Mirai stunned Japanese fans -> Do you like Michelle Kwan?

[rutinia]

That being the case, what are they rivals in? "Beautiful skating"? If that's the case, then no need to obsess about Kim, since by your own analysis Asada will be able to outjump anyone.

I think there has been a misunderstanding of technique versus technical difficulty. Jump technique is how a person should ideally execute a jump. Technical difficulty is the actual level of difficulty of a jump. Since as bekalc pointed out Mao lacks several triples and has a flawed lutz, her technique is not necessarily the best. However she does push the boundaries of technical difficulty for the ladies in that she attempts difficult jumps and combinations. Whether these jumps are executed with good technique is another matter.

Since yesterday, I was talking about "technical superiority". I said a skater with "a wobbly 3Lz-3Lo" is superior to the one with only "a clean 3T-3T."

In jumps ("techniques"), Yuna Kim doesn't qualify as "Mao's rival" as long as she can't land 3As and 3-3Lo combos. For the time being, 3flutz and salchow are not problems for Mao. She just doesn't need to fix/include them -- more accurately the choices are left for her. Some people are so keen on those things. Maybe they are the only possible nit-picking parts. As the same way, some MK fans blame Mao for lack of "facial expressions" and "the connection to the audiences". That's reasonable enough, Mao doesn't hold MK as her model.

 

[Mathman]

Naw, the audience will "connect" with any exceptional program flawlessly executed, face or no face.

But the girl has to bring it. Hitting a 3Lz+3Lo will bring the crowd to its feet. Flubbing it won't.

I can't wait for the season to start!

 

[rutinia]

Naw, the audience will "connect" with any exceptional program flawlessly executed, face or no face.

Well, the famous MK term "connection to the audience" is understood both ways. MK is very good at appealing (selling herself) to the audiences. Her simple elements and moves have become fabulous enough to "take your soul to the heavens and make you hear the angels sing" to some people. That's typical American ways of self intoxication. I don't think these things are universal in any sense. Mao is more like a traditional Japanese artisan. They are prould to present great techniques and works with minimum ostentation.

 

[blue dog]

I don't know which "most people" say that. If Yuna Kim has so fast rotation, she's already mastered a 3A and even quads!
Sorry, I don't consider Yuna Kim as Mao's rival, at least in techniques. The gap between them is even wider than IS and MK. And after watching their latest show programs, I confirmed Yuna Kim has lost any advantages.
Until last season, most of the non jump elements are "relaxation" parts for Mao. As a result, she lost so many levels and points. But for this season, she doesn't compromise anything.
Yuna Kim has been reported to aim "the level 4 footworks". I understand that is the only technical frontier left for her. I'm not sure Mao has a mercy for her though.

Fast rotation isn't what makes a triple axel, Rutinia. Studies have been done, and what makes a triple axel is stronger arms. Mao and Yeon-Ah can spin as fast as they want in the air--if they don't have strong arms, there is no 3A. If you haven't noticed, when Mao does the 3A, she throws her arms up, as if she is lifting herself.

Quads are another story (the verdict is out on that one)

 

[Mathman]

On a slightly different topic, the CoP is quite a strange bird. I was just looking at Mao's record-setting LP at Worlds. She got the highest ever point total out of her jumping passes -- 49.81 points, including bonuses and GOEs. This program contained a triple Axel (7.5 points), a 2A+3T combo (strangely, the CoP feels that this is the equal of a triple Axel, 7.5 points), two Lutzes, two fips and an attempted 3F+3Lo combo.

Now here's a program with no triple Axel and no triple-triple that brings in 46.4 points, before GOEs. If this skater had gotten +1 GOE on four of her elements, she would have beaten Mao!

3L3+2T, 2A+3T, 3F, 3Lo*, 3F+2Lo+2Lo*, 3S*, 3S.

I hope Alissa Czisny is reading this!!!

 

[blue dog]

Well, the famous MK term "connection to the audience" is understood both ways. MK is very good at appealing (selling herself) to the audiences. Her simple elements and moves have become fabulous enough to "take your soul to the heavens and make you hear the angels sing" to some people. That's typical American ways of self intoxication. I don't think these things are universal in any sense. Mao is more like a traditional Japanese artisan. They are prould to present great techniques and works with minimum ostentation.

Rutinia, if Mao is so proud to present only great techniques, then why did she do the following:

1. Go to Rafael Arutinian, Michelle Kwan's coach? Why not remain with Machiko Yamada (teacher of the bad wrap)?

2. Go to Lori Nichol, then Tatiana Tarasova--both of whom choreographed for this woman who "sells herself" (by the way, watch how you use those words--you can offend people by saying such things)? Why not be content with just the triple axel?

 

[Mathman]

Well, the famous MK term "connection to the audience" is understood both ways. MK is very good at appealing (selling herself) to the audiences. Her simple elements and moves have become fabulous enough to "take your soul to the heavens and make you hear the angels sing" to some people. That's typical American ways of self intoxication. I don't think these things are universal in any sense. Mao is more like a traditional Japanese artisan. They are proud to present great techniques and works with minimum ostentation.

To me, this is the very reason why we should respect other peoples' preferences and traditions.

If a fan's favorite skater takes that fan to the stars, that's a good thing. No need to insult the skater or the fan.

 

[rutinia]

To me, this is the very reason why we should respect other peoples' preferences and traditions.

If a fan's favorite skater takes that fan to the stars, that's a good thing. No need to insult the skater or the fan.

I don't blame others (like Kathy) just for praising the MK style.

I wanted to present my understanding of the political biases of "artisty" things and how those things are harmful and unfair. I don't say I'm neutral about MK. She's like a political merchant rather than an athlete to my eyes.

 

[DaveT]

I don't blame others (like Kathy) just for praising the MK style.

I wanted to presented my understanding of political biases of "artisty" things and how those things are harmful and unfair. I don't say I'm neutral about MK. She's like a political merchant rather than a athlete to me.

If that is your mission, then do it, sans anti-Americanism, et al, it's offensive, unnecessary and prevents you from being taken seriously.

 

[rutinia]

1. Go to Rafael Arutinian, Michelle Kwan's coach? Why not remain with Machiko Yamada (teacher of the bad wrap)?

2. Go to Lori Nichol, then Tatiana Tarasova--both of whom choreographed for this woman who "sells herself" (by the way, watch how you use those words--you can offend people by saying such things)? Why not be content with just the triple axel?

As for Arutunian, I've heard Abt has recommended him through someone close to Asada sisters. They chose the place (Lake Arrowhead) first, and Arutunian was a good candidate for teaching jumps and "skating skills".

As for LN and TT, what Mao expects is to fully realize her technical and expressional potentials. Not necessarily to ask for a copy of the MK style "sell programs".

edit

Mao often uses a term "expression", but "artistry" is almost an alien language. I don't exactly understand the meanings of "expressions" though, her new exhibition programs may reveal some of them. I'm sure MK has nothing to do with it.

 

[Wrlmy]

Mao often uses a term "expression", but "artistry" is almost an alien language. I don't exactly understand the meanings of "expressions" though, her new exhibition programs may reveal some of them. I'm sure MK has nothing to do with it.

Being half-Japanese myself, I would say Japanese term for "expression" (hyougenryoku) and English term "artistry" are pretty much interchangeable, at least in figure skating, even though their dictionary definitions might suggest otherwise. Who am I kidding. You should know better, you are Japanese right?

 

[hockeyfan228]

The usage of "artistry" is the problem. As for MK, it just means "MK can't match IS in techniques, but we want her to win by any means, SO LET'S DO IT" type of expedience. It has become much important after 2001, when IS made decisive technical superiority over MK by the 3Lz-3Lo.

Let's see: Sarah Hughes had a 3Lz-3Lo, and that didn't make her technically superior to a clean Kwan, because her overall technique, including most of the toe jumps, couldn't compare to Kwan's, nor did her stroking, posture, or form.

Hmm, besides Kwan, Lipinski, Chen, Gusmeroli, Cohen, Hughes, and Arakawa placed higher than Slutskaya at the Olympics and Worlds (not counting the year she didn't make the team or was ill). I guess that means a worldwide conspiracy to place Kwan over Slutskaya.

Everyone knows IS is "superior " to MK as an athlete. Even with one big mistake, IS always deserves to beat "clean MK".

Oh? Everyone? Slutskaya gained speed at the expense of pumping her back with less grace and precision than a speed skater; this is accounted for in the "artistic" mark. Her short programs from SLC on put all three jumping passes on a row so that she could concentrate on "artistry." It is technically more difficult to perform jumps after spins and footwork passes, besides the requirements for choreography under 6.0 that were part of the "artistic" mark. It is technically more difficult to hold one's back in proper position and perform unassisted spirals.

Just imagine, if IS was an American, very few people would talk about "artistry" things.

Oh, I see, you slept through the Tonya Harding vs. Kristi Yamaguchi arguments.

The Americans simply love "a heroine to raise the flag to the highest point", aren't they?

Yes, we all march as one, as you can see by the consensus on this board

"Artistry" is subjective, arbitrary, an instrument of political favoritism, filled with prejudices and manipulations, easily leads to fixed competitions, and always on the side of legendary Michelle Kwan!

Except when it fell on the side of the not-quite-so-legendary Irina Slutskaya, in

Moscow LP: PCS 66.07 vs. Kwan's PCS of 59.36
Nagano Worlds LP: five 5.9's in presentation from the judges who marked her first, all but one higher than Kwan's, and the fifth tied, with the tech score making the difference.

But of course, she deserved all of those "artistry" scores, unlike Kwan.

 

[rutinia]

Being half-Japanese myself, I would say Japanese term for "expression" (hyougenryoku) and English term "artistry" are pretty much interchangeable, at least in figure skating, even though their dictionary definitions might suggest otherwise. Who am I kidding. You should know better, you are Japanese right?

Being half-Japanese myself, I would say Japanese term for "expression" (hyougenryoku) and English term "artistry" are pretty much interchangeable, at least in figure skating, even though their dictionary definitions might suggest otherwise. Who am I kidding. You should know better, you are Japanese right?

I don't think those two are interchangeable.

Artistry (politics aside) is mainly related to ostentatious upper body movements and "face" tricks.
MK, Yukina Ota and Yuna Kim are typical "artists". I think these things are commonly used to cover up unskillfulness of skating (Ota), lack of flexibility (MK), or both (Kim). You can be an "artist" in technically empty programs.
Since hiding their weaknesses is its main aim, choices of music and choreography are very important.

Expression is more related to smooth execution of beautiful AND difficult elements -- flexible spins and spirals, intricated footworks and effortless jumps. For ladies, flexibility is a very important part of expressions. She must pack the program with difficult elements and moves. There is no "expression" out of MK style empty programs. For a good expressionist, music and choreographies are not important. She can make any programs "expressional".

Above are simply my personal opinions.

 

[Wrlmy]

For a good expressionist, music and choreographies are not important. She can make any programs "expressional".

Above are simply my personal opinions.

I strongly agree to this part. But, I would strongly disagree that technically "empty" skating can be artistic. Again, just my opinion.
To digress a little bit, I've seen a few japanese fluffs about Mao vs. Yu-na and looks like the Japanese media has labeled them as cute jumper vs. sexy expressionist as early as in their junior seasons. Too early to define and categorize any skater or athelete, no?

 

[blue dog]

I strongly agree to this part. But, I would strongly disagree that technically "empty" skating can be artistic. Again, just my opinion.
To digress a little bit, I've seen a few japanese fluffs about Mao vs. Yu-na and looks like the Japanese media has labeled them as cute jumper vs. sexy expressionist as early as in their junior seasons. Too early to define and categorize any skater or athelete, no?

I am of the group that thinks it is too early. I think Mao will develop into an artist in the future. Look at who she is working with! Not to mention, Mao seems to enjoy getting a crowd to be with her every move--she knows that if all she did was jump (like satorare wants her to do), the crowds would stop watching. It would be like watching school figures.

 

[Mathman]

For ladies, flexibility is a very important part of expressions. She must pack the program with difficult elements and moves.

I can't argue about shades of meaning of Japanese words, but if there is a word in Japanese that refers to "flexibility and packing your program with difficult elements," that word could not be translated into English as "expression."

Yuka Sato recently performed here in a benefit show for a local girl who is gravely ill. Sato did a double Axel (3.3 points) and a double flip (1.7 points). She skated to Amazing Grace, executed the choreography exquisitely and captured the character of the music in every nuance. She didn't make funny faces or shimmy* for the crowd's applause.

That's expression.

--------------------------------

*But just so there is no doubt, Yuka can shimmy -- she did it in one of her numbers in SOI! That's expression, too. She was interpreting Leiber and Stoller's "Teach me how to shimmy," rather than Amazing Grace, LOL.

 

[rutinia]

I strongly agree to this part. But, I would strongly disagree that technically "empty" skating can be artistic. Again, just my opinion.
To digress a little bit, I've seen a few japanese fluffs about Mao vs. Yu-na and looks like the Japanese media has labeled them as cute jumper vs. sexy expressionist as early as in their junior seasons. Too early to define and categorize any skater or athelete, no?

I think it's too much to say "strongly disagree that technically "empty" skating can be artistic". We don't need to negate the raison d'etre of pro skaters and ice shows. It's better to make a clear demarcation between two concepts. Whatever the translation, Mao is making a new standard of expressions. The concept of "artistry" will die, at least in the competitive skating.

 

[Mathman]

The concept of "artistry" will die, at least in the competitive skating.

Sadly, I think you are right. And figure skating will die with it.

 

[Wrlmy]

Well, I was referring to the fact that even pro skates and exhibition pieces are not technically empty. They are less challenging (technically) though than competetive programs.

 

[krenseby]

I think it's too much to say "strongly disagree that technically "empty" skating can be artistic". We don't need to negate the raison d'etre of pro skaters and ice shows. It's better to make a clear demarcation between two concepts. Whatever the translation, Mao is making a new standard of expressions. The concept of "artistry" will die, at least in the competitive skating.

I don't think the concept of artistry will die in skating. I, on the other hand, do enjoy the athletic quality of skating. Rutinia, I personally agree with you that good solid jumps, spins, and spirals are amazing to watch, even if they aren't elegant or accompanied by emotion.

Now, Michelle Kwan managed to skate in an emotionally expressive way and that made her special to many fans. However, that's not what made her win. Michelle Kwan was first and foremost a jumping bean and she was one of the most consistent skaters in the history of the sport. Other skaters frequently added some more difficult jumps, but year after year, she trumped them in all in that she had no breakdowns and managed to deliver every time.

So, I see this whole argument of Michelle being overrated because of her artistry as misguided because she was an accomplished technical skater with great jumps and spirals. (Spins weren't so important in the 6.0 era.)

But, finally, it must be said that even artistry itself is a technical accomplishment. To be able to perform complex choreography without getting distracted from your jumps is a technical accomplishment not an artistic one.

Lyricism, graceful arm movements, attention to every nuance of music while twisting your body in hundreds of difficult ways in jumps, spins, and spirals is a technical skill. Every elegant arm motion, or piece of foot-work makes jumping a lot more difficult.