2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[yume]

Many nitpicking critics in this thread were very enthusiastic in their assessment of NHK. As for me the Japanese skaters are seriously lagging behind. One landed URed 3A by Wakaba and a couple of unsuccessful attempts. Outside Rika last season there is no track record of landed ultra-si jumps including domestic competitions.

NHK's FS BV of Kaori is 62 vs. Kamilla's 70 today. This is a very big difference. And she will likely introduce 3A in the free program instead of 2A pushing BV further 4.7 points up. The BV difference with Kaori will be more than 12 points after that. And Kamilla is much better spinner to command superior GOE at least for spins.

So what do we have then? Oh, yes, those "magical skating skills" where Japanese ladies are supposedly much better than the Russians. When there are no quads, what is left but referring to skating skills?

What has been said in NHK threads that is getting you so worked up since days?

Preferences are normal. Not an insult. Russian ladies are amazing. Other skaters can be amazing too.

 

[Scott512]

Kamila 254,86 pts

Should we be disappointed. kamila didn't reach 260? I suppose not. If Kamila got to 270 she could be president of the United States. Inside joke there.

I think if this was an international competition and she skated that well KV would probably be scored about five to seven points lower overall. Might not have reached 250 but mid to upper 240s is still a huge score. Especially for a girl who still supposed to be in juniors.

Kamila was unbeaten in juniors last season and she's clearly better this season. I think she's the only top-level lady skater in the world that's actually better by a lot this season vs last season.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

To me Storm is actually more artistic than Adios nonino. I don't see Alyona as particularly "artistic", but she is a very good skater, that's why her performances look so nice. Kamila is a much better spinner, which is also a nice bonus.

My biggest issue with Storm is actually the music? Not to say the music isn't great, because it is, but because It's a little too simple for Kamila. I want her to skate to something a little bit different than her previous skates. In Storm, there is a clear baseline of notes, and a simple melody, and that just makes for a bit of a simple program, or at least an illusion of a simple program. Adios Nonino is one of my favorite pieces and not only is it mature, and complex, I think the backloading concept worked super well with the music too. It's the same style, so maybe I'm being hypocritical, but I want to see Kamila skate to des pas sur la neige because I think all the empty space could allow her to actually hold some of her beautiful positions.

 

[flanker]

Ah well, I don't really follow Nathan so I don't know about that case. Second, I'm not saying her getting 0 GOE on the 3A is a crime punishable by death, I'm simply stating, I don't agree with that and if it were up to me, I would have scored it differently. It is one factor that would impact her score right? And if it were up to me that element would have scored differently and thus her entire program score would have been lower. And did I compare scores across competitions because I don't recall that? You obviously shouldn't, sorry if I did. And besides it's simply because I felt like Kamila's score was too high and thus I wanted to see what I would have done differently. Now if this were, say, Liza Nugumanova, and she for some reason got a positive GOE on a step-out but her score was still like 64, I wouldn't look into that because the score itself made sense to me (I mean it obviously doesn't because the PCS should pull her scores up much higher but that won't happen and it's a completely different argument).

It's walking in circles as long as you are so loud about just particular skaters and silent (or supposedly ignorant) about other ones (the ones that belong into the Russian Ladies thread, just to ensure). It's as simple as that. Therefore it's simply not convincing.

You compare different skaters here the way that is related to scoring even if you don't talk about the numbers directly. Just the last reaction on the comment about components, I would have to be blind to not read it as "how does it come that AB's score is so close to XY".

BTW, the thing about so frequently used word "selling": skater is not traveling salesman. Of course, someone wants the thing they show him perfectly illuminated and photographed in the catalogue. That's selling. I want more, I want the movement, I want the real beauty, I want the purity (I don't mean the technical one here), I want the emotions.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Many nitpicking critics in this thread were very enthusiastic in their assessment of NHK. As for me the Japanese skaters are seriously lagging behind. One landed URed 3A by Wakaba and a couple of unsuccessful attempts. Outside Rika last season there is no track record of landed ultra-si jumps including domestic competitions.

NHK's FS BV of Kaori is 62 vs. Kamilla's 70 today. This is a very big difference. And she will likely introduce 3A in the free program instead of 2A pushing BV further 4.7 points up. The BV difference with Kaori will be more than 12 points after that. And Kamilla is much better spinner to command superior GOE at least for spins.

So what do we have then? Oh, yes, those "magical skating skills" where Japanese ladies are supposedly much better than the Russians. When there are no quads, what is left but referring to skating skills?

But here's the thing. Skating skills are the basis of good skating. And in Russian skating, there's just a lack for that flow in step sequences, the speed going into combos, the knee bend landing position, and so when you suddenly get 12 skaters in a competition who do have all of those things and lovely programs too, of course I'm going to be pleased. And I'm nitpicking scores and GOEs, and beyond Kaori, everyone else was way underscored. (Also I believe Mana Kawabe landed a 3A in domestic competition last season).

 

[Scott512]

What has been said in NHK threads that got you so worked up since days?

Preferences are normal. Not an insult. Russian ladies are amazing. Other skaters can be amazing too.

Several of his loved ones have Coronavirus. Maybe that's made Sam a little edgier for the time being.

Preferences are normal.

 

[silveruskate]

It is true, she is not doing so well now. But it is a difficult season, I think that she just simply didnt have enough time and didn't get her programs choreographed soon enough. I dont see why it would disregard everything she did for the past 2 seasons.

I remember that after test skates everybody was writing about Tukatyshevas under rotations and losing levels on spins and steps. And one week ago the girl was on fire with perfect technique and all levels in place.

Skaters are people.

Not to mention Aliona's spins and step sequence in the FS are the hardest she's ever attempted. But let's just pretend that isn't the case and say she's found her "true-level" or whatever was said before.

Somehow Aliona and Kamila are mentioned together often. Maybe they're destined for each other!

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

It's walking in circles as long as you are so loud about just particular skaters and silent (or supposedly ignorant) about other ones (the ones that belong into the Russian Ladies thread, just to ensure). It's as simple as that. Therefore it's simply not convincing.

You compare different skaters here the way that is related to scoring even if you don't talk about the numbers directly. Just the last reaction on the comment about components, I would have to be blind to not read it as "how does it come that AB's score is so close to XY".

BTW, the thing about so frequently used word "selling": skater is not traveling salesman. Of course, someone wants the thing they show him perfectly illuminated and photographed in the catalogue. That's selling. I want more, I want the movement, I want the real beauty, I want the purity (I don't mean the technical one here), I want the emotions.

Then who in the Russian Ladies thread is getting positive GOE for step-outs because I really don't recall. Sorry! My memory just isn't that great.

The PCS comment was actually in relation to how Ksenia Tsibinova got 7.65 in skating skills when I feel like she's actually quite great in that category, and then seeing Kamila get 9.15. There isn't that big a difference there.

I mean, everyone uses "selling" so it seems weird to try to coin a new term now. I mean selling a program and selling a dress are different concepts. A program can be choreographed extremely well but if the skater doesn't show the passion, or the emotion, or the beauty I still won't be sold on it. The "selling" comes from the skater, not the product (or program), they have to show you why you should love their program and their skating through their movements and emotions. Nonetheless, I just don't see that many emotions in Kamila's skating yet.

 

[Fluture]

Ah well, I don't really follow Nathan so I don't know about that case. Second, I'm not saying her getting 0 GOE on the 3A is a crime punishable by death, I'm simply stating, I don't agree with that and if it were up to me, I would have scored it differently. It is one factor that would impact her score right? And if it were up to me that element would have scored differently and thus her entire program score would have been lower. And did I compare scores across competitions because I don't recall that? You obviously shouldn't, sorry if I did. And besides it's simply because I felt like Kamila's score was too high and thus I wanted to see what I would have done differently. Now if this were, say, Liza Nugumanova, and she for some reason got a positive GOE on a step-out but her score was still like 64, I wouldn't look into that because the score itself made sense to me (I mean it obviously doesn't because the PCS should pull her scores up much higher but that won't happen and it's a completely different argument).

The judging at Skate America was at least as ridiculous as the one on those cups. Generally, the Russians aren‘t the only ones who use scoring to push their favorites. The US does it all the time and while I used to think the scoring in Japanese competitions was fairer, turns out it actually isn‘t. Stricter scoring doesn‘t necessarily equate to fairer scoring. This is probably heavily off-topic but if you deflate everyone else‘s scores while inflating the ones of your favorites, it‘s still not fair. It just gives the impression because: “oooh, so strict, look at how they do it compared to the Russians who unfairly overscore.“ Yeah, no. So, bringing Nathan as an example isn‘t really even an argument. Just because he, too, is from a fed that uses this judging practice, doesn‘t make it fair. This is a general problem and Kamila‘s scores are not the epitome, nor anything unusual based on almost all competitions we‘ve seen in the past few season - and especially this one. Which is a bit depressing but, again, this thread‘s not really the place to whine about current scoring practices.

I‘m not claiming to be especially knowledgeable about the rules as I‘m not a skater myself but: here‘s what I copied from the rulebook on GOE:

1. very good height and distance
2. good take-off and landing
3. effortless throughout (including rhythm in a combination or sequence)
4. steps into a jump, unexpected or creative entry
5. very good body position from take-off to landing
6. element matches the music

Landing on two feet, stepping out: -3 to -4

So, analysing Kamila‘s 3A:

Imo, she wouldn‘t even get the first bullet with a perfectly landed 3A because it is a very low jump. It basically has the same height and distance as her 2A, she just rotates infinitely faster to make it work. She probably would deserve the second bullet for the 3A we saw her do in the warm-up - but in the competition she had a step-out, so no way there was a “good landing“. Effortless throughout - again, for the one in the warm-up, yes. To me, Kamila‘s 3A isn‘t very visually impressive because it‘s so small but considering she makes it look like a 2A, it‘s more than effortless. When she jumps it well, it looks like there‘s no strain involved at all. But the one in the competition had a step-out, which is a visible error, ergo not effortless. I think we can safely exclude bullet point 5 for the same reason.

Now, 4 and 6 are interesting. I do think the way they placed the 3A matches the music - I actually thought even the step-out was on a musical accent, which was funny. I‘d definitely give her that one. She does have a short transition into the 3A but it‘s not seamless into it, she pauses afterwards and prepares the jump. It‘s by no means an excessively long set-up but it‘s also not even close to the intricate steps Aliona used to do into her 3A last season. So, for that reason, I wouldn’t award Kamila‘s 3A the bullet point 4. But I can see how others think differently here.

So, if we account for the fact that her step-out, while visually distractive, wasn‘t as bad as a hand-down or a fall and she recovered quickly, I‘d say we should reduce the GOE by 3, not 4.

I‘d come to a final GOE of -2 (+1 normally and -3 for the step-out) If you give her the creative entry bullet, you‘d go to -1.

It’s higher than I expected for an error but that‘s what I found. Correct my mistakes, please. One question I had during this exercise, for example, was how you judge jumps overall. Do you take the jump at hand (i.e taking the step-out into account for every single GOE bullet or do you imagine a perfect landing, go from there and only afterwards deduct the mandatory -3/-4?) It may sound like a stupid question but I‘m honestly confused right now.

Also, interestingly enough, since the first three bullets are mandatory for a +4 or +5, Kamila‘s jumps (safe for that enormous 4T) would never get +4 or +5 in my eyes. Most have average to small height, especially her edge jumps. She makes up for it with good flow and rotational speed but if we take the rule books seriously, imo, she‘d be capped at +3.

There‘s also the thing about PCS. If anyone could explain seriously to me why Tarakanova should get 7s for her FS while Valieva deserves mid to high 9s, I would be grateful. There was a 14 points overall difference between the two, despite Valieva falling and Tarakanova skating cleanly. Just food for thought.

Kamila’s still insanely good for her age, obviously. Right now she’s the favorite for basically every competition she enters. As long as she skates cleanly, Gold is hers and it’s not hard to see why. Everyone knows my opinion about the rest, so I‘ll just leave it at that.

Congratulations to her on the Gold - and Nastya Tarakanova on a medal!! I wanted Silver (felt she was underscored in the FS..) but oh well. Not complaining. Medal‘s a medal. And a ticket to Nationals!! Now, please stafe and healthy.

So what do we have then? Oh, yes, those "magical skating skills" where Japanese ladies are supposedly much better than the Russians. When there are no quads, what is left but referring to skating skills?

Oh come on, you‘ve got to be kidding me. It‘s not hating to say the Japanese skaters have, on average, way better skating skills than the Russians. In fact, it‘s plain as day. And skating skills are the foundation this sport is built on. It‘s figure skating after all. So, yes, they don‘t matter all that much in the current system but the difference still exists. Watch how Japanese ladies gain speed, take a look at their edges, their flow. It‘s all there.

Skating is not just quads. It‘s true quads win you the most points that‘s why everyone‘s trying them. And currently, the Russian ladies are the best at them. So, of course, they‘re winning. This is a sport and currently, they‘re the better jumpers, the ones pushing the system. But they‘re not better at everything and I don‘t see how saying that diminishes the Russian ladies‘ talent.

And honestly, you keep talking about whatever was said in the Japanese ladies thread. I don‘t follow it religiously because safe for Wakaba (and Rika and Satoko but they weren‘t there), there‘s no Japanese lady I‘m currently interested in. But from what I‘ve seen, there was sharp criticism of the judging, a real analysis of Kaori‘s and Wakaba‘s jumps. There wasn‘t just praise and I haven‘t exactly seen any digs at the Russians. So, really, I have no idea what you‘re complaining about.

 

[flanker]

Then who in the Russian Ladies thread is getting positive GOE for step-outs because I really don't recall. Sorry! My memory just isn't that great.

The PCS comment was actually in relation to how Ksenia Tsibinova got 7.65 in skating skills when I feel like she's actually quite great in that category, and then seeing Kamila get 9.15. There isn't that big a difference there.

I mean, everyone uses "selling" so it seems weird to try to coin a new term now. I mean selling a program and selling a dress are different concepts. A program can be choreographed extremely well but if the skater doesn't show the passion, or the emotion, or the beauty I still won't be sold on it. The "selling" comes from the skater, not the product (or program), they have to show you why you should love their program and their skating through their movements and emotions. Nonetheless, I just don't see that many emotions in Kamila's skating yet.

I said I don't believe you don't remember and still don't

The original post started with "why so many people would prefer Kamila over Alyona when it somes to PCS" and neither that nor your reaction anyhow contained Tsibinova. To make myself clear, I wouldn't have a problem with Tsibinova getting PCS around 9, while I disagree with the people demanding lowering Kamila's score to not touch untouchable Aliona. And yes, it was Aliona (and I mean it seriously that I don't believe you don't know). With all your ranting about how they dare to give so small negative score to Kamila when Aliona, who you praise here the totally uncritical way, actually got positive GOE precisely for a step-out, it simply causes that your complaints can't be taken seriously.
Howgh.

 

[Ophelia]

In general I'm having issues understanding why so many people would prefer Kamila over Alyona when it somes to PCS. I think they come very close to each other in terms of musicality, but I think that Alyona can really sell anything, when Kamila is only selling me those soft lyrical programs.

Kamila’s lines are indeed beautiful and balletic, but it is mostly due to her very long limbs (I think they are giving her longer dresses to even it up a little). However she is missing some kind of "power" and flow in my opinion, and Alyona’s step sequences are simply better.

Another point is that Valievas jumps are not so pretty, are they? I mean quads are great when jumped alone but her 3-3?
Seems very messy, she moves weirdly betwen the jumps and they seem to be flowless as well.

Besides she is a junior, she will get through puberty soon. I think that it is simply too soon to name her Olimpic champion already, and this is that Rusfed seems to be doing.

I loved her "storm" sp yesterday, but comparing with Alyonas "adios nonino" you get a clear picture of which one of them is a better, more artistic skater.

Agreed.

I'd wager posters are dumping on Kostornaia bc she left Camp Tutberidze.

 

[lappo]

I don't think that Kamila is a better spinner than Alyona was her age.

I think they are both excellent spinners, Kamila though has her extreme flexibility as an advantage which makes her spins incredibly impressive to see (even to non FS fans...my boyfriend wondered several times how she could humanly do her spins, when I showed him KV programs).

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

I said I don't believe you don't reember and still don't

The original post started with "why so many people would prefer Kamila over Alyona when it somes to PCS" and neither that nor your reaction anyhow contained Tsibinova. To make myself clear, I wouldn't have a problem with Tsibinova getting PCS around 9, while I disagree with the people demanding lowering Kamila's score to not touch untouchable Aliona. And yes, it was Aliona (and I mean it seriously that I don't believe you don't know). With all your ranting about how they dare to give so small negative score to Kamila when Aliona, who you praise here the totally uncritical way, actually got positive GOE precisely for a step-out, it simply causes that your complaints can't be taken seriously.
Howgh.

Oh yes Alyona! I seriously did forget (I am being swamped by SATs and physics homework and such). If you doubt my stupidity then seriously I well tell you that when I saw Alyona I actually did gasp. Yes Alyona didn't deserve it, but I found her score fair enough because honestly the jumps (again barring that one) were good the steps were good and the PCS were good. I really didn't find it that suspicious and thus didn't delve into it. (So plus points for height and distance, rippon, and then -3 for step-out so resulting -1. Again, conversation could be made about effortless or entrance, resulting in 0 or +1, but now taking a look at it again, it probably should have been -1). I would actually be more sad about the layback GOE because that should have definitely been lower. But then again, that does not mean that Kamila's score is valid just because I forgot about Alyona's score, nor does it make my arguments invalid. And I don't recall me saying anything about "why so many people would prefer Kamila over Alyona when it comes to to PCS". I just said Alyona and Rika have better combos (which they do), better steps (which they do) and better skating skills (which they do). I didn't say Kamila's score should be lower than theirs because they have better skating skills, I only said her score for skating skills should be lower. I didn't give a reason. And here I present it to you. And it's not like Alyona is untouchable in skating skills, I think Kostyuk, Kanysheva and Higuchi all have better skating skills. And not once in this conversation did I say anything about Alyona's jumps (besides the first post which talked about combos). IN the step sequence aspect I have nothing to criticize except for this season's FS, which I made clear by excluding it from the list of step sequences of Alyona's which I found better than Kamila's.

 

[Fluture]

My biggest issue with Storm is actually the music? Not to say the music isn't great, because it is, but because It's a little too simple for Kamila. I want her to skate to something a little bit different than her previous skates. In Storm, there is a clear baseline of notes, and a simple melody, and that just makes for a bit of a simple program, or at least an illusion of a simple program.

Haha, that‘s funny because this is exactly what I love about Kamila‘s SP. It might be “simple“ in the way the music is constructed but I love that subtlety. I wish they‘d gone along with that a bit more (too many frantic moves at some points that create a jarred impression) But I just like how they used the musical accents, I love the theme of a bird and I think Kamila‘s skating suits it so well. She‘s airy, light, almost ethereal - just birdlike. I’d still argue her performance at test skates was the best of it, she hit every note and the choreo was also the best there. Since then they‘ve altered it a bit and I feel it doesn‘t match the music as much now. Another thing to work on would be that spiral. It could be a lovely moment, she just needs to hit it right on those piano notes.

You said you want something different from her than her past programs. Thing is - Bolero IS different. And I think it doesn‘t work for her at all. At least at the moment. Her weakness, right now, is her lack of expression and you can’t mask that with extensions and flow. She looks like she‘s drowning in Bolero and honestly, I can‘t blame her. The music is very, very difficult to skate to and few skaters even attempt it. There‘s a reason for that. I‘m sure she‘ll improve (she‘s already growing into it), I‘m just not sure “different“ is always better. Experimenting and leaving one‘s comfort zone is a good thing to do but imo, it needs to be gradual. Kamila’s Bolero reminds me of Zhenya‘s Orange Coloured Sky in that it could have been a good idea in principle but then was just too much too soon. Let‘s wait and see.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Yes that's all very nice... now are you done? I do realize that Kamila is a threat to Sasha and that doesn't feel nice to you, but these forced fake opinions are really getting tiring now. Always this same crap when Kamila skates nicely

First of all, in the post you quoted I said nothing about Sasha. As the matter of fact this entire day I have said nothing about Sasha. I think Kamila is a better skater artistically than Sasha. I think Kamila's quads, when landed well, are just as good as Sasha's. I think Kamila's spins are leagues ahead of Sasha's. Yes I love Sasha, and yes she's my favorite skater and yes I will root for her in every competition she's entered in, but my annoyance at Kamila's score does not come from my love for Sasha and I don't understand how you could possibly come to that opinion. Sasha is overscored too! Does that mean I dislike her? I've said plenty of things about how Sasha's quad lutz was flawed, on how her spins needed work, on how she needed to perform more, on how she doesn't deserve the GOE she gets for certain elements, on how she deserves "e" calls on flips, but that doesn't mean I dislike her. I actually like Kamila, which may seem odd to everyone here. I rooted for her to win every single competition she was entered in last season. But I still can't agree with this score. What kind of forced opinions are happening here? Kamila doesn't emote enough. I sincerely believe it and one can recall that the two people i compared her to, and said were better in emoting, were Alyona and Anya. Nothing about Sasha because Sasha doesn't emote either. I said Kamila's skating skills don't deserve those scores because of Ksenia Tsibinova, not Sasha because Sasha doesn't deserve high SS scores in comparison to those she skated against too (Alyona, Dasha, though her SS aren't that bad either honestly, she just needs to work on them more, they were fine her debut junior season). I said Kamila's flip was tiny and shouldn't get +4s. Where does that have to do with Sasha? Sasha's flip doesn't deserve +4 GOEs either because it's a lip! I might be wrong about some things and I may be biased, and the step-out argument might be more subjective than objective (thanks flanker for pointing out the Alyona thing, I seriously would have forgotten, time to check my biases!) but in no way am I trying to drag Kamila down to bring Sasha up. Sasha is so great she doesn't need me to try to vouch for her greatness. And Kamila is skating nicely, very lovely! But I just didn't think her SP warranted that score. That doesn't mean I don't think she's a great skater. After all, 83 would have placed her with the third-highest score internationally, and I'm saying she should have been around 81, still in the like the top 5 and still much higher than Sasha has gotten.

 

[alexocfp]

We might very well have witnessed a future world champion skate tonight.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

You said you want something different from her than her past programs. Thing is - Bolero IS different. And I think it doesn‘t work for her at all. At least at the moment. Her weakness, right now, is her lack of expression and you can’t mask that with extensions and flow. She looks like she‘s drowning in Bolero and honestly, I can‘t blame her. The music is very, very difficult to skate to and few skaters even attempt it. There‘s a reason for that. I‘m sure she‘ll improve (she‘s already growing into it), I‘m just not sure “different“ is always better. Experimenting and leaving one‘s comfort zone is a good thing to do but imo, it needs to be gradual. Kamila’s Bolero reminds me of Zhenya‘s Orange Coloured Sky in that it could have been a good idea in principle but then was just too much too soon. Let‘s wait and see.

Yeah, I just wanted a slow program, not Bolero. I think they were being way too ambitious with the Bolero choice. I think she should be going in a different direction (the opposite direction of Bolero). Something slow, with slow choreography too. That's why I really loved Storm as an EX, because they let her hold out spirals and there weren't any frantic movements. Also the combo spin was exactly on the music and it was a thing of beauty. When Kamila is doing five thousand positions in two seconds, it looks rushed and she looks nervous, even if she isn't. If they just let her hold those extensions and spirals she'd look elegant and compose and even if she didn't emote as much with her face, just a held spiral would be enough to convince me of how great a skater she is.

 

[nussnacker]

Anyways...
good job to all who qualified for nationals!
I was happy to see Nastya T. skate again, shame about the mistakes, but all things considered, she is doing quite well.
Good job to Kamila for 2 rippon 4Ts (that’s the first time she landed 2 I believe), and a rippon 3A
At this point of time Kamila, Anna and Sasha are looking like the strongest 3 of Russia. Kamila’s 3A, 4T & PCS, if all clean, can likely give her #1 in Russia and world. However, she seems to be a nervous skater. Even though she didn’t have any competition here, she still got too tense and messed up her 3Lz. Quads looked giant and rotated in the air, super impressive! However, I felt like she was nervous on her quads too.

But of course a lot can change even within one year, ice is slippery, so the game is still on for russian girls.

 

[Mathman]

So does this mean that the Trusova/Shcherbakava/Kostornia epoch is history and the new era is upon us?

 

[Skatesocs]

So does this mean that the Trusova/Shcherbakava/Kostornia epoch is history and the new era is upon us?

Yeah.

Well I don't know about "new era". I don't see Kromykh beating any of those three, and Usacheva probably will lose to their best too. It's probably better to claim that Valieva is set to be the Zagitova Expy at the next Olympics.