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- Nov 12, 2011
why doesn't everyone do quads??? why are some skaters "okay" with just doing triples when they are perfectly capable of doing quads? it's not rocket science. why do they just choose to lose points?
2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating
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- Apr 17, 2018
I mean there's a difference between a step sequence and quads you know? Like, take Alyona's FS StSq this season which is constantly getting level 2s. You can't say it's too difficult for her to skater to a level 4 step sequence because we all know Alyona is more than capable of skating a level 4 step sequence and that Shae-Lynn Bourne is more than capable of creating them. And these are top skaters, and a good majority of them are more than capable of skating level 4 step sequences. I think for spins skaters sometimes either miscount or they are behind their music so they don't hit all the required bullets for a level 4. I'm not a skater, but I would assume that trying to hit just two or three difficult variations and a flying entrance would be just a bit easier than trying to do a quad. I mean you can't say these skater don't know how to do difficult variations or that they can't possibly spin in one position for more than eight revolutions or that it's impossible for them to attempt a change of edge. And here's the thing, I'm pretty sure that next year that battle for Olympic spots might come down to spin levels and step sequence levels. When you're at a Challenger event that you're sure your going to win, losing a couple of levels might not be detrimental, but with competitors this close, a StSq3 or CCoSp3 might be all you need to fall behind.
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- Feb 10, 2018
I'll wait till I see that, but that could explain why Kamila was inconsistent with triples at the cup stages.
If she has this 4 quad program I think she will probably do the 4T+Eul+3S in the second half. She needs to do one quad in the second half and 4T is the way to go.
If we compare this to the program she had at nationals (with two 3Lzs so scrap the 3F) and assuming +3 in GOE
4S instead of a 2A ---> +8.46
4T instead of 3F ---> +6.79
! call on 3F in the short plus levels lost in both programs ---> +3.33
Total +18.58 if she's squeaky clean
She lost to Anna with -17.73 points so this would be just enough to beat a clean Anna. But when Anna adds her third quad this program won't be enough anyway. Sasha is too far behind in PCS and GOEs.
So she needs the 3A. If she scraps the 4S to do a 3A instead in the long it will be -2.21, but if she also has the 3A in the short that would be +6.11.
The plus side of this strategy would be that she only needs to focus and train the 4Lz and 4T and the 3A. That's three difficult jumps that must be super solid. If she trains all the quads + the 3A she risks that none of the quads or the 3A are stable.
And there is no room for changing quads into triples.
4 or 5 quads in a program is cool and we all want to see it - but I firmly think it's a bad strategy that has too many risks and it will never get Sasha to victories. I'm with Eteri on this one!
And now there is not only Anna she needs to worry about. It's Kamila, Alyona and probably Daria that will challenge her moving forwards. Sasha don't have the time to play with 4-5 quad programs, she needs to have clean skates.
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- Dec 9, 2019
Please do not be intentionally obtuse. I'm sure a quad is significantly more difficult than adding brackets and counters to the steps or doing a choreo that looks visually pleasing. Why in God's name is Alyona getting a level 2 on Step sequence when she has one of the best skating skills in the world? Why does Trusova continue to use the same step sequence in her free even though it keeps getting the same level 3? (Also same as last year, Anna and Trusova got level 3 almost half of the season with little change in the choreo). Why does Trusova keeps losing levels in her spins even though she's perfectly capable of all level 4 spins?
In Russian nationals, Kamila won the free skate over Trusova by about 3 points. All points that she could've gotten if she hadn't lost all those levels and if she had done a decent choreo sequence.
I know jumps give you the most points per element but losing little points like this adds up over elements.
Its not like the programs are designed to give lv2/3 steps or spins intentionally its more like skaters loosing focus or not performing to their max ability towards the end of their programs.
Stsq is not that easy to judge relly at least not for the casual observer and just missing a single edge in one of your clusters can cause you to loose a level.
In spins it usually comes down to one of two things. Firstly positions not properly meeting the requirement. I find this most comon in sit spins Liza T and Rika (i know not russian but still) do this quite frequently that they sit just above the required depth (butt at knee height or below) and whenever I watch them I find myself sreaming in my head for then to sit lower.
Secondly is that the proper positions isnt held for the right amount of revolutions. It might be a case of not paying attention or that they are late in their programs and trying to catch up.
Im sure allof the top skaters are capable of doing the spins and steps at max level in practice as individual elemts. Its consistently delivering them in the context of a program that often it the problem. That imo is one of the things that sets the eteri team apart in that they clearly drill their girls in paying proper attention and never losing levels on anything unless there is a fall or something like that involved.
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- Jun 21, 2003
It does indeed. A good example is Alina Zagitova recovering from missing her first attempt at the 3Lz+3Lo combo in free skate at the Olympics.
Michelle Kwan used to practice two different endings to her programs. If she hit her 3T+3T combination at the beginning, then she did a split jump at the end. If she missed the combo, then the split jump was replaced by a solo triple toe to bring up her count of triples.
Still ... I think the mind set of a champion is, "If you want to beat me, BEAT THIS!"
As for worrying about what her competitors might or might not do, "You got yours, I got mine. Bring it!"
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- Dec 31, 2019
No it changes her entire layout. It forces her to think on the fly and make sure she's not kayaking but still getting an optimal number of points while also not having "trained" that specific layout.
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- Jun 6, 2019
With her current layout, yes. But the layout I proposed allowed two quads to be directly substitute for triples.
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- Feb 2, 2019
Yes, that 3Lz+3Lo combo save that Alina did! One of the highlights ever IMO. I was screaming out loud when she did it. And it was a beauty too!It does indeed. A good example is Alina Zagitova recovering from missing her first attempt at the 3Lz+3Lo combo in free skate at the Olympics.
Michelle Kwan used to practice two different endings to her programs. If she hit her 3T+3T combination at the beginning, then she did a split jump at the end. If she missed the combo, then the split jump was replaced by a solo triple toe to bring up her count of triples.
Still ... I think the mind set of a champion is, "If you want to beat me, BEAT THIS!"
As for worrying about what her competitors might or might not do, "You got yours, I got mine. Bring it!"
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2018
My favorite moment of "quick thinking" was probably Kseniia Sinitsyna adding a +2T onto a pretty bad 3Lz at Junior Worlds and then successfully completing a 3Lo+3T later (I think she might've URed it but whatever).It does indeed. A good example is Alina Zagitova recovering from missing her first attempt at the 3Lz+3Lo combo in free skate at the Olympics.
Michelle Kwan used to practice two different endings to her programs. If she hit her 3T+3T combination at the beginning, then she did a split jump at the end. If she missed the combo, then the split jump was replaced by a solo triple toe to bring up her count of triples.
Still ... I think the mind set of a champion is, "If you want to beat me, BEAT THIS!"
As for worrying about what her competitors might or might not do, "You got yours, I got mine. Bring it!"
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2018
Does anyone know when the ISU will allow ladies to do quads in the short? I mean I'm sure it will happen one day with this rate of quad jumping going on, but how long will we have to wait?
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- Nov 12, 2011
i would be surprised if they didn't change it for the next cycle.
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- Sep 22, 2019
As you (and I, in reply to TTN's post) said, only the vertical acceleration determines total height attained. Vilord and I made that quite clear. The takeoff angle is determined by the resultant velocity which is a vector summation of x and y components of velocity. So as you said, takeoff angle is affected by entry speed (x), but that's not necessarily the main determining factor (talking about angle not height). The fact that every skater is going to try jumping upward doesn't mean that
will be similar for all skaters. To nitpick, taking off will also have a y component acceleration (not just x) although its contribution to overall y velocity in competent skaters is less in proportion to the acceleration obtained by stroking during the jump setup. That's how people jump 2A or 3A from a standstill.
As stated clearly in my previous post.
We were talking about the *visual effect* of Tuk's 3A height. My point was that all 3As have a similar vertical height if their rotational velocity is similar, including hers. So she probably doesn't have exceptional height but neither is she below average.
TTN suggested the visual effect could be due to a steeper takeoff angle (which as you mentioned can be due to lack of entry speed).
Your point about the jump looking higher in proportion to her short body is also valid (might also explain Midori Ito's impressive jump, although Ito definitely had tremendous actual height).
Anyway, given that everyone has to finish the same 3.5 rotations before landing and the way parabolic mechanics work, the skaters who must be jumping higher (not just appearing to) are the ones with lower average rotational speed - either slower throughout (Yagudin?), or fast but have a slight delay (Hanyu?) or early check-out (Kolyada?)
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- Nov 19, 2020
As you (and I, in reply to TTN's post) said, only the vertical acceleration determines total height attained. Vilord and I made that quite clear. The takeoff angle is determined by the resultant velocity which is a vector summation of x and y components of velocity. So as you said, takeoff angle is affected by entry speed (x), but that's not necessarily the main determining factor (talking about angle not height). The fact that every skater is going to try jumping upward doesn't mean that
To nitpick, taking off will also have a y component acceleration (not just x) although its contribution to overall y velocity in competent skaters is less in proportion to the acceleration obtained by stroking during the jump setup. That's how people jump 2A or 3A from a standstill.
As stated clearly in my previous post.
We were talking about the *visual effect* of Tuk's 3A height. My point was that all 3As have a similar vertical height if their rotational velocity is similar, including hers. So she probably doesn't have exceptional height but neither is she below average.
TTN suggested the visual effect could be due to a steeper takeoff angle (which as you mentioned can be due to lack of entry speed).
Your point about the jump looking higher in proportion to her short body is also valid (might also explain Midori Ito's impressive jump, although Ito definitely had tremendous actual height).
Anyway, given that everyone has to finish the same 3.5 rotations before landing and the way parabolic mechanics work, the skaters who must be jumping higher (not just appearing to) are the ones with lower average rotational speed - either slower throughout (Yagudin?), or fast but have a slight delay (Hanyu?) or early check-out (Kolyada?)
Just a quick thought to add that might generate more thoughts: we get to see a lot of footage of the Russian ladies doing their jumps in sneakers, on dry land (thanks, among other sources, to the totally epic Channel One videos, with their techno music and slow-mo high-def shots). Often they jump up from a standstill and get their rotations in... (Though it seems like when they practice their axels on dry land they usually take a few steps into it.)
Thanks to all for very interesting contributions on this!
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- Feb 22, 2014
Wait, in the context of the rest of your post this part doesn't seem to make sense?
Sasha is so far behind Anna and Kamila in PCS and GOEs she can barely win doing 4 quads to their 2, so she should do less quads?
If I've learnt anything it's that PCS and GOEs won't suddenly rise if a skater stops doing quads in order to concentrate on performing cleanly. They probably should, the rules indicate they should, but let's face it they don't. Particularly for Sasha, maybe it's her own fault, but she is the "Quad Queen" if she starts doing less quads the judges will punish her for trying to take the "easy way" out.
Maybe... maybe if she can get a 3A it might work, but that's risky right now.
I found it surprisingly stange being refered to by my username here but considering we dont know eachothers real names I guess it would be even more strange if someone got it right
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