The Missing Gold Olympic Medal
- Thread starter Joesitz (RIP)
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.Their accomplishments in the sport speak for themselves. Thank goodness they've stayed in the sport on the pro side for the long term.
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- Mar 22, 2004
Yeah, I've been saying this for a long time. Each olympics seems to get worse ratings than the one before.
The 2008 summer olympics might do a little to reverse that trend (as the Chinese government is maniacally determined to make them a political and cultural statement) but 2012? London? Are you kidding? They could hardly have picked a worse choice.
From the point of view of the viewer, there's just nothing very special anymore about the olympics.
There's too much competiton (in terms of spectacle and sport and media) now. Also, with no political subtext and the death of amateurism, it's devolved into just another overhyped show featuring overworked professionals delivering not very memorable performances. Yawn.
And as a bonus, the spectre of doping threatens to spoil every potentially inspiring moment and prevents the spectator from becoming emotionally involved.
In terms of skating, can anyone say the competitions in Turin were especially memorable? In three out of four contests the leaders were all but uncatchable by the time final round rolled by. That's never a good sign.
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- Mar 28, 2005
After Oksana won the Olympic Gold she was indeed the best skater in the World at the time, atleast as far as amateur skaters go. Who was better? Nancy Kerrigan who never won a World or Olympic title even once in her career, and the closest she came was that night? Lu Chen who at that point had never finished higher then 3rd at a World or Olympic event. Surya Bonaly who after her dissapointing 4th place finish had neither a World title (best finish was 2nd behind Baiul the previous year) or an Olympic medal. Winning the Olympic Gold to go along with her previous years World title, did absolutely cement Baiul as the best female skater in the world, atleast on the amateur side.
In Tara's defence she too was both reiging Olympic and World Champion after winning her Olympic Gold medal, not to mention the previous years National Champion (of course dethroned by Kwan that year) and the 2-time GP final Champion. I can still see people thinking Kwan was the best skater in the world, but Tara certainly backed up that big win with other ones over the best.
Hughes is the one that applies to most.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Excellent point. This is exactly the situation of Mao Asada and Yu-na Kim.
Well if I understand reiging, it was only a month or so that Tara was both World and Olympic Champion. She chose not to go to Worlds and Kwan won. So for the year leading up to the NEXT Worlds Lipinski was reigning Olympic Champion but Kwan was reigning World Champion.
Bauil and Lipinski never skated in the amature ranks after their OGM and Hughes probably shouldn't have.
You have to go back to Katrina Witt to find a lady who medaled at the four Worlds prior to her Olympic win (and that is only 1988). Kwan did it before 2002 and three before 1998. Sluteskya came close with three before 2002. In fact, unless I am mistaken both of these ladies are in a more elite group then even US Lady OGMedalist, two or more time Olympic medalists! When I look at the sport and see OGM have one good performance and then leave I wonder how much that one medal is really worth compared to ladies who have competed and won over long periods of time.
I think you can have a legacy without the Olympic gold medal..Michelle has one, so does Kurt Browning.
However, I think that someone like Yagudin and Plushenko, have a greater legacy than Browning, because they managed to win multiple world titles and the Olympic title.
The Olympic title is tough to win. It 's the price everyone wants to have, and as such those games carry a lot more pressure. . It is worth something, and someone who manages to have mutliple world titles, and Olympic gold medal is greater than someone who doesn't.
Sure injuries can play a role into it. But I don't think Michelle Kwan lost the Olympic gold in Salt Lake City due to injuries, you could argue that for Nagano, but you cannot argue that for Salt Lake.
The only time I'm willing to make an exception when it comes to Olympic gold is for extenuating circumstances. For example (this is another sport) but Svelana Khorkina in gymnastics. We don't know for sure, but if hadn't been for that terrible vaulting controversy, Khorkina would have more than likely won that Olympic games. She was clearly the best gymnast there.
I think that the Olympic games does mean something, and it should vault a skater like Yagudin over someone like Browning..... The same goes for Witt and Kwan.. And Katerina Witt had four world titles, not just four world medals. Honestly, I think it is extremely hard to be the favorite at the Olympic games and skate well. But there have been great skaters who have managed to do that. To quote Yagudin, it's not just another Worlds, its' the Olympics.
However, I think that someone like Yagudin and Plushenko, have a greater legacy than Browning, because they managed to win multiple world titles and the Olympic title.
The Olympic title is tough to win. It 's the price everyone wants to have, and as such those games carry a lot more pressure. . It is worth something, and someone who manages to have mutliple world titles, and Olympic gold medal is greater than someone who doesn't.
Sure injuries can play a role into it. But I don't think Michelle Kwan lost the Olympic gold in Salt Lake City due to injuries, you could argue that for Nagano, but you cannot argue that for Salt Lake.
The only time I'm willing to make an exception when it comes to Olympic gold is for extenuating circumstances. For example (this is another sport) but Svelana Khorkina in gymnastics. We don't know for sure, but if hadn't been for that terrible vaulting controversy, Khorkina would have more than likely won that Olympic games. She was clearly the best gymnast there.
I think that the Olympic games does mean something, and it should vault a skater like Yagudin over someone like Browning..... The same goes for Witt and Kwan.. And Katerina Witt had four world titles, not just four world medals. Honestly, I think it is extremely hard to be the favorite at the Olympic games and skate well. But there have been great skaters who have managed to do that. To quote Yagudin, it's not just another Worlds, its' the Olympics.
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- Oct 27, 2006
Although winning an Olympic gold medal is a great acomplishment, I don't think that it means you are the best. The Olympics are every 4 years. A skater can really be on that year and stink the rest of the time. There have been skaters that have won the gold and have not won a world championships. I hold world championships in regard much more since they happen ever year. Two skaters come to mind when I think of excellent skaters to never win a gold medal or Olympic medal for that matter.....Todd and Kurt. But they have won a world championship and are very highly respected and we all love them. And these are two guys who still skate unlike some other gold medalists or other olympic medalists in general.
IMHO
The OGM is a PERSONAL achievement. Of course the fans want it for their favorite skater, and it's also a media magnet (for a couple of months or so). But those who REALLY like the skater- the skater's TRUE fans- will not really care in the end. Skating is a weird, unique entity where some fans don't even care if the skater wins or not; they just like to watch them "do their thing". How's that for a sport?!
The OGM is a PERSONAL achievement. Of course the fans want it for their favorite skater, and it's also a media magnet (for a couple of months or so). But those who REALLY like the skater- the skater's TRUE fans- will not really care in the end. Skating is a weird, unique entity where some fans don't even care if the skater wins or not; they just like to watch them "do their thing". How's that for a sport?!
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
IMHO
The OGM is a PERSONAL achievement. Of course the fans want it for their favorite skater, and it's also a media magnet (for a couple of months or so). But those who REALLY like the skater- the skater's TRUE fans- will not really care in the end. Skating is a weird, unique entity where some fans don't even care if the skater wins or not; they just like to watch them "do their thing". How's that for a sport?!
For instance, Kurt Browning is a better skater than Alexei Yagudin. Why? He just is. Look at him skate, and you will see what I mean. Yagudin was a good skater, too, and he won many awards and medals, including an Olympic championship. Good for him!
I think that most people expect an OG medalist to "back up" that skate with other great ones (or at least with other great results) -- and, just as a skater with enough "back up" can get the fame and fortune normally associated with the OGM (Browning, Kwan are examples), so too, an OGM can get ignored if the "back up" isn't there. After all, I haven't seen the names of Alexei Urmanov or Sarah Hughes on any list of "recent skating legends" -- and Urmanov at least had a European title and won the "Championship Series" final, to back up his OGM -- which is more than Hughes ever accomplished. I've also seen more recent articles referring to Michelle as an OGM than even mentioning Sarah (unless the article is about Emily)
Yagudin was a good skater, too, and he won many awards and medals, including an Olympic championship. Good for him!
But Yagudin was the better competitor. And he had a consistent quad, something Browning didn't have.
This is a sport, and there are a lot of good skaters who didn't win titles at all.. For example Kostner is supposedly wonderful in practice, but she's not the best competitor.
Of course, Browning was a great competitor at worlds, but he was never very good at handling the Olympic pressure... Sure he was injured in 92, but in 94?
I think that's what people are forgetting, is that winning the Olympics is tougher than winning worlds. The pressure at the Olympics is immense.
Of course, a skater who wins multiple worlds a la Kwan is greater than Hughes. But a skater who can win multiple world titles and an Olympic gold medal, is greater than a skater with just multiple world titles.
I feel that people are starting to devalue the Olympic gold because Kwan/or one of their favorites didn't win it. But I don't think that's right. It's tough to win the Olympics, especially I think when your the overwhelming favorite. Few skaters can stand up to this pressure, and those who do, deserve credit for it.
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- Mar 28, 2005
One thing I hear often is something like : "well the Olympic Gold doesnt mean that much, I mean look at Kwan without an Olympic Gold, and look at Lipinski or Hughes, who has the better career and bigger legacy." To make such an argument though they have to dig up the least accomplished (especialy Hughes) Olympic Gold medalists in history to make a point which is a very deceiving way to potray it. It is very different to bring up examples of skaters who achieved alot of other great things along with winning the coveted Olympic Gold; like Fleming, Witt, Yamaguchi, Hamill, and still say the same thing.
Exactly, Sure sometimes unexpected people win the Olympic title. It doesn't mean that the Olympic title isn't valuable. The reason Hughes won is because Slutskaya and Kwan faltered under the Olympic pressure...
Look, at Irina's face going into long program in Torino, she looked terrified, and Irina was a two time world champion... Why was she so terrified, if the Olympics was just another competition, and winning was just the same as worlds. It's because most skaters dream of winning the Olympic gold much more so than a world title, and the Olympic gold medal is a very big deal.
Look, at Irina's face going into long program in Torino, she looked terrified, and Irina was a two time world champion... Why was she so terrified, if the Olympics was just another competition, and winning was just the same as worlds. It's because most skaters dream of winning the Olympic gold much more so than a world title, and the Olympic gold medal is a very big deal.
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- Mar 28, 2005
Oh I definitely agree on that. Lipinski was a World title holder, U.S title holder, 2 time GP final title holder. In fact in the 96-97 and 97-98 seasons she won 5 of the 6 World, GP final, U.S Championship, Olympics, that she entered, and was 2nd to Kwan in the other. Her record is head and shoulders above Hughes and her "shocking" victory in Nagano is far overblown IMO. Her biggest problem is obviously that she did not stay long enough.
Irina was definitely psyched out at Turin. She was not only under pressure to take her own already great career, and own place in skating history, up another level by winning the ultimate prize, similar to the pressure Kwan faces in an Olympics. She in addition was under the pressure of completing that Golden Sweep which was so hyped for months before the Olympics, and which there was so much pressure on the favored Russian skaters to achieve.
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- Mar 22, 2004
Yagudin was a good skater, too, and he won many awards and medals, including an Olympic championship. Good for him!
Browning is really an allround skater. He is the only singles skater to win worlds with figures (twice) and without (twice) an astounding feat considering how few skaters even medalled in both formats (of the top of my head I think it's just Petrenko and Ito) despite deep competitive fields.
He also gives every indication that he would have been a superlative ice dancer. (His probably just a little too small-framed for pairs).
Yagudin is a tremendously charismatic performer and great competitor but he's just not the all round skating talent that Browning is. (I can't imagine Yagudin in dance or pairs, how he would have done in figures is anybody's guess)
It completely agree that an Olympic win is worth something and it's a tough achievement to accomplish. Where we part ways, however, is with the idea that someone who has won Olympics is "better" than someone who hasn't. If for no other reason than that I think luck has a huge amount to do with the Olympic win.
I love both Yagudin and Browning. They both have their pluses and minuses. Browning is the better pro skater and the more versatile artist (the guy can skate successfully to anything), while Yagudin was a competitor extraordinare during his amateur career, and I firmly believe he'd still be skating amateur if it wasn't for his injury — he clearly loved it, thrived on the pressure and won Olympic gold. I just don't see the need to say one is better than the other.
Likewise, Witt was a great competitor, pulling it out when it mattered. She's also had an accomplished pro career, but of the two, I'd rather watch Kwan skate, and Kwan's past performances are the ones I re-watch with more frequency. They were both top of the heap during their respective eras.
I guess I just judge accomplishment more in terms of viewing enjoyment than in terms of number of medals won.
Lipinski has more titles to her name than Arakawa does, but no one calls Arakawa over blown.. What people forget about Lipinski/Kwan was that Michelle's resume back then wasn't much better than Lipinksi's
Michelle had a world titles/Grand Prix title/2 national titles.
Lipinski had a world title/National title/2 Grand Prix titles Sure Michelle had another world medal, but she was also more experienced/at the top longer. In terms of lifetime achievement back then Michelle really wasn't any more deserving than Tara.
As for Irina, I do feel bad for her it was a huge amount of pressure.. Sure the other Russian skaters didn't, but the other Russian skaters didn't have the competition Irina had...
No one says that the OGM isn't valuable or desireable; the only issue, IMO, is the extent to which it outweighs other accomplishments. To the extent that it is given greater weight than multiple world titles, I think that the desire to win it becomes self-defeating because there is so much focus on the gold.
I recall an interview with Plushy after his loss at Worlds in 2000 -- he said he lost because he was thinking about the gold, not about his jumps. I think the same thing happened to both Michelle (especially in SLC) and Irina (especially in Torino). They both went into Olys, first as reigning World silver medalists and then as reigning World champs -- and as the overwhelming favorites to win. They also were well aware that their additional accomplishments would have added still more pressure (if only to avoid having their accomplishments minimized due to the lack of the OGM). Furthermore, in Irina's case in Torino, there was the extra pressure of a potential "Russian sweep" of the golds. I'm not surprised they faltered.
Tara, OTOH, was quoted as saying that the only pressure she felt was a desire to prove wrong all the people who said that she couldn't do it -- and Sarah wasn't under any pressure to win because no one expected her to do it.
The difference between Kwan and Lipinski is that Kwan continued on, and won 5 World titles and 9 US titles to Lipinski's one of each. Kwan became a legend (without the OGM); that is something Lipinski yearned to achieve but never did.
OTOH, there is Sarah Hughes, who was never a Grand Prix, US or World champion, and in fact won just two gold medals in her career: Skate Canada 2001 and the OGM. IMO, Sarah's OGM win was the biggest fluke in competitive figure skating. She went on to tarnish her reputation at 2003 Worlds and then embarrassed herself in her SOI headliner gig.
OTOH, there is Sarah Hughes, who was never a Grand Prix, US or World champion, and in fact won just two gold medals in her career: Skate Canada 2001 and the OGM. IMO, Sarah's OGM win was the biggest fluke in competitive figure skating. She went on to tarnish her reputation at 2003 Worlds and then embarrassed herself in her SOI headliner gig.
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