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- Jun 21, 2003
Well, that's a secure Triple Flutz/Almost-a-Triple Toeloop more than Caroline Zhang, Mirai Nagasu, Ashley Wagner, Emily Hughes, Bebe Liang, Katy Taylor or Alissa Czisny has.
What does Yu-Na Kim think of Caroline Zhang?
- Thread starter feraina
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Well, that's a secure Triple Flutz/Almost-a-Triple Toeloop more than Caroline Zhang, Mirai Nagasu, Ashley Wagner, Emily Hughes, Bebe Liang, Katy Taylor or Alissa Czisny has.
That was also true last year. How well did she fare at National's? Not bad for a debut, but still. FS isn't just about hitting 3/3's (though granted, it's nice to have in your arsenal.)
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- Jun 21, 2003
I thought she did great! Of the ladies who finished ahead of her, Meissner, Hughes, Czisny and Liang, I am not sure if any of them will be better in 2007-08 than they were in 2006-07, but I expect that Rachael will be.Feraina said:
Actually, it will be a crowded podium if Caroline, Mirai and Ashley all hit their stride.
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- Jun 21, 2003
That's true. But I have a funny feeling about how the New Judging System is working out. I don't think it is an accident that the top four finishers at worlds all had triple/triples and those who finished back in the pack didn't.
For the top contenders, it seems like it's not so much, do I have a triple/triple, but can I upgrade my 3Lz/3T or my 3F/3Lo to a 3Lz/3Lo and squeeze out an extra half point?
Men's figure skating isn't just about the quad. And yet, Joubert, Takahashi, Lambiel, Verner and Lysacek (1 through 5 at 2007 Worlds) all did a quad, and most of the other men did not.
While the quad alone doesn't guarantee anything, it does seem to be a rite of passage for guys who aspire to be taken seriously at the world level.
It's not an accident. But instead of your interpretation, I would rather point out that currently there are very few senior ladies competitors who have beautiful artistic presentation AND have consistent triples EXCLUDING 3A and 3/3, unlike in the recent past when we had Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen (on her best days), and Shizuka Arakwa in her OGM performance. I think the entry of Caroline, Mirai, and Ashley will change that, and then we can see how well they stack up against the jumping beans.
Likewise, on the men's side, when Weir and Buttle did clean programs without the quad, they did very well on the world scene, but currently not only do they not have the quad but they can't even land all their triples cleanly.
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- Jul 11, 2003
feraina - What exactly is a beautiful artistic interpretation? It's so different for so many people, including the judges. Perfectly executed clean routines are the benchmark for Presentation, imo. Not that I agree with that but that is what the scores show. The 3x3s that the Ladies do are also reflected in the PCS scores if they do them correctly.It's not an accident. But instead of your interpretation, I would rather point out that currently there are very few senior ladies competitors who have beautiful artistic presentation AND have consistent triples EXCLUDING 3A and 3/3, unlike in the recent past when we had Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen (on her best days), and Shizuka Arakwa in her OGM performance. I think the entry of Caroline, Mirai, and Ashley will change that, and then we can see how well they stack up against the jumping beans.
Likewise, on the men's side, when Weir and Buttle did clean programs without the quad, they did very well on the world scene, but currently not only do they not have the quad but they can't even land all their triples cleanly.
What I would like to see, are knees turned out, stretched legs and toes pointed. What makes figure skating special is its ability to show stroking with speed and flow. Not everyone has this.
Joe
I didn't say that the top skaters at Worlds this past year didn't have beautiful artistic interpretation, what I said was among the ladies who didn't have a 3/3 or 3A, nobody did 2 clean programs and stand out as having beautiful artistic interpretation. Do you disagree? And if so, can you point out an example? I wanted to make the point that while the other girls failed to present a threat, it's not clear whether it's mainly due to the lack of 3/3's, or more critically the lack of clean triples and good presentation in general.
Yes, and I'd like to see Yu-na & Miki improve on these.
Yes, and I'd like to see Miki, and to a smaller extent the other top ladies, do this while keeping their upper body upright!
I think Mao has lovely carriage while stroking. Yu-Na and Carolina's posture may not be as textbook but they can certainly generate speed with deep edges, especially Carolina.
This is an area that Caroline Z. has to improve on.
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- Mar 30, 2006
Well, that's a secure Triple Flutz/Almost-a-Triple Toeloop more than Caroline Zhang, Mirai Nagasu, Ashley Wagner, Emily Hughes, Bebe Liang, Katy Taylor or Alissa Czisny has.
Sure, but it doesn't matter if she isn't as consistent on her other jumps as Zhang, Mirai, and Wagner have shown themselves to be. Her spins + spirals are also not at the level of Zhang or Mirai. I think those 3 (Zhang, Mirai, Wagner), along with Kimmie, are going to be our top females for the next several years (unless Sasha comes back strong, making the field ridiculously deep with talent).
Part of my prediction that Flatt is going to be less consistent than the other girls is also a hunch that growth is going to affect her jumps negatively. There's really no way of telling, of course, we just have to wait and see. But that's the fun of predicting.
~Z
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- Jun 21, 2007
Yu-na should be wary of Caroline; Caroline has potential. And I'm not a fan of Caroline so you can't say I'm merely praising her.
I tend to agree with your hunch on Rachael -- just a feeling that her body-type seems like the kind that's going to fill out in such a way so as to affect skating particularly adversely. Another worrying sign is that she was 1st in Novice, 2nd in Junior, and now 5th in Senior at National's. That may be subtly reflecting growth issues... Maybe it's that the competition just gets tougher at the higher levels, but then you have other skaters like Caroline and Mirai who lurk in the background when they're younger, and then explode onto the scene all of a sudden.
Of course, the more talented/consistent skaters there are, the more exciting FS is. So here's hoping that our hunch is wrong.
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- Feb 21, 2006
I tend to agree with your hunch on Rachael -- just a feeling that her body-type seems like the kind that's going to fill out in such a way so as to affect skating particularly adversely. Another worrying sign is that she was 1st in Novice, 2nd in Junior, and now 5th in Senior at National's. That may be subtly reflecting growth issues... Maybe it's that the competition just gets tougher at the higher levels, but then you have other skaters like Caroline and Mirai who lurk in the background when they're younger, and then explode onto the scene all of a sudden.
Of course, the more talented/consistent skaters there are, the more exciting FS is. So here's hoping that our hunch is wrong.
If growth is such a negative factor, I find it hard to understand how Flatt has worked through a back injury, growing a couple of inches from her Jr to Sr year and managing to include a 3Lz-3T combo in her prgms. Seems that she has only gotten stronger, not weaker. And to be 14, first time out at Sr, recovering from a back injury and placing 5th this past January, not too shabby!
I don't think you can say going from 1st as Nov, 2nd as Jr, and 5th as first yr Sr is a step down. Sylvia did an analysis somewhere in another thread (Mirai and Rachael thread) which showed in the last few years the transition that several skaters have made through nov, jr and senior years with placements in their first sr year in the top 6.
I don't see what the big deal is, and I think when talking about Yu-na's long program woes last season, her problems with injuries need to seriously be considered. Until last season, I don't believe Yu-na had issues with long programs.
Yu-na has been dealing with injuries all season long last season and during last summer as well, and it hampered her ability to train as she would like. Plus her boot woes as well. Reports are that do to her injuries clearing up, Yu-na has been able to work on her triple loop, and feels comfortable putting it in next seasons programs...
I don't think that Caroline can compete with Yu-na yet.. Caroline doesn't have Yu-na's consistent triple triple..And she also doesn't have Yu-na's technique...What sets Yu-na apart probably from everyone is her excellent technique when it comes to jumping. Yu-na gets huge GOE scores for her jumps, and eventually those points add up... Caroline doesn't have that solid technique.
Yu-na has been dealing with injuries all season long last season and during last summer as well, and it hampered her ability to train as she would like. Plus her boot woes as well. Reports are that do to her injuries clearing up, Yu-na has been able to work on her triple loop, and feels comfortable putting it in next seasons programs...
I don't think that Caroline can compete with Yu-na yet.. Caroline doesn't have Yu-na's consistent triple triple..And she also doesn't have Yu-na's technique...What sets Yu-na apart probably from everyone is her excellent technique when it comes to jumping. Yu-na gets huge GOE scores for her jumps, and eventually those points add up... Caroline doesn't have that solid technique.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
True enough. But if you compare them at the same age, Caroline's achievements so far look pretty impressive.
Age 13
Caroline Zhang: 1st in both of her junior grand prix events, 1st at junior grand prix finals, 1st at junior world championship.
Yu-na Kim: (No internatioal events listed in her ISU biography for the 2003-2004 season).
However, skating-wise Kim (birthday in September) is only two "years" older than Zhang (bithday in May), not three. So it might be more fair to compare Caroline in 2006-07 with Yu-na in 2004-05.
Yu-na Kim at 14: 1st in both of her junior Grand Prix events, 2nd at junior GP finals, 2nd at junior worlds.
Since Caroline did not have to face Mao Asda, Kim's record in 2004-05 is comparable to Caroline's in 2006-07.
I can't wait to see what happens next!
I'm not sure that we can fairly look at well so and so won Junior Worlds. I mean Jenny Kirk won junior Worlds... I truly don't think you can go by just record. You have to instead look at what said skater is actually capable of doing.In this sense, I think its fair to point out that Caroline has some technical problems to her skating.. Yes, Caroline is flashier than Kwan was when she came into the scene or than and Yu-na Kim. But technically, all three girls had stronger technical skills than Caroline. And while Mao has had issues with her triple toe/and flutz her triple axel makes up for a lot evils...It's hard for me to believe that in just a few months time, Caroline is suddenly going to have a solid technique...
Also while Caroline is younger than Mao or Yu-na was, I think in someways it is fair to compare Caroline's last year as a Junior skater to Mao and Yu-na's last junior year because this can help determine if Caroline will make the same splash this year as they did.
Mao was hitting triple axels as Junior, Yu-na was consistently hitting triple triples as a Junior...This is something that Caroline didn't do.. Now, it may be true that Caroline is working on them...But its one thing to land them in practice, and another thing to hit them in competition...
Also while Caroline is younger than Mao or Yu-na was, I think in someways it is fair to compare Caroline's last year as a Junior skater to Mao and Yu-na's last junior year because this can help determine if Caroline will make the same splash this year as they did.
Mao was hitting triple axels as Junior, Yu-na was consistently hitting triple triples as a Junior...This is something that Caroline didn't do.. Now, it may be true that Caroline is working on them...But its one thing to land them in practice, and another thing to hit them in competition...
Yu-na had a solid season with LP in 2005-6, but when I looked up her YouTube performances prior to that, I was surprised to see how she struggled with her jump consistency. In her earliest videos, at 14 or 15, you could already see how much passion she skated with; it's impressive when a young lady can put that much heart into her skating, she's definitely got natural talent in this department. But she was not landing her jumps consistently.
As for Caroline, she has amazingly good techniques when it comes to spins, and her flexibility gets her extra kudos on spirals. While she has technique problems with her jumps, she does land them very consistently. No, she doesn't have a 3/3 yet, though rumors have it that she's practicing them. So let's SEE at SA what she brings out, shall we?
I don't think you should be TOO surprised if she "suddenly" does manage to incorporate 3/3's into her programs. After all, she "suddenly" stopped under-rotating her 3's last summer. Not one under-rotation in an entire past season, and that's more than you can say for Kimmie, Emily, Alissa, Rachael, Mao, just to name a few off the top of my head... This is especially impressive when she was getting jumps down-graded left and right throughout 2005-6. She states in her USFSA bio that her goals for the new season are to improve the "quality and difficulty" of the technical content of her programs, so let's give her a chance to show us what she can do!
