calculated needs to be revised, because I love seeing skaters from smaller Feds competing on the big stage. And I love seeing Pairs competitions with big fields. Like you, I don't care if they finish last. I just like them to get the opportunity. As the old saying that a lot of people on here forget goes, "it's not the winning that counts, it's the taking part".

As I said, the fields do need regulating, and on the whole having a minimum TES is a good way of doing it. But, there is something not quite right with the balance of the system when the fields are being kept artificially low, as is happening in Pairs.

In Four Continents, every country can have 3 entries so long as those skaters meet the minimum TES requirements. So, I can't see why the same system can't be applied in the other Major Championships. It would certainly help the Pairs competitions, and possibly Ice Dance as well.

But, as I keep saying, it is how the minimum TES is calculated for Pairs in particular that needs looking at.

I think having a minimum TES makes perfect sense. They're championship events, and having too much of a spread of ability at the competition turns people off watching the weaker skaters. I know for sure that I wouldn't want to watch a group of men at Worlds that don't even have triples up to 3Lz. They're just not going to be remotely competitive.

Whilst I agree with you about the need to have minimum TES's to regulate the field, I do not agree that watching weaker skaters turns people off. I for one like to see lower level skaters from small Feds and see how they are developing and progressing. As I just said, it's not the winning that counts, it's the taking part. And through watching the Junior GP Series, it has been noticable that the lowest ability skaters are often the happiest when they come off the ice. And it is really heartwarming to see this - skaters that are not worried about results but just love doing what they are doing.

We want to see figure skating growing in parts of the world that are outside it's traditional heartland. And there is no better way than for kids to be inspired to take up the sport than to see skaters with a similar background competing on the big stage.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[DenissVFan]

The minimum TES for Worlds has been raised for ladies, which means that ISU wants to lower the number of competitors rather than increase it.

 

[gkelly]

The simplest solution for the pairs issue would be to set a low enough minimum tech score that any credible senior pair should be able to meet it. Base values for double twists, double throws and side-by-side jumps, let's say level 1 on the leveled elements -- assume 0 GOE, which allows for some mistakes if the team can also earn +GOE on other elements and/or include some harder elements.

And then allow up to 3 pairs per member federation at Europeans as well as at 4Cs.

No need to change the rules for other disciplines to solve the problem of low numbers in the hardest discipline in which to field entries.

Worlds can accommodate approximately twice as many federations as Euros or 4Cs, so low minimum TES and also allowing 3 entries per federation would probably make the fields too large, especially because pairs require smaller warmup groups and therefore more time allotted for warmups and resurfaces. Would it be better to keep the Worlds field manageable through higher minimum TES than at Euros/4Cs or by allowing only one team per federation, aside from second and third slots earned by last year's results? Both are already the case.

Because warmup groups for singles are 6 skaters, if there's going to be a numerical cap on SP entries (as at the Olympics), it should be 30 or 36.

 

[Harriet]

In Four Continents, every country can have 3 entries so long as those skaters meet the minimum TES requirements. So, I can't see why the same system can't be applied in the other Major Championships. It would certainly help the Pairs competitions, and possibly Ice Dance as well.

The rules were set differently for FCCs specifically because it serves a lot of small Feds with small fields that the ISU wants to see develop. If the same were to apply at Europeans and Worlds some segments might end up being eight hours long, given how many countries with reasonably developed fields there are! But I do agree that allowing Pairs slots at Euros and Worlds to follow FCC rules would be a big help in developing the discipline. I'm not sure Ice Dance needs it at that level though.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

The rules were set differently for FCCs specifically because it serves a lot of small Feds with small fields that the ISU wants to see develop. If the same were to apply at Europeans and Worlds some segments might end up being eight hours long, given how many countries with reasonably developed fields there are! But I do agree that allowing Pairs slots at Euros and Worlds to follow FCC rules would be a big help in developing the discipline. I'm not sure Ice Dance needs it at that level though.

You are probably right that the changes I am suggesting would not be suitable for Singles skating. But, they would certainly work for Pairs.

I'm in 2 minds about Ice Dance. Less than 30 slots at Europeans is disappointing. But, if you lower the TES or increase the quotas for Europeans / 4 Continents to let more in, you also have to take into consideration the effect it would have on the length of the competition at Worlds.

The simplest solution for the pairs issue would be to set a low enough minimum tech score that any credible senior pair should be able to meet it. Base values for double twists, double throws and side-by-side jumps, let's say level 1 on the leveled elements -- assume 0 GOE, which allows for some mistakes if the team can also earn +GOE on other elements and/or include some harder elements.

And then allow up to 3 pairs per member federation at Europeans as well as at 4Cs.

No need to change the rules for other disciplines to solve the problem of low numbers in the hardest discipline in which to field entries.

Sounds like a good plan to me. :agree:

Worlds can accommodate approximately twice as many federations as Euros or 4Cs, so low minimum TES and also allowing 3 entries per federation would probably make the fields too large, especially because pairs require smaller warmup groups and therefore more time allotted for warmups and resurfaces. Would it be better to keep the Worlds field manageable through higher minimum TES than at Euros/4Cs or by allowing only one team per federation, aside from second and third slots earned by last year's results? Both are already the case.

You make a good point. But, I still feel that fewer than 20 Pairs partnerships at Europeans isn't really good enough, when there are more European partnerships than that number actually competing on the Senior circuit (even when you allow for Russia only having 3 slots available for all their partnerships).

Looking at it realistically, not many Feds are actually going to be able to fill 3 Pairs slots. Some might be able to fill one extra slot, but probably not two. So, lowering the TES requirements a bit would not have as dramatic effect on the length of the segments as you fear. Put it like this - I can't see it leading to Pairs suddenly having far more entries than the Singles categories.

And for Worlds, you certainly aren't going to find double the number of European partnerships outside of Europe. 3 for America; 3 for Canada; 3 for China; 1 or 2 for Australia; probably just 1 for Japan; are there any for South Korea?; anywhere else?

Because warmup groups for singles are 6 skaters, if there's going to be a numerical cap on SP entries (as at the Olympics), it should be 30 or 36.

But, you know how I feel about groups of 6. It should be groups of 4 across the board, to lessen the chances of collisions. So, I'm sticking with my magic number of 32. (8 groups of 4 skaters / partnerships, with resurfacings after skaters #8, #16 and #24)

Yes, an extra resurfacing and more warm-ups means the overall running time is increased. But, it would only be by about half an hour. And, most important of all, this extra resurfacing means an extra opportunity for the spectators / TV viewers to go to the toilet and / or get food.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Just getting back to the topic, I just saw a thread saying that the minimum TES requirements for Ladies in Worlds have been INCREASED!!! :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

ISU Communication No. 2302

In accordance with ISU Communication 2262, point 7, the ISU must inform the ISU Members at the latest 45 days prior to the entry deadline of the respective Championships if the announced required Minimum Total Elements Scores will be adjusted.

Based on the analysis of the current entries’ situation, the ISU Council has decided to increase the Minimum Total Elements Score for the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2020 for Ladies as follows:

ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2020

SP 2018/19 or 2019/20: from 29.00 to 30.00 and FS 2018/19 or 2019/20 from 49.00 to 51.00

The Minimum Total Elements Scores for the other disciplines (Pair Skating, Men, Ice Dance) remain unchanged as per ISU Communicaton 2262, point 7).

Much as I love her and think she is a rising talent, I don't fancy Aiza's chances of meeting these new requirements in such a short space of time.

If I was a swearing person, I would be doing it now.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[DenissVFan]

Unfortunately Aiza's chances of getting the required TES aren't looking the brightest at the moment. Her TES from Mentor Toruń Cup: SP: 21.04, FS: 35.21.