Flutzing men

[Joesitz (RIP)]

in the end the jumps are still cheated, it doesn't matter to me if you took a dollar or a hundred dollars, for you still took money. same in this scenario you still did not performed a jump correctly.

Would you say a deliberate wrong edge take-off is a cheat or a simple error in attempt?

Joe

 

[zephyrskates]

Would you say a deliberate wrong edge take-off is a cheat or a simple error in attempt?

Joe

DELIBERATELY, then it is a cheat. although even if it was only an error(say it happened rarely) the jump was still not performed correctly, and although it may be harsh for that time, in that competition a one-time flutzer is as guilty as a deliberate flutzer, as is a flutzer and a lipper.

 

[zephyrskates]

If it doesn't matter to you then you should change your mindset, IMO. The CoP is exacting and rightly so. That's why there is a specific deduction for, say, putting your hand down on a jump and a greater deduction for outright falling on a jump. Both jumps were not performed correctly but one infraction is clearly greater than another.

but i was simply putting forth my reply on whether lipping is harder than flutzing, to ME in both cases the jumps were not done properly, and what you are presenting now is a different premise. a premise that may lead to a different conclusion. although i appreciate that feature of the CoP, and i apologize if i have led people to believe that i am imposing my beliefs.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Nothing to apologize about.

I think most everyone would agree that both jumps are incorrect...but we were talking about the relative degree of error in flutzing vs. lipping based on personal skating experience and knowledge. Do you have any opinions about that?

 

[silver.blades]

I can't figure out how anyone can lip. I find an inside edge much easier to hold than an outside one and I can't figure out how the switch to the outside edge on the flip would happen. and I mentioned lipping to my coach, she had no idea what I was talking about.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I can't figure out how anyone can lip. I find an inside edge much easier to hold than an outside one and I can't figure out how the switch to the outside edge on the flip would happen. and I mentioned lipping to my coach, she had no idea what I was talking about.

When I skated, I had a difficult time with the back inside edge take off for a flip. While I did not rock over to the outside edge, I did rock to the flat and took off in a psuedo Flip. No body is aware of the many jumps both toe-offs and edges that take off on a flat edge.

Joe

 

[julietvalcouer]

Going backwards, I have an easier time staying on an outside edge than an inside. It's been a battle in ballroom to learn to keep on the inside edges of my feet. To the best of my recolletion I have never had the problem I see some new skaters have, with the ankles collapsing in, so it just may be that my ankles roll out more naturally. For me, were I to start jumping, inside-edge takeoffs would likely not be my friend.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Not sure about flutzers...Takahashi and Oda always seemed a little suspect to me. Rudy Galindo, too.

What about LIPpers? Weir and Plushenko, definitely.

Galindo had an enormous flutz. It was blatant.

 

[Hsuhs]

What about LIPpers? Weir and Plushenko, definitely.

They've already made a vid of Johnny's freshest lip:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RMDEKSK6d0k

The jump is still very high & powerful & impressive, IMO.

 

[hockeyfan228]

As a universal standard, though, I believe Flutzing is worse than Lipping. Flutzing generally makes a Lutz easier by a greater magnitude than lipping makes a Flip easier.

CoP does the opposite, since if the error is a -2, for example, 2 is a greater percentage of the base value of a flip than it is as a percentage of the base value lutz, but at the flattened scale of .5 between most of the jumps in progression. Had the difference between the base value of a lutz and a flip had been more accurate, then the same -GOE is even less a percentage of the base value.

However, if a flip is that much easier, then the skater has an opportunity to make up some of the -GOE for the lip by performing the other aspects of the jump better; although - GOE is required for an "e" jump, if the judges were using the full -3 to 3 scale instead of sticking with the pack in the safe middle, I would expect -1 for a lip, but -2 or -3 for a lutz.

 

[hockeyfan228]

in the end the jumps are still cheated, it doesn't matter to me if you took a dollar or a hundred dollars, for you still took money. same in this scenario you still did not performed a jump correctly.

From another point of view, you got less money for your flawed merchandise, but that merchandise was still useful to someone.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I can understand the attitude of CoP considering a wrong edge take off as a flawed jump (an attempt at a flip jump but rocked over to the back outside edge) and they give this a -1 in GoEs. I don't think it's enough penalty but who am I? I think it is a now a different jump.

The definitiion of the jump has definitely not been followed. Attempting one is just considered flawed, and not considered a dfifferent jump.

Now a flawed jump in a jump landing is a totally different concept from the CoP. I don't know why but it is. The skater attempted a triple jump but landed before the compete required rotations. The severe penalty downgrades the jump and it becomes more of a penalty at the 'new' definition of the degraded jump as an overrotation. Attempting the original jump does not come into play. It's considered beyond flawed.

The above seems to be the regulations of the incorrect take-offs and landings of jumps. Some fans accept the word of the CoP without a problem; others don't.

Joe