2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[lopsilceci]

Alina Zagitova -> lovely skater, great Olympic Champion, but her Phantom SP in 2018-19 for me was one of the worst Phantom programs i recall and almost entirely due to the choreography/composition: too many cuts for a SP and the sounds added for such a classic when you really shouldn't rework all that much, also the stops mid-program in a short program, one second she is angry and punches with shattered glasses sounds (???), the second after happy "think of me" section, 5 seconds ending standing still... it was a lot. At some point i feel like you also need to respect the source material especially when you go classical.

By "respect the source material", you mean doing the exact same thing everyone does to classical pieces?

I like that Daniil at least dares to try things that nobody else tries, especially with warhorses everyone has skated to. I agree, it doesn't always result in the best programs but at least his programs are refreshing and unique in some ways and reflect his own style. Sometimes the results are masterpieces, like Alina's Black Swan program; who would have thought about combining Swan Lake music with Moonlight music? It worked so well!
Phantom might not be Alina's best SP, but I think she managed to understand it and "sell" it by the end of the season. I don't think anyone could have skated such a difficult program as well as she did.

 

[lesnar001]

By "respect the source material", you mean doing the exact same thing everyone does to classical pieces?

I like that Daniil at least dares to try things that nobody else tries, especially with warhorses everyone has skated to. I agree, it doesn't always result in the best programs but at least his programs are refreshing and unique in some ways and reflect his own style. Sometimes the results are masterpieces, like Alina's Black Swan program; who would have thought about combining Swan Lake music with Moonlight music? It worked so well!
Phantom might not be Alina's best SP, but I think she managed to understand it and "sell" it by the end of the season. I don't think anyone could have skated such a difficult program as well as she did.

I actually really liked POTO
But I'm not familiar with the musical itself - so I had no reference point.

On the other hand, I can't count the number of times I have cringed over awkward music cuts in Rachmaninoff's 2nd Piano Concerto.

PS - I agree about the "Moonlight" section for Black Swan.
Without that, it would have just been another in a very long list of Swan Lake skating program music.

 

[Mawwerg]

I prefer The Mystery of the Yellow Room to The Phantom of the Opera.

 

[Tolstoj]

By "respect the source material", you mean doing the exact same thing everyone does to classical pieces?

I like that Daniil at least dares to try things that nobody else tries, especially with warhorses everyone has skated to. I agree, it doesn't always result in the best programs but at least his programs are refreshing and unique in some ways and reflect his own style. Sometimes the results are masterpieces, like Alina's Black Swan program; who would have thought about combining Swan Lake music with Moonlight music? It worked so well!
Phantom might not be Alina's best SP, but I think she managed to understand it and "sell" it by the end of the season. I don't think anyone could have skated such a difficult program as well as she did.

You can try new things while not destroying the piece.

The 3 issues i have with that program as explained other times here are:

1) The music editing -> 3 music cuts + effects sounds (why?) was a lot for a SHORT program, let alone they are taken from completely different parts of the musical, it could have been better as a free skate if anything, or just pick one of the three and focus on that one.

2) For a SHORT program it has 3 stops if you include the stare at the end with 3 seconds left. That's a lot.

3) The overall lack of flow, the steps sequence has like 4-5 waltz jumps to hide it but it's there, it looks messy. None of the positions are held, watch Satoko's SP on that same season, the emotions throughout the stsq and at the end of her she holds a lunge (and a huge series of twizzles right after), that is a moment.

Then yes the transitions are difficult, the contents are there, the lutz-loop was impressive and the spins are great. But it looks like quantity over quality in terms of skating for me.

If i have to mention another POTO program, i think Akiko Suzuki's POTO was above and beyond this despite not being as difficult.

Again, this is my opinion, you can rightfully disagree, now watchout all the russians being angry anyway.

 

[ancientpeas]

I don't ever want to see another POTO ever. In a world full of music why do we have to hear the same 20 pieces over and over and over again.

 

[zounger]

3) The overall lack of flow,

You left the best for last. You are confusing me is it 5 or 3 seconds in the end? In your next reply shall I expect 1?

 

[Tolstoj]

You left the best for last. You are confusing me is it 5 or 3 seconds in the end? In your next reply shall I expect 1?

It's true her lack of flow in that program has always been an issue in my opinion. The whole program is full of stops and waltz jumps because she'd lose so much speed otherwise.

It's really all the contents crammed together even though they don't fit, skate doesn't look smooth at all, and like i said i think most of it comes from the choreography cause her Black Swan, Me Voy and Samson & Delilah programs are much better.

The stare at the end is i think 3 seconds, it looks like forever, any stops in a program always look like that especially in a short program where in my opinion you should use every second since there is not much time.

You said she had the best stsq of that season, so i don't think there is much to discuss here, completely different tastes i guess.

 

[Mawwerg]

I think it's all just a matter of personal preferences. For example I dislike voiceovers in Evgenia's and can not stand singer's voice in Alina's Me Voy, however POTO sound effects do not bother me at all. So I rewatch it quite frequently and never return to Evgenia's 2017 FS or this season Alina's SP.

 

[TallyT]

Poaching Eteris talent for 2 years has to piss her off to kingdom come. She needs to the demand the Federation clamp down on this or she should threaten to leave Russia and return to America and coach a dynasty here and be paid millions and millions and millions of dollars to do so securing hers and her daughters futures. Eteri has lived in America for many years and her daughter was born in the good old USA. I personally think she should make this move after the next Winter Olympics whenever the hell that's going to be. Hopefully 2022. But she owes Russia absolutely nothing. Russia owes her big time. Where would Russian figure skating be without this great coach? Think about that and think about what she's really worth to the Russian Federation. Having Sasha stolen from her after making her an all time great spectacular jumping talent has gotten Eteri to open the door. If Aliona or Anna or Kamila leave or get poached away with promises of major money EG will have one foot out the door. Who could blame her? You can't teach what she has as a coach. She takes these kids from scratch and makes them grave along with their talent and hard work. Eteri does not take made skaters she makes them. Think of it like this, EG. cooks the entire Thanksgiving dinner and dessert whereas some people just make a dessert. EG has the harder cooking and coaching job.

1. The skaters are not Tutberidze's property nor her servants. They repay her very nicely thank you in the glory and prestige she has accumulated through their successes (oh, and in the money she gets from the government or fees, whatever). She should not have a right to demand the government somehow force them to stay where they are not happy.

2. Her current methods would not work in the US, they are - quite properly - designed for a country with a fiercely competitive deep field, a specific sporting and teacher-pupil mindset and very different rules and arrangements for underage sports elite. She'd have to either completely revamp everything she does, and doing that before 2022 is not going to be even remotely possible (so where would these millions you talk of come from?), or she would fail.

3. Can you even imagine the apocalypse in Russian fandom if Tutberidze decamped? The abuse Medvedeva went through would be snowflake soft in comparison. Why should she do that to herself?

I may not be her follower, but I acknowledge her intelligence and drive, and if - if - the production line/burnout system she has refined became unsuccessful, or if she starts losing too many of the skaters she wants to keep (which is unlikely) and can't replace them (which is even more so) I have no doubt she would work to adapt and change.

 

[Scott512]

1. The skaters are not Tutberidze's property nor her servants. They repay her very nicely thank you in the glory and prestige she has accumulated through their successes (oh, and in the money she gets from the government or fees, whatever). She should not have a right to demand the government somehow force them to stay where they are not happy.

2. Her current methods would not work in the US, they are - quite properly - designed for a country with a fiercely competitive deep field, a specific sporting and teacher-pupil mindset and very different rules and arrangements for underage sports elite. She'd have to either completely revamp everything she does, and doing that before 2022 is not going to be even remotely possible (so where would these millions you talk of come from?), or she would fail.

3. Can you even imagine the apocalypse in Russian fandom if Tutberidze decamped? The abuse Medvedeva went through would be snowflake soft in comparison. Why should she do that to herself?

I may not be her follower, but I acknowledge her intelligence and drive, and if - if - the production line/burnout system she has refined became unsuccessful, or if she starts losing too many of the skaters she wants to keep (which is unlikely) and can't replace them (which is even more so) I have no doubt she would work to adapt and change.

Your last paragraph says it all. EG can coach a great technical skater like Alina or the most beautiful skater in the world like Aliona or Anna Ballerina sort of in between them or Sasha the greatest jumper ever and obviously Yulia and evgenia all-time greats. She coaches the skaters and they are all different some are very different and all the ones I named have achieved greatness. Eteri can bring that to anyone's figure skating Federation. People think she has a cookie cutter Factory in ladies figure skating but all the ladies are named are very different with different skating styles and she brought them all to the top.

 

[lopsilceci]

You can try new things while not destroying the piece.

The 3 issues i have with that program as explained other times here are:

1) The music editing -> 3 music cuts + effects sounds (why?) was a lot for a SHORT program, let alone they are taken from completely different parts of the musical, it could have been better as a free skate if anything, or just pick one of the three and focus on that one.

2) For a SHORT program it has 3 stops if you include the stare at the end with 3 seconds left. That's a lot.

3) The overall lack of flow, the steps sequence has like 4-5 waltz jumps to hide it but it's there, it looks messy. None of the positions are held, watch Satoko's SP on that same season, the emotions throughout the stsq and at the end of her she holds a lunge (and a huge series of twizzles right after), that is a moment.

Then yes the transitions are difficult, the contents are there, the lutz-loop was impressive and the spins are great. But it looks like quantity over quality in terms of skating for me.

If i have to mention another POTO program, i think Akiko Suzuki's POTO was above and beyond this despite not being as difficult.

Again, this is my opinion, you can rightfully disagree, now watchout all the russians being angry anyway.

You can't separate difficulty from Alina's programs. In POTO, apart from the technical difficulty of her layout, I think the music cuts and quick changes in emotion are an extra layer of that difficulty they were going for. In this case, Alina had the challenge of matching her movements/expressions to the different emotions, I think she did a good job.

I watched the Akiko Suzuki program you mentioned, but I must admit I wasn't very impressed. Not my taste I guess. I still prefer Alina's POTO.
I do agree that Satoko does lyrical style programs very well

 

[dunffvanstorn]

i agree with you, i only wish this would have been made clear in your initial post. i understand what you are trying to say now. it was very vague and not worded in a way that would have generated a positive reaction and was misconstrued, hence the nature of the posts in response.

English is not my first Language, I have some difficulties with it.


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[TallyT]

Your last paragraph says it all. EG can coach a great technical skater like Alina or the most beautiful skater in the world like Aliona or Anna Ballerina sort of in between them or Sasha the greatest jumper ever and obviously Yulia and evgenia all-time greats. She coaches the skaters and they are all different some are very different and all the ones I named have achieved greatness. Eteri can bring that to anyone's figure skating Federation. People think she has a cookie cutter Factory in ladies figure skating but all the ladies are named are very different with different skating styles and she brought them all to the top.

No, sorry, they aren't that different except to hardcore fans. That wasn't at all what I meant. There is an Eteri style and because the girls are not encouraged to do their own thing or bring their own tastes to bear they are as alike as any product from a similar sport or entertainment line. And having Gleikhengauz (I will not join in the discussion on his ear for music) and the competent but undistinguished costumers the team seem to love doesn't help.

But that is not a problem - look at K-Pop from an outside point of view. As long as they fit the line, get the medals, and are able to be replaced when necessary, which they clearly are, it's not Tutberidze's problem. They may not win, the brutal truth is most of her - of any coach's - students don't, but she does.

I'm still a little puzzled as to where you think this outpouring of millions of dollars would come from if she moved? Even Raf - who coaches the US's biggest skater - is on a flat (high, but still not that high) fee. And going north, even Brian - who coaches the only current skater in the world who probably has multi-millions to his name - is on a higher flat fee. And neither federation is likely to want or be able to make up the difference you see???

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

In POTO, apart from the technical difficulty of her layout, I think the music cuts and quick changes in emotion are an extra layer of that difficulty they were going for. In this case, Alina had the challenge of matching her movements/expressions to the different emotions, I think she did a good job.

While it is more difficult, and Alina does a good job handling the changes, I don't think multiple music/style changes are something the judging system should reward because it encourages busier programs not because they're more captivating, but because they're more difficult. A backflip is harder than a 2T, but a choice has been made to reward the easier element, so why not reward more cohesive programs by not awarding points for added choreography that ultimately detracts from the performance? None of this is a knock at Alina, because I have liked most of her programs, but we're seeing an overall trend of packing programs with difficulty that doesn't add anything to the performance.

 

[dunffvanstorn]

Let me have an objection. You say:

"I think it’s creepy to defend or to say bad things about people you don’t even know im person."

But you do exactly that. Just an example. In this comment you:

- say definitely not positive things (how much "bad" it is a matter of personal opinion) - conclusion about skaters who you "don’t even know in person".
- defend a person you also "don’t even know in person".

Of course you have the right for the opinion, but everybody has it, and your opinions you publish here are mostly based on the same information the others have, only the conclusions everybody has his own. We could only discuss whose conclusions are closer to reality, not that your posts are somewhere else in the sense of quality. The conclusions you made in the comment linked above are obviously based primarily on your personal preference, which is shown e.g. by the fact you primarily speak of Nastya Tarakanova as "a very emotional girl" and other things, you made a conclusion "Pluschenko never had a top skater, in top shape coming to him". In other comment you said "please stop acting like Eteri is the only good coach in the world". I can say with all dignity that 90 % of skaters didn't come to Eteri as "top skaters, in top shape". Examples were given countless times. So, you do conclusions with a strong lean towards your subjective preferences, that make you emphasize some things and sideline the others.

So, that's my conclusion about your request for more objectivity here. Not that others, incl. me perhaps, were role models in objectivity, but in all honesty I don't feel users here would be worse than you in this request.

As a final thought, I would also ask the people to not act as if Daniil was the worst choreographer int he world (and if you blame me that you didn't say precisely that than I say that nobody also said "Eteri is the only good coach in the world").

Howgh.

You certainly have a lot of time to have found my comments regarding Pluschenko, right? [emoji23]


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[dunffvanstorn]

Let me have an objection. You say:

"I think it’s creepy to defend or to say bad things about people you don’t even know im person."

But you do exactly that. Just an example. In this comment you:

- say definitely not positive things (how much "bad" it is a matter of personal opinion) - conclusion about skaters who you "don’t even know in person".
- defend a person you also "don’t even know in person".

Of course you have the right for the opinion, but everybody has it, and your opinions you publish here are mostly based on the same information the others have, only the conclusions everybody has his own. We could only discuss whose conclusions are closer to reality, not that your posts are somewhere else in the sense of quality. The conclusions you made in the comment linked above are obviously based primarily on your personal preference, which is shown e.g. by the fact you primarily speak of Nastya Tarakanova as "a very emotional girl" and other things, you made a conclusion "Pluschenko never had a top skater, in top shape coming to him". In other comment you said "please stop acting like Eteri is the only good coach in the world". I can say with all dignity that 90 % of skaters didn't come to Eteri as "top skaters, in top shape". Examples were given countless times. So, you do conclusions with a strong lean towards your subjective preferences, that make you emphasize some things and sideline the others.

So, that's my conclusion about your request for more objectivity here. Not that others, incl. me perhaps, were role models in objectivity, but in all honesty I don't feel users here would be worse than you in this request.

As a final thought, I would also ask the people to not act as if Daniil was the worst choreographer int he world (and if you blame me that you didn't say precisely that than I say that nobody also said "Eteri is the only good coach in the world").

Howgh.

If a skater changes coaches every year, the problem might be her or the coaches? That’s mathematics. The biggest probability is that the problem is her, and I’m not saying it in a mean way. I think AT is a lovely girl and skater and I wish her the best. When a patient asks me to change the treatment all the time, without much explanation, should I assume the treatment is the problem or the patient is?


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[dunffvanstorn]

Let me have an objection. You say:

"I think it’s creepy to defend or to say bad things about people you don’t even know im person."

But you do exactly that. Just an example. In this comment you:

- say definitely not positive things (how much "bad" it is a matter of personal opinion) - conclusion about skaters who you "don’t even know in person".
- defend a person you also "don’t even know in person".

Of course you have the right for the opinion, but everybody has it, and your opinions you publish here are mostly based on the same information the others have, only the conclusions everybody has his own. We could only discuss whose conclusions are closer to reality, not that your posts are somewhere else in the sense of quality. The conclusions you made in the comment linked above are obviously based primarily on your personal preference, which is shown e.g. by the fact you primarily speak of Nastya Tarakanova as "a very emotional girl" and other things, you made a conclusion "Pluschenko never had a top skater, in top shape coming to him". In other comment you said "please stop acting like Eteri is the only good coach in the world". I can say with all dignity that 90 % of skaters didn't come to Eteri as "top skaters, in top shape". Examples were given countless times. So, you do conclusions with a strong lean towards your subjective preferences, that make you emphasize some things and sideline the others.

So, that's my conclusion about your request for more objectivity here. Not that others, incl. me perhaps, were role models in objectivity, but in all honesty I don't feel users here would be worse than you in this request.

As a final thought, I would also ask the people to not act as if Daniil was the worst choreographer int he world (and if you blame me that you didn't say precisely that than I say that nobody also said "Eteri is the only good coach in the world").

Howgh.

I’ve been trained in ballet and contemporary dancing, I can have my own opinion about Daniil’s choreography, which, most of the times, is bad. Sometimes, he has an amazing moment and creates magic, but most of his choregraphy doesn’t match my personal taste. I can say whatever I want about it, I’m not offending the guy or spreading hate, I don’t even know him. I don’t have to like his choreography.
(I edited this because I checked the word I used on the dictionary and it he a connotation I didn’t mean).

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[lopsilceci]

While it is more difficult, and Alina does a good job handling the changes, I don't think multiple music/style changes are something the judging system should reward because it encourages busier programs not because they're more captivating, but because they're more difficult. A backflip is harder than a 2T, but a choice has been made to reward the easier element, so why not reward more cohesive programs by not awarding points for added choreography that ultimately detracts from the performance? None of this is a knock at Alina, because I have liked most of her programs, but we're seeing an overall trend of packing programs with difficulty that doesn't add anything to the performance.

I feel like this still falls in the ballpark of subjectivity and personal taste.

In my opinion, adding difficulty is a good thing, not a bad thing, and if a skater is able to do a lot of difficult elements and still mantain some level of emotional connection to the music, even better, and I don't see why that skater shouldn't be rewarded by the judges over another skater who does easier elements and has an overall easier layout.

 

[lopsilceci]

No, sorry, they aren't that different except to hardcore fans. That wasn't at all what I meant. There is an Eteri style and because the girls are not encouraged to do their own thing or bring their own tastes to bear they are as alike as any product from a similar sport or entertainment line. And having Gleikhengauz (I will not join in the discussion on his ear for music) and the competent but undistinguished costumers the team seem to love doesn't help.

I disagree about this point. At the beginning of the season everyone was complaining about Aliona Kostornaya using Twilight music for her program, with arguments going from "ew, those movies were lame", "why would they force angel Aliona to perform as a vampire", "Daniil has the taste of an early 2000s teenage girl" etc.
Well, turns out, Aliona actually really likes vampires, she doesn't care about being seen as an angel skating to beautiful soft music only and all those people that complained about this music when the programs were announced now like this program.

Also, I think you're right that there IS an Eteri skater style, and that style consists of doing very difficult things, consistency and trying out things that nobody else does.

 

[TallyT]

I disagree about this point. At the beginning of the season everyone was complaining about Aliona Kostornaya using Twilight music for her program.

You really think that - and the version of the GOT music that Trusova got - is outside the acceptable parameters of the team line???