2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[eterialskating]

At least get your facts right before trying to drag Kostornaia as per usual. It was a 7 triple program.

Alina's your favourite right? Maybe you're clueless to this but Alina's Olympic program is only 1.2 points higher than Aliona's current layout. -2Lo for Alina, and an -eu- for Aliona the difference. So weak.

Well Alina's Olympic program certainly did not have subpar spins and a level 2 step sequence. And no it was not really 7 triples as she had several UR's. So in no way they are even comparable.

 

[Paulipau]

That's a fair TES score for Sasha. She has received her deductions so there is no conceiving argument for her tech score to be reduced more. That's what it is, she rotated and fell on her quads and should be given her due. The problem lies in her PCS which should have been at most in low 60's. This is the same joke PCS that Kostner received in her typical 4-fall performances.

I completely agree, also jumping quads should be encouraged, not discouraged by minus points. The sport has to develop and go forward.

 

[sclloyd]

True, 7 triple, my bad. I admit I was tricked by the 2T, as it's not an usual planned layout by Team Tutberidze, since it's so inefficient. Indeed, she isn't on Team Tutberidze anymore, so that was quite stupid of me... It's actually the Ashley Wagner layout, I'd call it, as she used to do that one all the time.

I guess we could also say that for the non-jumping elements Trusova got 0.28 points more, but that's not very significant. Trusova did somewhat land one quad, for what that's worth. Well, the numbers add up. It actually got hit pretty hard in the latest update. I recall Yuzuru Hanyu in CoC 2014 got quite a solid score even with 5 falls as well, actually getting the second-highest TES of the competition(not counting fall deductions), and placing second in free-skate as well. Since then, they've made falling hurt a lot more.

Well, there are some contributing factors. For example Trusova's first 4S fall was -5 but several judges called it -4 or even -3, which gave Trusova 0.39 more points than she should have, which is more than the advantage she gained in all of her non-jump elements combined.

What's more difficult, a landed triple or a fall on a fully rotated quad? A ton more skaters can land a triple jump, that's for sure, but the fallen quad gets a significantly lower score. Should it be even lower? I know some have called for falls receiving 0 points but that's quite harsh to me.

What? The +2T layout was also Aliona's original Twilight layout at test skates under Eteri.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Perhaps the problem is with the PCS? Maybe there should be mandatory deductions for falls in there?

Overall, I do think the PCS system is not great. SS and Transitions are technical skills really, so there isn't much room for artistic points.

But if we made mandatory deductions on PCS for falls would we not also open the door to see mandatory increases in PCS for landed jumps. Maybe we could at least get the ISU to acknowledge that the phenomenon exists


All kidding aside I do think judges can and do make adjustments for a jumps impact on an overall performance both good or bad and I’m alright with it.

 

[chasingneverland]

I meant in the context of "a bad competition means you're done". We could also talk about Kamila's Bolero. But I try to stay away from discussions like this. There are so many behind the scenes factors that go into competitions and we see maybe 5% of that. There's no need for us to make judgement calls about coaches over a single bad outing. Even I was wrong about Mishin not being able to get girls on the podium because of the wonky formats. And here we are.

That's what I meant though. People did think and arguably even the committee was concerned that Zagi's bad world's competition meant she was done. When obviously she wasn't - she won Worlds after haha. No one is 100% out until they hang up their skates haha.

 

[chasingneverland]

Lot of bold assumptions that Anna would’ve automatically won if she’d competed here healthy...never mind that ice is slippery and that she’s also had some jump troubles as of late. Remember, based on how well Sasha had been doing (three clean quads at her last Russian cup!) she was expected to have an easy win here without Anna and look how that turned out.

That being said acting like Sasha is done after one poor performance is ridiculous. This has been a difficult year for every skater and even with that she’s looked strong at each of her previous performances under Plushenko. If there starts being a pattern then there’s a reason to be concerned but until then she’s allowed to have one bad day at a competition that doesn’t really matter this year.

I think most of the comments are coming from the fact that Anna is a mentally stronger performer. And even if she were to fall - which she has done - she tends to save the rest of her performance and still score v highly, even with mistakes.

I love Sasha but this isn't her first "poor performance". She was having bad skates last year too, although most of her problems seem mental - not that she can't do it. She just seems like a bit of a nervous competitor and focuses on her quads and recently her 3A and when she falls she can't always get back into the program and save the rest of it. I know this is a bad year, the concern is that she has had bad days at competitions before. Even in her 3 clean quad skate at the last russian cup she still did fall twice.

 

[McBibus]

True, 7 triple, my bad. I admit I was tricked by the 2T, as it's not an usual planned layout by Team Tutberidze, since it's so inefficient. Indeed, she isn't on Team Tutberidze anymore, so that was quite stupid of me... It's actually the Ashley Wagner layout, I'd call it, as she used to do that one all the time.

You should consider the 3A in that layout.
Until is not there there will be "placeholder" that surely aren't optimized but should not change the overall routine so much that it should be reworked if the 3A comes back.

What's more difficult, a landed triple or a fall on a fully rotated quad? A ton more skaters can land a triple jump, that's for sure, but the fallen quad gets a significantly lower score. Should it be even lower? I know some have called for falls receiving 0 points but that's quite harsh to me.

Is that the real question? What's more difficult failed elements included?
I think excellence of execution should be rewarded more (and for excellence I don't mean +1 or +2 but +4 or +5, 3 being the middle)
Personally I think the GOE scale is good: a -5 quad is about the same as a 0 triple that is a barely good jump. A real good jump (+2 or more) is more points but I would like to have a more exponential distribution of GOE bonus so that a -/+1 is closer to the BV that is now (10%) and a +/- 5 is more than the actual 50%

 

[Skatesocs]

I saw this tweet: https://twitter.com/BoneKostornaia/status/1330221045584900098

Does anyone know what "team trusova" is, and how they know? I might have missed an official source here.

They really should have done just one quad if this is the case =/

 

[kolyadafan2002]

You should consider the 3A in that layout.
Until is not there there will be "placeholder" that surely aren't optimized but should not change the overall routine so much that it should be reworked if the 3A comes back.

Is that the real question? What's more difficult failed elements included?
I think excellence of execution should be rewarded more (and for excellence I don't mean +1 or +2 but +4 or +5, 3 being the middle)
Personally I think the GOE scale is good: a -5 quad is about the same as a 0 triple that is a barely good jump. A real good jump (+2 or more) is more points but I would like to have a more exponential distribution of GOE bonus so that a -/+1 is closer to the BV that is now (10%) and a +/- 5 is more than the actual 50%

So how much do you want +5 to be worth?

 

[Mawwerg]

You know to this very day I still remember Jeffrey Buttle and his coach pretty much flat out admitting they put the quad in his program knowing full well 100% he would never land it but did so anyway because of the big points he would get for simply rotating it.

I can't remember how the ISU changed the system to stop that type of thing (they did right?) but the more and more I hear about ladies (who frankly in my opinion got no business trying at this moment) going for a 3A now I fear the ladies might be soon heading in that direction. Aleksandra's score compared to her actual performance and compared to what her competitors did feels like it would encourage it

I don't think so. To receive a decent score from a fallen quad you need to fully rotate it while for a downgraded one you receive far less plus a cumulative deduction. I don't see how anybody can gain some profit from this strategy. Sasha scored 128 here while with clean all-triple program she probably can score up to 150.

 

[McBibus]

So how much do you want +5 to be worth?

that's to much to ask.
A proper proposal would need a review of all the last year main event with a simulation of different scores.
To give an approxymate idea now is 10, 20, 30, 40, 50
Let's keep 30 as constant
It could be 6, 17, 30, 46, 65 but just to give an idea of a non linear progression

 

[Resa]

I'm not 100% sure on the exact wording, but I think the rules define a fall as a moment where the body weight isn't mainly on the skates - I don't think knees or butts are mentioned anywhere.

Either way, her 4S was definitely counted as a fall here, you can see the fall notation on her protocol.

Thank you for the clarification! Makes sense to me

 

[yume]

I don't think so. To receive a decent score from a fallen quad you need to fully rotate it while for a downgraded one you receive far less plus a cumulative deduction. I don't see how anybody can gain some profit from this strategy. Sasha scored 128 here while with clean all-triple program she probably can score up to 150.

She would need 70+ pcs and Kostornaya's GOEs to get 150+ with an all triples program.

I wonder if Kosto can get 160+ with her current layout. 75+ PCS is possible but probably not 85 TES. 82 maybe.

Medvedeva got 160 in the previous system and that wasn't even one of the hardest 7 triples program that could have been done. I wonder what her score would be with the SoV.

 

[nussnacker]

I saw this tweet: https://twitter.com/BoneKostornaia/status/1330221045584900098

Does anyone know what "team trusova" is, and how they know? I might have missed an official source here.

They really should have done just one quad if this is the case =/

It’s probably a fan account on IG? I’m not convinced they are in a position to confirm anything...

 

[Skatesocs]

It’s probably a fan account on IG? I’m not convinced they are in a position to confirm anything...

If it's just a fan account, then I agree.

 

[Gabby30]

It's hilarious how salty Trusova fans are. Let's remember how you all used to put down other skaters (especially male skaters) the last few years, to put her higher, to make her look better. It's the reason why there are people who will never support her. Arroganc is never supported. Now you can't handle critique and the fact the she just isn't that unbeatable and great as she used to be in your fantasies. What goes around comes around

And now, ofc, Kostornaia is being bashed, because she again dared to beat her in an international competition

 

[Skatesocs]

It's hilarious

That's a funny way to refer to yourself.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Perhaps the problem is with the PCS? Maybe there should be mandatory deductions for falls in there?

Overall, I do think the PCS system is not great. SS and Transitions are technical skills really, so there isn't much room for artistic points.

And there is (not mandatory, but still...) Her components score is 3 points lower comparing to the one she got without that many falls. So, if you take into account that she lost 1.5 points in deductions and at least 0.5 points in components for every fall, and add that to her points for failed quads, she basically got the same amount of points per quad as she would for a double lutz. Her TES maybe look high comparing to the other skaters here, but those others didn't have all their triples clean either. Gulaikova, who had four underrotations calls, beat Trusova.

 

[Lunalovesskating]

I saw this tweet: https://twitter.com/BoneKostornaia/status/1330221045584900098

Does anyone know what "team trusova" is, and how they know? I might have missed an official source here.

They really should have done just one quad if this is the case =/

The Trusova fan account that spread the rumour about her injury is a small fan account with 1k followers it was not her official fan account that spread this, they did not mention anything about injury so far. Unfortunately everyone on Twitter and instagram just believes anything without checking, if her official fan account indeed did write that and so the rumour that she is injured spread like wildwife.

 

[[email protected]]

I agree with you.
Sasha may look a machine on the rink, but I always have the impression of a sweet shy girl out of it.
Probably not the best course of action.
Strong emotions seems to make her smaller while Aliona for example literally lives of strong emotions.
For sure he's much more of a diva than his skaters

But tht wasn't the point of my post.
The point was that even if he's out of the line, that is no justification for the fans to be offensive toward the skaters, especially when they did not just imitate him: the did worse.
Each one is responsible of his own actions

The shouting of one random fan "Liza was better" during Alyona's K&C says a lot about this person. The multiple "disgusting" comments here say a lot about people who post them.