Apparently I didn’t carry out my sarcasm successfully. Or did I? I actually meant that those words would be how some people respond to your post... As a matter of fact, I think I’ve see those arguments in various threads before, and it all sounds too familiar.
Plushenko: "What is happening is absurd."
- Thread starter LoveSkater
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- Aug 11, 2018
Forgive me. I really didn't get it)
Not at all. I think it caused enough confusion. I deleted the post.
The edge qualities in Alex’s videos are questionable to the least. They are from the same competition. Was it pure luck that those jumps didn’t get called? Of course it’s not because of being lucky. Of course those jumps got a pass. That makes the picking on Sasha’s 3F even more standing out.
Selective justice is not justice. In competitive sports, that may well change the ranking order. Not this time. But, some time it will.
Am I surprised? No. It is hard to believe there is no politics behind the door. It could be plain favoritism, nepotism, or bribery. Or all of the above. I don’t see why Plushenko isn’t allowed to challenge the judging practice and bring up the issues if he learned some insider information. What else can and should he do?
To me, the girls are all extremely talented, and each has her own distinctive style and strength. Sadly not all of them can make it to the Olympic, and even more sadly is it seems that giving everyone a fair chance and letting them play on a leveled field are too much to ask for under the current environment.
Selective justice is not justice. In competitive sports, that may well change the ranking order. Not this time. But, some time it will.
Am I surprised? No. It is hard to believe there is no politics behind the door. It could be plain favoritism, nepotism, or bribery. Or all of the above. I don’t see why Plushenko isn’t allowed to challenge the judging practice and bring up the issues if he learned some insider information. What else can and should he do?
To me, the girls are all extremely talented, and each has her own distinctive style and strength. Sadly not all of them can make it to the Olympic, and even more sadly is it seems that giving everyone a fair chance and letting them play on a leveled field are too much to ask for under the current environment.
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- Jun 14, 2014
I wish Alena had been smarter than changing to Plushenko at all, but especially last minute after closing window, 1.5 years before the Olympics.
Yes, he may grant more individual demands to his skaters, yes he has money and can buy her sponsors, yes in Eteri's group everyone follows the same fixed system no matter if 16yo GPF champion or 8yo nobody BUT, now she is in the middle of this petty mess.
I can only pray the judges will not punish her for Plushenko's behavior as well, on top of Sasha.
If you like Eteri's methods or not- she brings the best results. And no, this is not cause she bribes the judges and holds their wives hostage or whatever he comes up with, it's because they are the best skaters. They rack up the most points. Period.
Did they "favor" Kamila and Anna over Sasha by giving them higher GOEs and PCS? Maybe. Maybe Kamila and Anna were simply better in that department.
Would Sasha have deserved a final score that was 5 points higher? Maybe. Wouldn't have changed a thing.
Overall, the podium placements were exactly fair.
Yes, he may grant more individual demands to his skaters, yes he has money and can buy her sponsors, yes in Eteri's group everyone follows the same fixed system no matter if 16yo GPF champion or 8yo nobody BUT, now she is in the middle of this petty mess.
I can only pray the judges will not punish her for Plushenko's behavior as well, on top of Sasha.
If you like Eteri's methods or not- she brings the best results. And no, this is not cause she bribes the judges and holds their wives hostage or whatever he comes up with, it's because they are the best skaters. They rack up the most points. Period.
Did they "favor" Kamila and Anna over Sasha by giving them higher GOEs and PCS? Maybe. Maybe Kamila and Anna were simply better in that department.
Would Sasha have deserved a final score that was 5 points higher? Maybe. Wouldn't have changed a thing.
Overall, the podium placements were exactly fair.
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Objectively, Anna did 3 lutzes with a bad edge and objectively didn't get called on any, and objectively got higher GOE on each one than Sasha.
so yeah, it's not that they were simply "better in that department" necessarily. And the SP jump GOE's too.
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- Feb 27, 2014
Alena days she is very emotional. I think that explains her decision. A decision that may be very well cost her a spot on the Olympic team. But she's also very smart. She is also the most beautiful skater out there and probably figured she can handle puberty and changes and when she gets her 3A back will light it up again having again and again.
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- Aug 11, 2018
I have the right to disagree with you. For each item.
The problem is that they don't always score those huge points. Judges, based on their own preferences, endow them with this, often cynically violating their own rules of refereeing. Only a complete disaster of one of the favorites can change something. The sports competition turns into a staged show. I in no way detract from the personal qualities of these athletes. All of them. Sometimes I manage to put on skates and go out on the ice, and I can well imagine how much work and pain all these girls have put into this sport in their short life. I have tremendous respect for these young female athletes. But I hate it when adults play their adult games in order to gain privilege, money, power or fame for themselves. Adults who have long forgotten that they are called to this competition with only one purpose: to objectively record the result of this competition. Instead, they become almost the main characters on this show. I am totally against it.
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- Dec 18, 2014
The only advantage Sasha had is that her lutz edge was deeper. But nowhere in the rules is stated that lutz edge should be deep, slightly outside edge is still a lutz edge. Anna's quads were fully rotated on the landing with a much better flow, while Sasha's were on a quarter (or just above that) with a lot of snow on the landing. Better landing = better GOE is the first and foremost rule of judging jumps (in real time). Not to say Anna's jumps were better incorporated in the skating pattern/with the music/whole programme. There was no interruptions in the programme for the jumps to happen. Take off is just one part of judging jumps, maybe 20% of it. If 80% of the rest is better, the overall GOE will be better.
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- Aug 11, 2018
It makes no sense to argue about this, especially in this thread. You can argue endlessly about the edge, but there should still be a point of dispute
Slightly external, almost not flat, obviously not inside, and heaps of definitions for such cases - this is what should receive the "attention" sign, that is "!". Both Quads Sasha enters into a musical accent, second quad Anna on a flat quiet place music. You can check)
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- Dec 18, 2014
Even if you deduct -1 GOE for the take off (flat edge) from positives, Anna's quads in FP would have been at least on pair or one GOE point ahead of Sasha's quads (at Nationals). I was trying to simply explain why Anna's quads GOE was higher (because with Sasha there was a clear preparation for the jump and not that good landing). If somebody believe to know better than everyone of nine judges who were on the panel, he/she can freely believe in thatIt makes no sense to argue about this, especially in this thread. You can argue endlessly about the edge, but there should still be a point of dispute
Both Quads Sasha enters into a musical accent, second quad Anna on a flat quiet place music. You can check)
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- Nov 8, 2014
I don't agree with how Plushenko went about this, particularly harping on Usacheva so publicly, but I'm having a hard time reckoning with this too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FenKtRH640. It's quite inexplicable how Shcherbakova's inside edge, pre-rotated, full-bladed takeoff of her lutz scores higher than Trusova's Rippon lutz. Sure, there is leniency all around--like with Trusova's flip--but the quads acquire so many points that I think they warrant more intensive scrutinization here (of course all jumps should be equally scrutinized by judges).
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I have this information:Even if you deduct -1 GOE for take off (flat edge) from positives, Anna's quads in FP would have been at least on pair or one GOE point ahead of Sasha's quads (at Nationals). I was trying to simply explain why Anna's quads GOE was higher (because with Sasha there was a clear preparation for the jump and not that good landing). If somebody believe to know better than everyone of nine judges who were on the panel, he/she can freely believe in that
"There is a penalty for "!" - 1-2 goe .
In addition, you cannot score a bullet with a good lead. The starting goe is no more than +3. The final, even theoretically, is no more than +2 per jump. In practice, from 0 to - 2"
Anna has 4 to 5 such jumps for 2 programs. And these are its most expensive elements.
You will easily be able to calculate her real points IF THE REFEREES FOLLOW THE RULES.
This can help:
And this is Anna's last start:
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- Apr 26, 2018
Well, I have a problem with Anna‘s lutz edges not being called, too, but in this example, I think her scoring higher than Sasha is justified.
You say Anna‘s quads are “pre-rotated and with a full-blade take-off“ but... if you want to call it that - so are Sasha‘s! At least on the quad lutz! Their take off looks the exact same. And here Anna had a better, smoother landing. Not to mention that Sasha‘s landing looked borderline UR. So, if you deduct points for Anna‘s edges, but also deduct points for Sasha‘s q (or UR) landing, you end up at about the same GOE. If not an advantage for Anna if they’d called Sasha’s quad UR. I don‘t think the rippon changes that much - is it even still a GOE bullet?
I do agree that Sasha was more penalized than others here (though, let‘s not kid ourselves, she also got some gifts by the judges) - especially in the SP, where she should have been closer to the leaders. And overall, I disagree with the difference of almost 20 (!) points between her and Anna. Where did that come from? They both did really, really well but not perfectly and it should have been much closer than it ended up being. Still, I think Anna‘s the deserved champion and now an absolute legend with those three titles.
The problem with Plushenko‘s complaining is that it‘s so selective and over the top. I appreciate him trying to change things but I don‘t think he has the right motivation - if it was his skaters being overscored, I doubt he‘d say a word. Which is...natural but also makes him look like a hypocrite.
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)) You can be sure of this. IMO. He would be happy and triumphant. There can be no illusions about this. Which does not negate everything said above in this thread.
I'll add one last thing. Nobody disputes the final result of the Russian Championship. I, at least, have not come across such opinions anywhere. I'm glad that adequate people prevail among Sasha's fans)
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- Dec 18, 2014
First of all, those are guidelines for the judging, not the strict rules. And it is written that jump has to have a good take-off and the landing, not very good or exceptional. Anna's edge is at worst flat (dependable of the strictness of the tech panel and the day of the competition). So Anna's quad at nationals was certainly between +3 (if you think that take off is not that good but not bad either) and +4 GOE, and if you personally want to deduct for a takeoff and an unclear edge you can give it +2, because everything else is in positives (or there is nothing more to deduct). But as you can see in the score sheets, in that case your mark would be taken as an error and not counted in the final score at all. Not any single judge of the nine of them thought that Anna's take off is that wrong to deserve that severe deduction (some of them just thought how the rewarding of that part of the jump is not justified either). Sasha's quad at nationals can be judged with +2 at max, due to the not good landing (lack of full rotation on the landing) and jump not being integral part of the whole skating programme.
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Maybe it doesn’t but it still makes him look less credible. Imo, what’s needed is an "outsider“ who "doesn’t have a horse in this race“ and can look at it at least somewhat objectively but is still involved with figure skating. But I doubt this is going to happen.
In the end, I just hope this doesn’t backfire (even more) on Sasha and Aliona. They don’t deserve to be punished if the fed doesn’t like Plushenko‘s comments....
I admit I don't know better than the judges. So I'd like to hear from judge no.6 and his/her take on the fs of Sasha and Daria, and the reason to rank Daria's fs ahead of Sasha's despite 16 points BV difference. I guess there are other things I don't understand as well. Or if you agree with him/her, perhaps you can educate me.Even if you deduct -1 GOE for take off (flat edge) from positives, Anna's quads in FP would have been at least on pair or one GOE point ahead of Sasha's quads (at Nationals). I was trying to simply explain why Anna's quads GOE was higher (because with Sasha there was a clear preparation for the jump and not that good landing). If somebody believe to know better than everyone of nine judges who were on the panel, he/she can freely believe in that
Enhanced protocol
https://skatingscores.com/2021/natrus/ladies/long/
Also according to that judge, Anna's GOE: +28, Kamila: +26, Daira: +22, and Sasha: +12. So it's like Sasha's technical quality is less than half as good as the rest of the top 4.
And it’s TES alone. If including PCS gap, it will be another +7 points. In theory, Sasha is additional TWO clean 4Lz, or THREE clean 3A, away from making up her “lack” of technical and program component quality, just in free skate only.
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Sasha played it safe by omitting the triple axel in the short program, while a flawed triple axel could have scored higher than a clean double axel. It is understandable that Pluschenko tried to avoid another disaster by changing program layouts so that Sasha could skate both programs cleanly, which she did successfully at the Russian national championships.
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- Dec 18, 2014
That's why not every judges mark is counted in the final scores (minimum and maximum mark in the panel of judges is omitted from the final scores), as it is the case with many of the marks of that particular judge. He/she can certainly explain to you his/her decisions, but in a statistical sense some of the scores of that judge can be define as an error, and they are being eliminated.
E: Also, keep in mind that GOE is not just a pure technical quality, nor TES is a pure technical score. Some parts of GOE are artistically (creativity/variety/musicality) oriented, related to the jumping in a 'public space', with the whole skating ability, or some other 'non-technical' factors.
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