- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
OK, how about this? Grand Prix final in November, Nationals in December, 4CC in January, Olympics in February if it's held, and Worlds in March.
Date of 4CC - Timing OK for N.Americans?
- Thread starter Joesitz (RIP)
- Start date
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- Dec 16, 2006
When in my post did I say MOVE the nationals to December?
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Excellent suggestion but US Nats would have to be moved to December because Euros has always been one week after the US Nats.
Joe
This year and next year Euros and US Nationals are the same week.
If 4Cs were the same week as well, then there would be no skaters from the US at all, unless the USFSA does with 4C assignments the same as they do with the University Games assignment (the winners of the US Collegiates are given the choice of get sent to the University Games instead of going to Nationals), and perhaps assign the winners of each sectional to 4Cs (which, actually, not a bad idea, it would be a great opportunity for them), and if then the skaters were to medal at 4Cs, they'd get team envelope status and potential GP assignments the following season.
Moving US Nationals to December would not be a simple thing to implement (and since Nationals, Sectionals, and Regionals are scheduled 2-3 years out, it would be several years before they could even do it) Somewhere around between 220-250 skaters compete at Nationals (72 novices, 72-82 juniors, depending on JGP byes, 90-100 seniors depending on international byes), and only the top six seniors in each division are going to be affected by the timing of 4Cs (the 3 skaters/teams assigned to 4Cs, and the 3 alternates). Not to mention that the timing of sectionals and regionals would be affected by the timing of nationals, which is going to domino into affecting 1500 skaters.
That's really unfair and impractical. And for what? An event that is less than ten years old, and basically only created because the ISU wanted to grab more television dollars.
As an event that gives competitive experience and world rankings points to skaters from developing countries who otherwise would only get to compete at their own nationals, the occasional senior B event, and the qualifying rounds at worlds, 4Cs is a wonderful opportunity and I absolutely think it should continue. But for the top skaters from the US, Canada, Japan, Israel, and China (which are the first few countries that come to mind), who already circle the globe for the GP series, it's not going to do much for their career. The paycheck is nice, the world ranking points are nice, but in the greater scheme of things, going to 4Cs is not going to make the career of a skater who's already in the top 12 in the world (and factoring in the lost training time, the travel time, the potential injuries from training jetlagged, it might even harm their careers).
I like 4Cs as an opportunity for the less experienced skaters from the "powerful" ISU countries to gain points that will move them onto the GP (case in point, Jeremy Abbott) and for the developing countries to use as competition experience for both their skaters and their judges. And I don't see any problem for it being just over a week after US Nationals, if the skaters who are going to 4Cs aren't planning to go to Worlds. It's a great opportunity for skaters who are looking to move up in the standings, but for skaters who are already at the top, there doesn't seem to be any real incentive to go, and there are a lot of reasons not to go.
I completely agree with ElFuego's post.
And just a point to remember: the ISU cannot do away with 4CC and still give ISU ranking points to Europeans. That would cause all the non-European skaters who do not get to go to Worlds to gradually slip way down in the ISU rankings, and would affect their ability to get future GP assignments. The non-European "B" skaters would slip out of the top 24, and wouldn't be guaranteed at least one GP event.
Anyone who gets less than 2 GP assignments is put on a subsititute list, based on the rank on the previous Season's Best list. But how do skaters get on that list? By participation in ISU championships (4CC, for non-European skaters) or the GP.
So with a low ISU Ranking plus not being on the Season's Best list, the "B" level skaters would be relegated to "B" Internationals and never get a chance to compete with the world's best, while the low-ranked Euro skaters would still be in the limelight.
And just a point to remember: the ISU cannot do away with 4CC and still give ISU ranking points to Europeans. That would cause all the non-European skaters who do not get to go to Worlds to gradually slip way down in the ISU rankings, and would affect their ability to get future GP assignments. The non-European "B" skaters would slip out of the top 24, and wouldn't be guaranteed at least one GP event.
Anyone who gets less than 2 GP assignments is put on a subsititute list, based on the rank on the previous Season's Best list. But how do skaters get on that list? By participation in ISU championships (4CC, for non-European skaters) or the GP.
So with a low ISU Ranking plus not being on the Season's Best list, the "B" level skaters would be relegated to "B" Internationals and never get a chance to compete with the world's best, while the low-ranked Euro skaters would still be in the limelight.
Yes. The federations have that power and not the ISU. The federations also have the power to NOT send skaters to Worlds for whatever reason (GBR last season, for example).
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But they'd have no opportunity to compete at Nationals and possibly qualify for the world team. I suppose they could be offered the choice of Nationals or 4Cs and decide which they preferred.
(Note that in the early years of the the junior world championships in the 1970s they were often held at the same time as US Nationals, and so the US did not send a team some years or sent skaters who did not get to compete at Nationals that year. E.g., Rosalynn Sumners was sent as the previous year's novice national champion and won the junior world title but never competed at Nationals as a junior.)
Right. For all the reasons ElFuego lists. And the same would largely apply to Canada and Japan as well.
Anyway, when I was asking about fairness of holding Euros and 4Cs at the same time, I was thinking more of moving Euros later, not nationals earlier.
I think it's more than that though. The plan to create Four Continents came about at the same time that the ISU started offering prize money at their championships; it just took a few more years to get it implemented. If European skaters had the opportunity to earn prize money at a continental championship, it was only fair to offer the same opportunity for skaters from other countries.
Israel? Israeli skaters compete at Europeans. (That's a whole other discussion.) Plus there have been few at the same level as the top skaters from the US, Canada, Japan, and China.
It can help get them into the top in the world rankings, which in turn will make the difference between getting Grand Prix assignments or not the following season, especially if they haven't been on the Grand Prix before or haven't been to Worlds or happened to skate below par at Worlds.
I expect that part of the reason why the top US and Canadian dance and pair teams have gone to 4Cs more often than the singles skaters is that they haven't in fact had as many obligations/opportunities to compete (or skate shows) and earn money at other times during the year because so many of the invitational extra competitions have been focused primarily or solely on singles.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2005
I was going to suggest that if the only wasy to quallify for worlds was through 4CC and Europeans(take top 24 skaters from each event) 4CC would become a must event and more important than nationals(of course federations will continue to us nationals to pick skaters for the 4CC). I then realize this is completely unfair. 66% of fedrations are Europeans members while only 33% are not. That is quite far from 50/50.
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
The point of the 4CC was more for equality with European Skaters. More TV would be icing on the cake.
The European Championship is legendary. With rapid trains service as well as frequent air flights between European cities does not present any problems.
Also many skaters and Federations boast of their prowess in winning Euros over an extended time. None of this exists in 4CCs. However, I do agree with you regarding it's a chance for 2nd tier skaters to win medals for ISU purposes. With no podium finish for the Mens Division in Tokyo, only two skaters go to Worlds this year.
I'm having senior moments and I forget what qualifies for number of skaters to go to Worlds.
Podium plus 4th place gets 3
A total of 21 points garnered from other placements gets 2
Every country gets at least 1.
Is the above correct?
Joe
Every country gets 1, yes.
Otherwise, you just need to add the placements together of the top two skaters, 1-13 points, gets 3 skaters the next season; 14-28 gets 2; over 28 gets 1. Skaters get the number they finish if they finish in the top 16; they get 16 points if they qualify for the freeskate but finish 17th-24th (25th if the home country skater does the free skate); and 18 points if they didn't qualify for the free skate.
So for a 2 or 3 person team, if the top two skaters (or the two skaters) 9th and 4th (4+9=13), they get 3 spots for the next year, same as a country that had its top two skaters finish 1st and 2nd. It doesn't matter where the 3rd skater places (if there is a 3rd skater). If the top two skaters finish 7th and 8th (7+8=15), then they can only send 2 skaters the next year. If the top two skaters finish 1st and 13th (1+13=14) they can only send 2 the next year. If the top two skaters finish 15th and 16th, they can only send 1 the next year.
If a team only had 1 skater in the first place, then the skater must finish 1 or 2 to get 3 spots the next year, or finish 3 -10th to get 2.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Call me dumb but I forgot where Evan Lysacek ended up in last Worlds. Did he do better than 13th? What would the total be for Evan and Johnny?
Joe
Joe
Evan was 5, Johnny was 8, together they equal 13.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Thanks Dave. (World Results are not as easy to find now,at least for me.}
Joe
Joe
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2003
Why is it again that 4CCs are held when they are? Why aren't they, say, December?
Junior Worlds used to be in December, but they moved it to beginning of March and moved the Grand Prix Finals (senior, and sometimes junior) to December.
Many countries hold their nationals in December and January, so holding 4Cs in December would mean it would conflict with some and come before Nationals for most, making it difficult for those federations to choose a team for that season's continental championship.
Early February seems like the best time to me, except in Olympic years.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
gkelly - Nothing wrong with February as long as there are no complaints about top tier skaters skipping it after Nats and before Worlds. The best way to get to Carnegie Hall is to practice, practice, practice. 
Joe
Joe
Also, it's not unknown for top-tier skaters to skip Europeans.
Obviously many have withdrawn and in some cases been replaced because of injury or illness. Or haven't been assigned because their federations wanted to give someone else the opportunity.
But sometimes the skater could have competed and chose not to to protect an injury for a more important upcoming competition (e.g., Kulik in 1998). Or just didn't feel like competing (Lambiel last year). Not sure which of those categories Grishuk/Platov in 1995 would fall under; maybe both.
Obviously many have withdrawn and in some cases been replaced because of injury or illness. Or haven't been assigned because their federations wanted to give someone else the opportunity.
But sometimes the skater could have competed and chose not to to protect an injury for a more important upcoming competition (e.g., Kulik in 1998). Or just didn't feel like competing (Lambiel last year). Not sure which of those categories Grishuk/Platov in 1995 would fall under; maybe both.
