2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[flanker]

You mean 1910, as born in 1930ties actually can't remember any discussion after 1928 Olympics .

What can I tell you... do you know that in 1928 in some European countries 12 y.o. girls were regular workers in factories? My grandmother went from Poland to South of France for work as a 14 y.o. girl, having a passport of her older sister. So please don't compare what people could say THEN with a nowadays point of view. We are in quite different environment and children rights are basicaly respected in every European country.

Among those rights also belongs to go in for sport the child wants to excell in. Though it sometimes looks like "concerned grandmas" would like to ban all sport activities till 18

 

[Mathman]

There is simply not enough scientific evidence of specific adverse effects in relation to training loads.

In other words, the answer to my question is, "No, there is no conclusion to be drawn from these random observations.

 

[brakes]

I don't know where the tv guy took 6 weeks break period as carreer ending, but that's what he said. He also said foreign athletes are still training.

 

[ruga]

I mean a lot of athletes spend more than 6 weeks off ice with injuries and no exercising at all and come back just about fine. And I haven't heard of any other athletes who get to train like they used to before, well maybe except for Koreans and Swedes (and maybe the Japanese, but Kihira was recently advertising 'Stay At Home' campaign and there is state of emergency in Japan so take it as you wish).

 

[el henry]

Proud to be a "Concerned Grandma"

who enforced child labor laws back in the day

But 18 is a straw person. I've never advocated for that.

 

[Arbitrary]

Even if those two generations of skaters (Aces and Youngsters of Tutberidze) lost totally, it's by itself will not ruin FS and Quads Revolution.
Few years later a new generation will be ascending.

But having COVID-style issue every few years will do enormous harm.

 

[flanker]

Proud to be a "Concerned Grandma"

who enforced child labor laws back in the day

But 18 is a straw person. I've never advocated for that.

The question is: are the concerned grandmas concerned for Eteri's girls or for their favourites?

BTW children sport activities didn't turn into a child labor by introducing quads in ladies category

 

[Tolstoj]

This is just your guess. No need to make your own opinion an axiom. Can you give any facts confirming your statement? How in this case to explain the fact that there are more and more girls of 8-9 years old who confidently make 3-3 combos? After all, they do not have to rush, because no one is going to lower the age of juniors. This is all the same 13 years as 5-7 years ago. In my opinion, the ongoing changes in the FS are associated with progress in the training process in the best schools in the world that strive to compete with each other. This is a natural course of things. Caring for the health of children, which the advocates of adult skating love so much, is rather a psychological argument. In order for this to serve as a proof of someone's righteousness, you must give specific data , otherwise it is simply dishonest and dishonorable.

Veronika Zhilina was born in 2008.

Her senior debut will be in 2023.

Main aim of her career, will be in 2026.

She will be 18 (!) years old anyway, regardless of age limit restriction.

Yet, She started doing quads at 10-11 years old.

In her coaching career, Eteri has pupils who needed to peak at 18 years old (Medvedeva being most profilic example) and girls who needed to peak at 15 years old. All these girls were trained same way.

If you think that training regiment at Khrustalny is ever going to get easier on bodies, I think you are mistaken, mentality there is 'everyone is in pain, everyone is hungry, everyone is tired now go and jump' and it's going to stay that way.

I disagree on Medvedeva being a good example of peaking at 18 years old, cause she was soo much better in 2016 and 2017 while in 2018 already she was struggling all seasons with injuries and some of her jumps were indeed regressing in height and lenght, but hold it together for the Olympics cause it was her big career moment. I remember some people even saying Osmond should have finished ahead of her. (i disagree)

As for the rest i thought it was obvious that yes that is my opinion, based on men's skating and the effects of training quads while staying in juniors up until 18, and most importantly puberty which often hits around 16-17 and can completely change your body. Maybe it won't change a thing in the end, maybe i'm wrong, we shall see.

For me i had already explained the reasons why i think that supposed proposal could be good (as well as the quads allowed in the short) for the sport, and it's not about slowing down Khrustalny skaters, but rather an hope to see seniors being actual seniors, otherwise go the other route, change those names, call it Series A and B, cause right now the line between juniors and seniors is blurring, all looking very similar.

 

[Edwin]

Konstantinova definitely isn't getting a GP spot.

Konstantinova of late seems like depressed in her social media outings. I remember to have read she suffered an anxiety attack when quarantine started, has problems with weight and shape, yet says she doesn't care about being off the reserve team.
Lately, she said she thinks about 'unlearning' and perhaps trying her hand in design and staging, while skating in shows etc. It's all very confusing.

Given her lack of results, FFKKR in my opinion made the right decision, and wether any of Konstantinova's 'backers' now feel disappointed and even betrayed either by Stanislava or certain powers within FFKKR will probably spill out in the media some time soon.

 

[TallyT]

I think it depends on how much longer they are off the ice for. In a recent interview with the Russian team doctor, he said the amount of time you’re off is the amount of recovery time needed - ie 1 month off = 1 month recovery (which is where we are now), 2 months off = 2 months recover. If we are lucky, maybe they can come back to the ice in a limited capacity in late May, which would mean recovery through most of June/July and then ramping up to full training again in August.

And of course that assumes that we do NOT have a second wave of the virus, as many who've studied pandemics say is quite likely, or if we do, there is a vaccine faster than predicted. If we get a second wave, 2020-21 is screwed.

Of course, if everyone is in the same boat it may in fact delay the 'passing of the guard' from Alina and the 3A to the next generation, the latter may find they can dominate that bit longer because the juniors coming up also have to relearn.

 

[Amei]

Veronika Zhilina was born in 2008.

Her senior debut will be in 2023.

Main aim of her career, will be in 2026.

She will be 18 (!) years old anyway, regardless of age limit restriction.

Yet, She started doing quads at 10-11 years old.

In her coaching career, Eteri has pupils who needed to peak at 18 years old (Medvedeva being most profilic example) and girls who needed to peak at 15 years old. All these girls were trained same way.

If you think that training regiment at Khrustalny is ever going to get easier on bodies, I think you are mistaken, mentality there is 'everyone is in pain, everyone is hungry, everyone is tired now go and jump' and it's going to stay that way.

I don't think Sambo trains skaters to peak for the Olympics, I think they train to beat what's currently winning on the senior circuit.
Lipnitskaia, with the exception of Mao Asada's triple axel, she performed the most difficult jumps and was extremely consistent her first full year in senior
While Lipnitskaia was doing that Medvedeva was training to tano everything for GOE bonus points, once Medvedeva turned senior she dominated with those extra points from being able to tano everything; Lipnitskaia struggled to be able to tano her jumps. While Medvedeva was dominating on the senior circuit, Zagitova/Shcherbakova/Kostornaia were all training to back-load everything. Once Zagitova turned senior she was able to dominate with it; Medvedeva tried to increase her back-loaded jumps but was not able to back-load it to the degree that Zagitova could and Zagitova overtook her. Meanwhile Kostornaia was training triple axels and Shcherbakova/Trusova were training quads; they all 3 came into seniors this year and overtook Zagitova and dominated everything. It will be interesting to see if Zagitova trains to land quads/triple axels, and can consistently beat the other 3 since we haven't seen a Sambo skater get overtaken as the top skater and then come back to be top skater again; I know someone posted an interview where she alluded to landing a quad (granted we don't know how competition ready it is and what type of attempt it was - was it on the fishing pole, under-rotated, etc.); I would think that she'd be much better off perfecting the triple axel first, it's a benefit in the SP that she won't get with the quad at this point with the rules.

 

[Amei]

And remind me, till when a skater had to turn proffesional to take part in profitable shows in the USA? Afaik Oksana Baiul was the last one to have no choice if she wanted to earn good money? So yes, business as usual... till 1994. After there we have poor Tara who paid for "being the youngest" with her health, Sara Hudges who tried to continue but evidently lost motivation after the year, Shizuka Arakava who was 24 while won Olympics, Yuna Kim who continued next quad and well known Russian winners. A full range of biografies... that doesn't advocate your claim.

Yuna Kim barely competed after she won in Vancouver and I would be willing to bet that she continued more due to Fed or sponsor pressure vs. what she actually wanted. In the 3 seasons after Vancouver she competed a grand total of 7 times, 5 times internationally - 2 World championships, 2 challenger events, 2 South Korean nationals and at the Sochi Olympics.

 

[el henry]

The question is: are the concerned grandmas concerned for Eteri's girls or for their favourites?

BTW children sport activities didn't turn into a child labor by introducing quads in ladies category

But the subject of Grandma's concern is a different question And everyone knows at this point that I maintain my concern is equal for all skaters, certainly no one can point to any post of mine that shows bias or jealousy, and if someone else has shown bias or jealousy, go argue with them, not me

And I have talked in other threads about analogizing at least the labor laws I am familiar with to skating, but I'm not sure that's relevant here, so for once I will not digress.

Although of course it is not comparable to concern for the world at large, but I do feel badly that all skaters, including Russian ladies, need to live with such uncertainty now.:sad21:

 

[KOBOT37]

I disagree on Medvedeva being a good example of peaking at 18 years old, cause she was soo much better in 2016 and 2017 while in 2018 already she was struggling all seasons with injuries and some of her jumps were indeed regressing in height and lenght, but hold it together for the Olympics cause it was her big career moment. I remember some people even saying Osmond should have finished ahead of her. (i disagree)

As for the rest i thought it was obvious that yes that is my opinion, based on men's skating and the effects of training quads while staying in juniors up until 18, and most importantly puberty which often hits around 16-17 and can completely change your body. Maybe it won't change a thing in the end, maybe i'm wrong, we shall see.

For me i had already explained the reasons why i think that supposed proposal could be good (as well as the quads allowed in the short) for the sport, and it's not about slowing down Khrustalny skaters, but rather an hope to see seniors being actual seniors, otherwise go the other route, change those names, call it Series A and B, cause right now the line between juniors and seniors is blurring, all looking very similar.

I never said Medvedeva peaked at Olympics, but she had to peak during Olympics(If where ever was any doubt, everything what happened before and after Olympics made it pretty clear that Olympics were most important competition for her, by far). Regarding to Injuries... she was being overtrained during her Olympic season, for extremely obvious reasons.

Contrary to popular belief around FS community, Junior tournaments aren't there to keep "kids" from destroying "womanly","mature", "emotional" skating (whatever does it mean) but to allow juniors development to the point that they can compete against Seniors. In other words some 15 years old kid isn't put in front of Cristiano Ronaldo because of difference in playing abilities are too big for it to make any sense. Seniors isn't the place where adult athletes who have no chance against best athletes in the world should be in, "Veterans" is the word for that.

 

[KOBOT37]

I don't think Sambo trains skaters to peak for the Olympics, I think they train to beat what's currently winning on the senior circuit.
Lipnitskaia, with the exception of Mao Asada's triple axel, she performed the most difficult jumps and was extremely consistent her first full year in senior
While Lipnitskaia was doing that Medvedeva was training to tano everything for GOE bonus points, once Medvedeva turned senior she dominated with those extra points from being able to tano everything; Lipnitskaia struggled to be able to tano her jumps. While Medvedeva was dominating on the senior circuit, Zagitova/Shcherbakova/Kostornaia were all training to back-load everything. Once Zagitova turned senior she was able to dominate with it; Medvedeva tried to increase her back-loaded jumps but was not able to back-load it to the degree that Zagitova could and Zagitova overtook her. Meanwhile Kostornaia was training triple axels and Shcherbakova/Trusova were training quads; they all 3 came into seniors this year and overtook Zagitova and dominated everything. It will be interesting to see if Zagitova trains to land quads/triple axels, and can consistently beat the other 3 since we haven't seen a Sambo skater get overtaken as the top skater and then come back to be top skater again; I know someone posted an interview where she alluded to landing a quad (granted we don't know how competition ready it is and what type of attempt it was - was it on the fishing pole, under-rotated, etc.); I would think that she'd be much better off perfecting the triple axel first, it's a benefit in the SP that she won't get with the quad at this point with the rules.

Khrustalny (Sambo is bigger than that) trains everybody to be able to execute technically hardest programmes, completely regardless of time left until Olympics, worlds, seniors. Obviously nobody trained Veronika Zhilina to peak at 15 or 17 years old. She can land 4T and 3A now, won't be surprised if she repeats Natan's Olympic content in Juniors.

We are talking about a school which loves to maintain that every training session there is little world championship and coach,tasked to teach little kids to skate (literary) is thinking about how to help them to quickly get to the point of learning jumps, they aren't going to take it easy because age limit suddenly moved to 17 or 18

p.s Zagitova trained quads before olympics but stopped it because it was objectively not necessary.

 

[flanker]

I don't think Sambo trains skaters to peak for the Olympics, I think they train to beat what's currently winning on the senior circuit.
Lipnitskaia, with the exception of Mao Asada's triple axel, she performed the most difficult jumps and was extremely consistent her first full year in senior
While Lipnitskaia was doing that Medvedeva was training to tano everything for GOE bonus points, once Medvedeva turned senior she dominated with those extra points from being able to tano everything; Lipnitskaia struggled to be able to tano her jumps. While Medvedeva was dominating on the senior circuit, Zagitova/Shcherbakova/Kostornaia were all training to back-load everything. Once Zagitova turned senior she was able to dominate with it; Medvedeva tried to increase her back-loaded jumps but was not able to back-load it to the degree that Zagitova could and Zagitova overtook her. Meanwhile Kostornaia was training triple axels and Shcherbakova/Trusova were training quads; they all 3 came into seniors this year and overtook Zagitova and dominated everything. It will be interesting to see if Zagitova trains to land quads/triple axels, and can consistently beat the other 3 since we haven't seen a Sambo skater get overtaken as the top skater and then come back to be top skater again; I know someone posted an interview where she alluded to landing a quad (granted we don't know how competition ready it is and what type of attempt it was - was it on the fishing pole, under-rotated, etc.); I would think that she'd be much better off perfecting the triple axel first, it's a benefit in the SP that she won't get with the quad at this point with the rules.

Axel is not Alina's strongest jump. From ther list you've counted you can see that Eteri's team is focusing individually on every skater's strongest elements and abilities in the first phase. Alina, thanks to her stamina, was able to backload everything and in the next season was able to deliver overally strongest layout (not with strongest partial elements, but in total her delivery was the strongest of all). Aliona, apart from artistic qualities, has strong axel - > she was trained in 3A. The same now with Daria Usacheva, who has also very strong axel (at Junior worlds she's received 1.27 GOE for her opening 2A), she can be expected to have 2A soon (or as soon as theere will be returning to the normal training conditions). Others are trained in quads, when they have strong legs like Sasha or just have very stgable jumps.
As I've said, that is the first phase, where the skaters are focusing on their strongest parts. Then, the second phase comes, when they have stable strong elements that give them the advantage in the competition. In the second phase they start to strenghten in the other parts. This is where Sasha, Anna and others are starting to learn 3A or some other elements, not as strong originally. We've seen Sasha landing 3A in trainings or before the Gala at Europens, according to other interviews we can say that e.g. Anna was probably able to land 3A in training with some degree of success.
So, first the skaters are focused to maximize what is their strongest side, then they start to improve the other things. As for Alina, I expect that now her aim would be on some quad, probably 4F as flip is her strongest jump, and then if succesful possibly some other elements.

 

[KOBOT37]

Chances of Alina landing every quad next season is bigger than her ever landing 3A.

Considering that She rulet out going for 'cheap' quads like 4Toe or 4S, She will probably go for 4Lz or 4F maybe even 4Lo.

Regarding to beating 3A consistently... at this point, skaters who can consistently beat 3A can be counted using fingers of a single hand and most of them will have problems against Peak Trusova so I doubt Alina sets her expection that high

 

[icetug]

Among those rights also belongs to go in for sport the child wants to excell in.

Children have right to be protected from their own desires, the consequences of which they cannot foresee. It's their parents, teachers and coaches role to provide safe environment they can develop their wants.

Though it sometimes looks like "concerned grandmas" would like to ban all sport activities till 18

Grandmas only? Don't think so. Sarcasm apart, kids should be stopped, not encouraged to do anything that is dangerous to their physical and mental health.

I was talking once with a colleague, who is a former skater successful on a junior level and now is a coach, about Stephen Gogolev learning quads (when Gogo was 11 so it was in the time no Russian lady presented quads, at least internationally). He said it was irresponsible to introduce such a difficult element to a kid because of medical reason and that according to his best knowledge it would influence the kid's bone structure resulting in problems with growth and bone density and, in the long run, developmental disorders of the musculoskeletal system and overuse injuries. That's why kids shouldn't be taught quads till they were at least 15. And the colleague is in his fourties now so he's definitely not a granddad .

 

[Edwin]

...

Now there are some possibly valid arguments, provided they are staved with sufficient medical evidence.

And of course, growing up is inherently dangerous, walking, running, riding a bike, skate boarding, climbing trees, all these children's activities make deadly victims every year. Not to mention all the self-transportation junk that toy manufacturers spoil us with every X-mas season.

When we confine ourselves to children and youths in sports like gymnastics, diving, freestyling, any and all other sports where small bodies, physically strong and psychologically fearless children excel, should be banned or at best restricted to their least dangerous and most sedate elements?

Nobody blinked an eye when the emotionally, psychologically, physically and even sexually abusive USAG coaches and staff like the Karoly's, Nunno, Geddert, Nassar et al brought the USA the most coveted Gold medals in the Summer Olympics. On the contrary, it led to a whole generation of mad gym mums exploiting their own children in the race towards glory and $$$$, as still evidenced today in their daily IG updates.

Different societies, different priorities, different cultural sensitivities.

In all sports, where athletes strive for higher, stronger, faster the universal adagium is 'no pain, no gain'.

 

[JazzUp]

And the colleague is in his fourties now so he's definitely not a granddad .

And without any sound medical/scientific/statistical proof presented to back his point, he's just another grandma. And just as irrelevant.