Will Asada or Kim match Kwan's record for consecutive world podium finishes?

[slutskayafan21]

Well, I will remember Sasha not because she was the "bridemaid" of Kwan but because she had qualities no other had, like her amazing extention and dramatic interpretation. But it's true that not many remember runner-ups unless they have someting REALLY special in them.

I will remember her for the reasons she was always 2nd, 3rd, 4th, at the biggest events from 2002-2006 instead of 1st. "oh that was so wonderful, but for........ that 1 or 2......." She will be remembered as the epitome of almost time and time again.

 

[GoldMedalist]

She will be remembered as a beautiful skater.

Cohen was more consistent than people give her credit for too. Even though she never accomplished that single "perfect" long program, the reality is that a personal best competition for most skaters includes making a mistake or two. With Cohen, you could count on her to make just 1 or 2 mistakes and also display greater overall quality than almost everyone else. An "average" skate by Cohen was better than a personal best from 95% of the rest of the field.

 

[Jaana]

Michelle has a lot of numbers beside her name, but to me her most remarkable feat was standing on the podium at Worlds 9 years in a row, 1996 - 2004.

We have to go back four decades to Sonia Henie (11 consecutive podium finishes, 1926 to 1936) for a better streak.

Mao Asada and Yu-na Kim are off to a good start, both one-for-one in the first World Championship for which they were age eligible.

Do you think these two stars of the present will continue to dominate for the next decade?

Well, besides 11 World medals (10 of them golden ones) Henie also had 3 Olympic gold medals, so besides medal quantity she also had a lot more medal quality than Kwan. Kwan has a good record with her 5 World gold medals, but the Olympic gold lacks in her collection of medals.

As I also happen to believe that quantity never replaces quality, I hope that these new stars Asada and Kim will have one or two World gold medals and either or them or they both become an Olympic champion. There is enough quantity and quality for them!

 

[demarinis5]

Well, Henie also had 3 Olympic gold medals, so besides medal quantity she also had medal quality and Kwan did not win at the Olympics. But as I also happen to believe that quantity never replaces quality, I hope that these new stars Asada and Kim will have one or two World gold medals and either or both become an Olympic gold medal. There is quantity and quality for them!

So are you saying that Kwan's record is somewhat tarnished because she
has quanity and not quality. Kwan will go down in the skating history books for her era for what she accomplished in figure skating just as Henie did. Kwan not winning an Olympic gold medal does not mean her record is not quality imo far from it.

 

[Enero]

She will be remembered as a beautiful skater.

Cohen was more consistent than people give her credit for too. Even though she never accomplished that single "perfect" long program, the reality is that a personal best competition for most skaters includes making a mistake or two. With Cohen, you could count on her to make just 1 or 2 mistakes and also display greater overall quality than almost everyone else. An "average" skate by Cohen was better than a personal best from 95% of the rest of the field.

ITA! Well said.
I don't know where people get this idea from that you have to be perfect all the time. Yes, 98% of the time MK was "perfect" and so was Tara during her brief eligible career, but for the most part having a perfect skate seems to be a rare occurence. How many times throughout the years have we seen great skaters consistently miss at least one jump either with a fall, a step out or a downgrade from a triple to a double or single? Consistently making a mistake is more common than being consistently perfect.

That said, I think anything is possible with these skaters. I mean who would've thought Tara and Sarah would've won Olympic gold or even that Michelle Kwan (when she first started) would break so many records, but she did. Why put limitations on either of these girls. Anything is possible, heck who knows, Kimmie may beat Michelle's record. She won worlds at 16 right?? She could compete for two maybe three more olympic cycles and during that time consistently make it on the worlds podium.

 

[rtureck]

ITA! Well said.
I don't know where people get this idea from that you have to be perfect all the time.

People get idea that Cohen has to be perfect all the time, because her camp hyped her to be the best skater who ever laced up a pr of skates with the self appointed trade mark moves etc. Even Cohen herself said she is a perfectionist. Being second, third, fourth is no shame, but when the hype is so great it generates expectations that she has to live up to.

Consistently making a mistake is more common than being consistently perfect.

for most skaters, but great ones don't. You may add Kristi to MK and Tara.

Kimmie may beat Michelle's record. She won worlds at 16 right?? She could compete for two maybe three more olympic cycles and during that time consistently make it on the worlds podium.

Maybe MK's senior record, but not her total record that include jr world champ.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Consistently making a mistake is more common than being consistently perfect.

for most skaters, but great ones don't. You may add Kristi to MK and Tara.

What is "perfect". Kristi's spins and spirals were not nearly as good as Sasha's and I'm 100% sure that they wouldn't have been even if she had trained under CoP. Skating clean isn't the be-all-end-all.

 

[Jaana]

So are you saying that Kwan's record is somewhat tarnished because she has quanity and not quality. Kwan will go down in the skating history books for her era for what she accomplished in figure skating just as Henie did. Kwan not winning an Olympic gold medal does not mean her record is not quality imo far from it.

I did not say that Kwan´s record is tarnished, but without an Olympic gold medal it just is less impressive than what it could have been. In skating history Kwan of course will be favourably regarded for all her skating accomplishments, but in the same connection the lack of Olympic gold medal is something that will also be remembered.

In my opinion e.g. Witt´s accomplisments are more impressive with her two Olympic gold medals, four World gold medals and six European gold medals. All those make her an all-golden lady, so to speak. In the same way e.g. skaters that have won only one gold medal but won it in each major competition are to be regarded as all-golden ladies or men and as great athletes, too. That is not quantity, but it sure is quality...

 

[Mathman]

This thread is not about whether Kwan was better than Henie or Witt. It is about Sasha.

No wait, I mean it is about the rarity of long streaks of excellence in sports. Counting the two Olympics, Michelle finished on the podium for 11 straight major events. I didn't look it up, but I bet Tiger Woods doesn't have a streak of finishing in the top ten in 11 straight majors in golf.

Joe Dimaggio's streak of hitting safely in 56 straight games may never be matched, not even in the steroid era. This is not the same as asserting that Dimaggio was better than Babe Ruth, just a fact.

It's a hard thing to do. The odds are against you, even in the case of dominant athletes like Asada and Kim. I think it is more likely that Asada will win two Olympic gold medals than that she will make the worlds podium every year for the next 8 years. The probabiltiy that a even the greatest competitor will never have a bad day (or an injury) is just too slight.

If Asada wins the OGM in 2010 and 2014 she will be remembered as one of the greatest in history, right up there with Henie and Witt. She will be Babe Ruth. I'm just not so sure that she will be Joe Dimaggio, too.

 

[attyfan]

...
No wait, I mean it is about the rarity of long streaks of excellence in sports. Counting the two Olympics, Michelle finished on the podium for 11 straight major events. I didn't look it up, but I bet Tiger Woods doesn't have a streak of finishing in the top ten in 11 straight majors in golf.

Joe Dimaggio's streak of hitting safely in 56 straight games may never be matched, not even in the steroid era. This is not the same as asserting that Dimaggio was better than Babe Ruth, just a fact.
...

Do Nats count as a major event?

Seriously -- if medaling at an event is like getting a hit in baseball; getting the gold is hitting a HR; and getting the OGM is hitting it out of the park at the World Series, then Michelle has a batting average of 1000 percent over eleven years -- and this isn't just major events, either. Her gold average (at Worlds and Olys only) is over the .400 range. Pretty hard to match -- especially in the current climate of injuries.

 

[slutskayafan21]

This thread is not about whether Kwan was better than Henie or Witt. It is about Sasha.

No wait, I mean it is about the rarity of long streaks of excellence in sports. Counting the two Olympics, Michelle finished on the podium for 11 straight major events. I didn't look it up, but I bet Tiger Woods doesn't have a streak of finishing in the top ten in 11 straight majors in golf.

Joe Dimaggio's streak of hitting safely in 56 straight games may never be matched, not even in the steroid era. This is not the same as asserting that Dimaggio was better than Babe Ruth, just a fact.

It's a hard thing to do. The odds are against you, even in the case of dominant athletes like Asada and Kim. I think it is more likely that Asada will win two Olympic gold medals than that she will make the worlds podium every year for the next 8 years. The probabiltiy that a even the greatest competitor will never have a bad day (or an injury) is just too slight.

If Asada wins the OGM in 2010 and 2014 she will be remembered as one of the greatest in history, right up there with Henie and Witt. She will be Babe Ruth. I'm just not so sure that she will be Joe Dimaggio, too.

If Asada continues to mature and build on her difficulty she could well be a skater who still finds up on the podium in some vacinity even those rare times she has a really bad event for herself. At Worlds she had a monstrous error (under COP scoring) in the short, and some other mistakes in the long, and not only still nearly won, but probably scored highly enough to medal even had everyone else gone cleanly.

 

[bekalc]

Alexei MIshin said this and I agree with him, right now Mao Asada and Yu-na Kim are the best skaters in the world. They are in class above just about anyone else.

Both girls made mistakes at last year's worlds, and well that cost them the championship, but both ended up on the podium.

Talents like Yu-na and Mao don't come up every couple of years. If they both wanted to, I don't see why they couldn't have as many world medals as Irina and Michelle have.

Whose going to challenge them?

Kostner-extremely inconsistent.
Meissner- does not have consistent 3/3's and doesn't have their presentation skills.
Caroline Zhang-while she had consistent triples as a junior. Her technique is bad, and I think it's questionable if she will be able to have a consistent 3/3. Her technique could cause her major problems as she grows, and could hamper that 3/3.

Mirai Nagasu- love her as a skater. But well her jumping has clearly some problems. So many of her jumps this season have been downgraded.....Unless she can get that under control, she's no threat.

Rachael Flatt-doesn't have their speed, triple/triples get downgraded a lot.

I think that Mao and Yu-na are going to be dominating this sport.

 

[ks777]

Alexei MIshin said this and I agree with him, right now Mao Asada and Yu-na Kim are the best skaters in the world. They are in class above just about anyone else.

Both girls made mistakes at last year's worlds, and well that cost them the championship, but both ended up on the podium.

Talents like Yu-na and Mao don't come up every couple of years. If they both wanted to, I don't see why they couldn't have as many world medals as Irina and Michelle have.

Whose going to challenge them?

Kostner-extremely inconsistent.
Meissner- does not have consistent 3/3's and doesn't have their presentation skills.
Caroline Zhang-while she had consistent triples as a junior. Her technique is bad, and I think it's questionable if she will be able to have a consistent 3/3. Her technique could cause her major problems as she grows, and could hamper that 3/3.

Mirai Nagasu- love her as a skater. But well her jumping has clearly some problems. So many of her jumps this season have been downgraded.....Unless she can get that under control, she's no threat.

Rachael Flatt-doesn't have their speed, triple/triples get downgraded a lot.

I think that Mao and Yu-na are going to be dominating this sport.

You forgot someone, MIki Ando! She beat both Mao and Yuna.

 

[Kypma]

You forgot someone, MIki Ando! She beat both Mao and Yuna.

I'd actually say she beat each of them in one phase of the competition... at worlds, in the Sp Yu-Na was first, Miki third and Mao fifth, but then in the LP Mao was first, Miki second and Yu-Na fourth, so Miki didn't really beat them... her point total was greater. But that's my perspective...

Kypma

 

[attyfan]

I'd actually she beat each of them in one phase of the competition... at worlds, in the Sp Yu-Na was first, Miki third and Mao fifth, but then in the LP Mao was first, Miki second and Yu-Na fourth, so Miki didn't really beat them... her point total was greater. But that's my perspective...

Kypma

Miki, at least, was able to hold it together in all portions of the event to come out the over-all winner (IIRC, she did the same thing at SA) -- neither Mao nor Yu-Na will win a lot if they don't learn how to keep it going through both portions.

Does Miki have any injury problems? Miki, plus (in future years) good events from Caroline Zhang or Mirai could very easily prevent Mao or Yu-Na from reaching Michelle's streak (9 straight Worlds), even if Mao or Yu-Na do end up with a sizeable gold collection.

 

[Mathman]

Seriously -- if medaling at an event is like getting a hit in baseball; getting the gold is hitting a HR; and getting the OGM is hitting it out of the park at the World Series, then Michelle has a batting average of 1000 percent over eleven years -- and this isn't just major events, either. Her gold average (at Worlds and Olys only) is over the .400 range. Pretty hard to match -- especially in the current climate of injuries.

My favorite MK record is finishing first or second in all events 43 straight times from 1996 to 2001.

To show how tricky these records are, it would have been 50 straight except for some long forgotten cheesefest called the Centennial on Ice in 1996, where she finished third.

Even the prohibitive favorite doesn't always win. But Slutskayafan makes a good point that Asada and Kim are so far ahead of the field that they could mess up big time and still end up on the podium by default.

 

[attyfan]

...
Even the prohibitive favorite doesn't always win. But Slutskayafan makes a good point that Asada and Kim are so far ahead of the field that they could mess up big time and still end up on the podium by default.

Asada and Kim have both done one program really well, and another one badly; unusually good programs by a few others, could easily disrupt a streak. For example, one year, it might be Asada, Ando and Zhang; another it would be
Yu-Na, Mirai and Kostner. That the podium finsihes of Zhang and Mirai could (hypothetically) be due to a onetime "skate of their life" wouldn't alter the disruption of the streak.

After all, streaks in the Henie/Kwan mode are not the norm. It is very common for skaters to be "on-again, off-again" -- Irina Slutskaya, for example, did not make the World podium in '97, and Chen Lu didn't even get to the FS that year.

 

[bekalc]

You forgot someone, MIki Ando! She beat both Mao and Yuna.

I didn't forget her, the reason I didn't mention her was she was on the podium with them... I wouldn't be surprised if Miki makes a lot of podiums herself.

I think that Mao and Yu-na will make more podiums than they miss, and I also think both girls are capable of skating much better short/longs. In Yu-na's case especially, the girl was clearly injured at worlds.

Victor Petrenko had a huge streak as well if I recall.. Two Olympic medals, I think medals at 5 world championships? Alexei Yagudin and Plushenko have a lot of world medals too.

Honestly, I don't think streaks are that rare. Katerina Witt had a pretty big streak if I recall....I think that one of the reasons you don't see such huge streaks, is skaters don't stay around as long as let's say Michelle Kwan stayed.

 

[Lucy25]

Skaters just don't stick around too long nowadays. Staying eligible as long as Michelle did is quite unusual. I think Mao or Yu-na (or Kimmie or Miki) could have multiple titles if they stay in the game.

Someone earlier alluded to the fact that Mao doesn't do all the triples. I am tired of hearing that she "can" do them or that she is working on quads. I don't care that she can get tons of points in other ways without doing the jumps. As much as I love Mao's style, I can't take her truly seriously until she does them all.

 

[Enero]

People get idea that Cohen has to be perfect all the time, because her camp hyped her to be the best skater who ever laced up a pr of skates with the self appointed trade mark moves etc. Even Cohen herself said she is a perfectionist. Being second, third, fourth is no shame, but when the hype is so great it generates expectations that she has to live up to.

for most skaters, but great ones don't. You may add Kristi to MK and Tara.


Maybe MK's senior record, but not her total record that include jr world champ.

Ummm Kristi consistently had trouble with her salchow. She even fell out of it at the Albertville Olympics (and I believe she had trouble with it at Worlds that year), but does that make her less of a skater. Absolutely not.