2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[flanker]

Veronika a tumbler, huh? This just is such a misguided opinion, it couldn't be further from the truth. I'd suggest watching, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01qV2ImxchA

I know that video, that only supports my impression. It's not denigration of her capabilities, just the way how I see her performances currently.

 

[Shayuki]

I know that video, that only supports my impression. It's not denigration of her capabilities, just the way how I see her performances currently.

How can it support your impression if the point you're making is that she can't really skate in tune with the emotions of the music even though in that video she does just that? Well, then.

Here's Veronika Zhilina doing a ballet program 3 years ago at the age of 9:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

This is when I first saw her and had to save the name even though she didn't place very high or have very strong tech content or anything.

Especially having Sofia as a ballet dancer in comparison to Veronika is just, way off.

 

[Autumn Leaves]

Perhaps they don't earn big points under IJS, but I've enjoyed every single one of Liza's programs. Just because a program doesn't have 524 transitions per second doesn't it make it mediocre. It may not win, but maybe that's a problem with the system.

And regarding the layout...I feel like a broken record here, but I'm pretty sure Liza and Mishin work together on the layout and do as much as they can with it. Maybe you wish she could do two triple axles and multiple quads per free skate, but hey that's actually really really hard to do. Why do you think Sasha T, Anna S, Kamila and now Sofia A are so unusual?!

No, I am not wishing for multiple quads or hundreds of transitions for Liza. I just wish that she doesn‘t leave seemingly easy points on the table. She has breathtaking 3A and Lz and that should be enough for her to be a contender if she doesn‘t do two 2A, seq, if she hits level fours, has smarter choreography that hides the problems and accentuates the advantages, works on her stamina, etc. Mishin‘s approach to programs seems frozen in the 80s and the 6.0 era. I am not sayng he is malicious, of course, just no longer edgy. Lozko mentions in that interview that the workload at SPB was much smaller than at Izhevsk or Moscow. I feel bad for Liza because she is truly phenomenal. It is a pity that all her hard work is going to waste due to neglecting details and not maximizing the points. Judges have also been unfair to Liza, I agree with that. But they still need to up their game - not in the jumps, but in all the other areas.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

But her skating skills aren't that great either though.


Okay. But her layouts even in the 2014-15 season were sub-optimal. I never used to understand why they didn't make her do 3Lz+3T in her LP at least. She was still doing +2A sequences. Just the season before that Sotnikova already did do a harder 7 triple layout in the LP.

In terms of SS I think the ones she does do are decent, she just doesn't do a a lot. The stuff she does (other than jumps) are basic. It's something which an average 12 year old could do even in other feds which aren't as advanced as the russians(in terms of the types of movements, not the quality neccessarily as her quality of skating is high).

I think Liza is musical, but she just hasn't developed since previous seasons in terms of repitiour of transitions and fitness to perform them.

In terms of triple triple I think it's something she struggles with, even in the SP (she could do 3T+3T but then wouldn't be able to repeat 3A and 3Lz). I think it's her biggest weakness.

 

[flanker]

It wasn't just a 3T-3T it was a stunningly good 3T-3T, Liza has always been lowballed on GOE for her jumps, Kaetlyn Osmond (also a World Champion) also did an exceptional 3T-3T, but whereas she got praise, Liza was belittled and sneered at for doing the same. It's as if no matter what she does, she has to do more, always more. A 3A isn't enough, it has to be the best 3A, with ridiculous transitions in and out of it, otherwise it's no big deal. A skater does a 3A in practice and posters here fall over themselves to call her the second coming, Liza posts a 4T and people are like "Oh...is that all you have? Put it in a program or shut up." Why are people so hard on her here? Any time I try and say something positive about her all I get is "Oh her skating skills are so poor." "Oh, all she can do is jump." I know this isn't a fan fest, but can't people cut her some slack? Geeze.

Maaaybe because she was working on keeping the 3A? She lost again the next season, so clearly it needs to be trained, I would assume she and Mishin made the decision to concentrate on that. As if she could have won all those titles without a 3A?

Even if she could do a 3Lz+3T I'm sure people would just say "Oh, why can't she do a 3Lz-3Loop? What a loser."

Take it easy. As there are people who are obviously not impressed by Kamila or Sofia (currently), there are naturally people who are not impressed by Liza. That's all.

 

[flanker]

How can it support your impression if the point you're making is that she can't really skate in tune with the emotions of the music even though in that video she does just that? Well, then.

Here's Veronika Zhilina doing a ballet program 3 years ago at the age of 9:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

This is when I first saw her and had to save the name even though she didn't place very high or have very strong tech content or anything.

Especially having Sofia as a ballet dancer in comparison to Veronika is just, way off.

It's subjective, that's all I can say about it.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Take it easy. As there are people who are obviously not impressed by Kamila or Sofia (currently), there are naturally people who are not impressed by Liza. That's all.

You're right, but it seems super lopsided...for every one person who desn't think Kamila and Sofia are all that, there's like 10 or more who think they are. For every one person who enjoys Liza's skating and her programs it feels like there's 50 people who hate what she does and make those who do feel like idiots for enjoying it.

Lozko mentions in that interview that the workload at SPB was much smaller than at Izhevsk or Moscow. I feel bad for Liza because she is truly phenomenal.

Perhaps that's true, but maybe that's why Liza has been around for so long? Let's be honest here, how long has any skater (apart from Moris) from Team Eteri lasted? I'm sorry but the impression I get is that while they get stunning results for a couple of seasons they pretty much run their skaters into the ground. If Liza had gone to Eteri like the others she'd be a distant memory by now, 24 years old? No way would Eteri and co. touch her with a ten foot pole!

 

[flanker]

You're right, but it seems super lopsided...for every one person who desn't think Kamila and Sofia are all that, there's like 10 or more who think they are. For everyone one person who enjoys Liza's skating and her programs it feels like there's 50 people who hate what she does and make those who do feel like idiots for enjoying it.



Perhaps that's true, but maybe that's why Liza has been around for so long? Let's be honest here, how long has any skater (apart from Moris) from Team Eteri lasted? I'm sorry but the impression I get is that while they get stunning results for a couple of seasons they pretty much run their skaters into the ground. If Liza had gone to Eteri like the others she'd be a distant memory by now, 24 years old? No way would Eteri and co. touch her with a ten foot pole!

First: While people sometimes treat skaters like movie stars, the real competition still remains on the ice, not on the number of the instagram followers.

Second: No one I'm aware of was excluded from TT by the coach decision. On one hand people defend the right of the skater to choose his/her own way (another team, other activities outside competitive skating), that's fine, on the other they blame TT for "not keeping them" or that they "didn't last". And sorry but one Liza is not a trend, it's one skater.

 

[Autumn Leaves]

No way would Eteri and co. touch her with a ten foot pole!

Now that‘s one of those assmptions that are presented as facts... You mention Morisi yourself. Eteri just took Evgenia Medvedeva, who is 20+, injured, and with no ultra elements. Under the usual narrative, Eteri shouldn‘t be interested at all, because she cares only about tiny quadsters...

And just to make it clear - not everyone who criticized Liza‘s layouts is a hater. On the contrary, some of these posters are admirers who wish her to succeed. Liza’s goal is not just that you and me enjoy her programs; she needs to win or be on the podium. Yes, judges have also been unfair to Liza and she was robbed of her spot at World 2019 and the last GPF. But everyone else is upping their game, so Liza cannot afford to stay still.

 

[anonymoose_au]

First: While people sometimes treat skaters like movie stars, the real competition still remains on the ice, not on the number if instagram followers.

Yes, and there clearly skaters like Sofia A and Kamila will win over Liza, I don't see the point of constantly moaning about her programs - she's skated this way for a decade now. It's just how she is, if you want a skater who does transitions and 3Lz-3Ts focus on someone else, I don't see why Liza has to change just to satisfy other's "vision" for her. She won't be Liza if she skates like everyone else.

Second: No one I'm aware of was excluded from TT by the coach decision. On one hand people defend the right of the skater to choose his/her own way (another team, other activities outside competitive skating), that's fine, on the other they blame TT for "not keeping them" or thet they "didn't last". And sorry but one Liza is not a trend, it's one skater.

I'm not sure what you mean by excluded by the coach decision? I'm sure Eteri has, out of necessity, turned down plenty of skaters, aren't there waiting lists to get into Sambo-70?

Anyway, with Liza it's the opposite, if one of Eteri's students leave it's Shock! Horror! Their career is doooomed! But every time Liza is discussed here it's a guarantee someone will post that she needs to leave Mishin and find a coach who knows what they're doing. It's kind of offensive, like are they suggesting Liza's too stupid not to know what coach is best for her?

 

[Skatesocs]

It wasn't just a 3T-3T it was a stunningly good 3T-3T

I wouldn't say so at all. This is a stunningly good 3T+3T: https://youtu.be/hKGasODrAcU?t=209

This is what Tuktamysheva landed in her LP at Euros: https://youtu.be/2h6Z1pGvAJ8?t=150

I'd assume she's had problems with the +3T on harder jumps because they lack distance and outflow.

Her practising a 3A that season, and doing it in all of one competition (disregarding WTT) still doesn't take-away from her not training harder combos that season. She even did a 3Lz+3T in 2013 worlds. She was injured before 2014-15 began, but she still did train a 3A of all things.

I think she was a great performer that season, but she's simply never banked on her greatest strengths since then.

(in terms of the types of movements, not the quality neccessarily as her quality of skating is high).

I wouldn't say what she displays is high quality. Not compared to any world champion between 2007-2019 (so even including Ando, Medvedeva, and Zagitova in there). She's of course not bad, but she clearly even needs more speed at times, and I've been confused as to why she doesn't put in more time into basic stroking.

I do think she was a very charismatic performer that season. Her programs this season are a misfire, because she has simply not developed in this direction - they might improve, but they'll probably not get there. So, I do want her to jump all the big jumps, that's her strength.

 

[Novalis]

Since some of us are exhibiting a Sadkova fever (me included), I will quickly return to that subject. So, this is the best Sadkova info video on Youtube and you can even put English subtitles (not the best) on. At around 3 minute mark it is revealed that her date of birth is June 26th 2008 (lucky!)

Wie komme ich zur Elite-Schule der Welt? TeamTutberidze.

In den letzten Jahren hat Khrustalny kategorisch den Titel der Hauptschule des Landes inne. Dort wollen Hunderte von Kindern und ihre Eltern aus ganz Russlan...

www.youtube.com

Edit: Why is there German language in the link?

 

[anonymoose_au]

I wouldn't say so at all. This is a stunningly good 3T+3T: https://youtu.be/hKGasODrAcU?t=209

This is what Tuktamysheva landed in her LP at Euros: https://youtu.be/2h6Z1pGvAJ8?t=150

I'd assume she's had problems with the +3T on harder jumps because they lack distance and outflow.

OK, it might be the quality of the first video, but I'm not seeing an enormous difference between Midori and Liza here.

Also you're contradicting yourself, Liza can't do a 3T well on the end of combo, so...she should do an even harder jump combo? That's a downside of the IJS, I don't see how a badly done jump or a fall should get you more points. That just makes no sense! It encourages skaters to do "planned" falls, which sounds about as much fun as banging your head against a wall and a great way to really injure yourself. Some skaters may want to risk it, but I'm not going to diss any skater who doesn't.

Her programs this season are a misfire, because she has simply not developed in this direction - they might improve, but they'll probably not get there.

Now see, here's the issue, I absolutely adore her programs this season. They're wonderful!

I'm not trying to be the fan police here, but I can't see how a person can be a fan of a skater if they fundamentally hate their programs and style. To me that would be like saying "Wow I love Plushy, but damn I hate his arm movements." That's a key component of his skating! I mean maybe they really love Liza's personality? In which case maybe ignore their programs and focus on that?

 

[flanker]

Yes, and there clearly skaters like Sofia A and Kamila will win over Liza, I don't see the point of constantly moaning about her programs - she's skated this way for a decade now. It's just how she is, if you want a skater who does transitions and 3Lz-3Ts focus on someone else, I don't see why Liza has to change just to satisfy other's "vision" for her. She won't be Liza if she skates like everyone else.

I'm not sure what you mean by excluded by the coach decision? I'm sure Eteri has, out of necessity, turned down plenty of skaters, aren't there waiting lists to get into Sambo-70?

Anyway, with Liza it's the opposite, if one of Eteri's students leave it's Shock! Horror! Their career is doooomed! But every time Liza is discussed here it's a guarantee someone will post that she needs to leave Mishin and find a coach who knows what they're doing. It's kind of offensive, like are they suggesting Liza's too stupid not to know what coach is best for her?

C'mon, how many people are moaning here about practically every program TT skaters have. Is it so much different when it comes to somebody else? Are people allowed to criticize only Eteri skaters? No. Liza's programs have many flaws and I don't think it's something that only Eteri supportes claim. Often the problem is bad layout that costs her many points, e.g. it's good to have 3A in the program but if the rest is not thought out properly, the power of the 3A often only compensates the losses of points she suffers elsewhere, like because of using sequence intead of combo, or when the only 3+3 combo is 3T+3T which BV is somewhere near to the well jumped solo 3Lz, or when the first half of the program is literally skating from one jump to another and some other content comes finally with choreo and step sequence etc. As people say "that's not hating this or that Eteri skater", this is not hating on Liza.

Accepting or not accepting a skater is not the same as "turning someone down". Surely Eteri can't accept every candidate (it's funny if that should be something to blame her of if on the other hand she is blamed for taking "yet another talent") as any other team, the capacity is naturally limited. It must be always a compromise between the capacity and the number of candidates. Of course there are plenty of them, considering the restults of the team that even the biggest haters can't deny.

But the question here is keeping the skater for a long time, not accepting at the beginning. If we go back, probably the possibly oldest lady skater that could potentially still be with Eteri is Polina Shelepen. As with many other examples, it was her own decision to leave Eteri, not Eteri's action, so claiming something about "touch her with a ten foot pole" is not in the right place. Eteri didn't expell Zhenya out of her team and I don't think it is necessary to reconstruct what has occured. Eteri accepted Polina Tsurskaya as a coach in her team. I'm sure that in the moment Alina expresses her wish to return back to competitions she will receive as many care and attention as possible. Maybe there can be something on Eteri's side that prevents her team keeping many skaters when they turn particular age, but the problem is not that the team doesn't want to keep them, that belongs among the biggest delusions of the figure skating world.

 

[katymay]

It's subjective, that's all I can say about it.

Bear in mind that Veronika is super tiny-she has to work twice as hard to get the same speed across the ice as someone more normal sized. Right now, like Trusova-she is more into the jumps, but she has time to work on the rest of it.

 

[nussnacker]

Bear in mind that Veronika is super tiny-she has to work twice as hard to get the same speed across the ice as someone more normal sized. Right now, like Trusova-she is more into the jumps, but she has time to work on the rest of it.

She also reminds me of little Sasha! I think it's also due to style and her movements in general, but I see a lot of Sasha in her, except Nika also has some very good spins on top.

Whereas Akatieva reminds me of Aliona a lot, her arms, exceptional skating skills, smoothness and elegance are very reminiscent of little Aliona.

 

[Autumn Leaves]

Well, I love her jumps, her personality, her perseverance and I wish she had better programs. Last year‘s SP by Shae Lynn was fantastic, before Mishin changed the music and some of the choreo. It was extremely well done and very suitable for Liza. By the way, I don‘t like every program of my other favorite skaters as well, what‘s wrong with that?!

 

[anonymoose_au]

it's good to have 3A in the program but if the rest is not thought out properly

When you write this though you're basically saying Mishin is, in fact, an idiot who doesn't know how to count or worse yet, that Liza is also an idiot because after many many seasons she also doesn't realise this. I feel that there must be a good reason for the layouts chosen and that Mishin isn't senile and everyone's just too polite to tell him there's a new scoring system going on.

As with many other examples, it was her own decision to leave Eteri, not Eteri's action

I'm not sure about that...I recall hearing that when a skater was struggling with triples, Eteri and her team's response was to put them in a "lower" group. Perhaps I'm oversensitive, I'm sure I am, but I thought that was messed up. Firstly, it shows a complete lack of confidence in the skater - like, rather than trying to help you when you're having a rough time, I'm just going to shove you out of sight so you don't waste my time. Secondly, it sends a message to those in the "lower" group that being in said group is a punishment, it's where the no-hopers go, like thanks a lot!

If I were a skater who was struggling, that sort of decision from my coach would leave me utterly disillusioned, not to mention embarrassed and yes I probably would leave. But would it be wholly my decision? Or was I pushed?

 

[Scott512]

Now that's a theory I can get behind
Of course, men and pairs naturally have a longer maturation period and shelf-life. Top ladies are like cottage cheese but St Petersburg is better at making cheddar. Both are tasty and good...

Mishin strikes me as being old enough not to bother with politicking (and not exactly influential either). He usually shies away from controversial media, unlike one of his ex-students... His trademark non-strategic choreo/jump layouts just make me think he gives short shrift to gaming the scoring system, let alone trying to bend their rules. Plus he has stated in the past that he prefers coaching men.

Rukavicin might be more likely, since he has quite a few young teen/early adult ladies who are lovely skaters but have been ousted from the top by their prepubertal compatriots - Nugumanova, Gubanova, Talalaikina, Leonova (if she hasn't retired yet). No other major SPB ladies' coaches come to mind.

Very interesting well thought and well explained takes FF. Especially about the professor, Saint Petersburg, Rukavicin (makes total sense) and cheese! I prefer cheddar to cottage cheese as far as cheese goes. I'm well the super young Moscow girls are unbelievable for ladies figure skating I miss seeing some of the St. Petersburg girls skate this season. Sure they can't compete technically with the Moscow girls but some of them are more enjoyable and beautiful to watch skate. I think some of you know who I'm talking about who has been invisible this season.

 

[flanker]

Bear in mind that Veronika is super tiny-she has to work twice as hard to get the same speed across the ice as someone more normal sized. Right now, like Trusova-she is more into the jumps, but she has time to work on the rest of it.

I agree she is. But Anna is super tiny, Sofia is probably more tiny than Alina or Zhenya were in her age etc. It's not a critique of her and I should add that the other things can come later. See it with Daria Usacheva, her performing qualities came later than Kamila's, but now she's not far behind, if we can even talk about who is behind who, because they of course are all individuals and they are all different as Brian would say.