Plushenko: "What is happening is absurd."

[Alex65]

That's not true. That judge (#6) gave Sasha lower marks on 3 elements out of 12 in FS. And all this marks doesn't count by the rules.
Also judge #6 gave Sasha higher marks than some other judges on 4 elements out of 12 in FS.
Also judge #6 gave Sasha ZERO lower marks in SP.
That's how maths works.

Only, as a result of this mathematics, it was this judge who put Sasha in the final 4th place. Behind Usacheva. That's it. Beautiful mathematics.

 

[sinus]

Only, as a result of this mathematics, it was this judge who put Sasha in the final 4th place. Behind Usacheva. That's it. Beautiful mathematics.

And two judges put Sasha's FS in the 2nd place while Kamila's FS was much better. Weren't they 'charged' by Plushenko after the SP?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

No if Sasha lost by that I'd be more able to accept it. Basically, it seems to me that the judges don't like her and want her to disappear.

Were Anna and Kamila honestly that much better than her? 10 and 20 points better? I don't see it. And like I said, at some point losing by so much doesn't motivate (if that's what they were trying to do) it demotivates. Or leads to Sasha trying 5 quads and people complaining about that. Either way she loses, either the gold medal or skating fans respect (the good old "She's a jumping robot who's destroying our beautiful sport!").

And yes Plushy probably will end up shooting himself in the foot, but if it gets some change going shouldn't we be glad? Why should a whole bunch of skaters (from numerous countries) get away with uncalled edges? Why should some get huge PCS's with falls? It's like some exclusive club rather than a sport

If it gets change going the only thing it will bring about it other coaches being emboldened to whine about their skaters’ marks until the judges are strongarmed into favouring their skaters.

 

[anonymoose_au]

If it gets change going the only thing it will bring about it other coaches being emboldened to whine about their skaters’ marks until the judges are strongarmed into favouring their skaters.

Are you saying that you accept every single judging decision? That you've never thought this skater was underscored or overscored? That the system is perfect?

I think people are overestimating Plushy's power, the ISU isn't going to change anything just for him. They were more than happy to ban him for skating in a show and wouldn't re-instate him until he sent a written letter of apology (it's probably still on the ISU website). Detractors should cheer him on, actually, they might ban him again and then there can be much rejoicing in the land.

Plus if the judges are correct and can show they are correct then any complaint will be tossed out (as happens in gymnastics, they even have a system where if the score is upheld you have to pay them so the systems isn't abused).

If it wasn't for questioning judges Sale and Pelletier would never have got their gold (which I personally thought they didn't deserve, but hey as long as it's not a Russian complaint, I guess?).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Are you saying that you accept every single judging decision? That you've never thought this skater was underscored or overscored? That the system is perfect?

I think people are overestimating Plushy's power, the ISU isn't going to change anything just for him. They were more than happy to ban him for skating in a show and wouldn't re-instate him until he sent a written letter of apology (it's probably still on the ISU website). Detractors should cheer him on, actually, they might ban him again and then there can be much rejoicing in the land.

Plus if the judges are correct and can show they are correct then any complaint will be tossed out (as happens in gymnastics, they even have a system where if the score is upheld you have to pay them so the systems isn't abused).

If it wasn't for questioning judges Sale and Pelletier would never have got their gold (which I personally thought they didn't deserve, but hey as long as it's not a Russian complaint, I guess?).

Sale and Pelletier was a different scenario. Can Plushenko prove there was a Marie Le Gougne at Russian Nationals, and one whose scoring actually affected the outcome?

There’s nothing wrong with questioning results or judging, but it’s also important to not live through rose coloured glasses. I get it - every fan and coach wants a million points for their skater and the slightest judging anomaly will drive them to believe a system is rigged.

But unless you can provide concrete evidence of impropriety, it is utterly pointless to condemn judging in which you simply want your skater to get more points and their rivals to get fewer points.

Not to mention Plushenko has a history of outspokenness and saltiness whenever judging doesn’t go his way. When he competed he assumed that him skating clean would result in perfect scores and entitle him to an automatic win. He didn’t even believe he needed transitions or more complex choreo because it was all about nailing the jump content and calling it a day. We are now seeing that with Trusova.

This will be ongoing - every time she loses, or gets any tech call, he will be inclined to complain that she deserves better. Any time her rival skates well and gets higher PCS or no calls he will be inclined to question it.

 

[anonymoose_au]

This will be ongoing - every time she loses, or gets any tech call, he will be inclined to complain that she deserves better. Any time her rival skates well and gets higher PCS or no calls he will be inclined to question it.

So what? If he's wrong as apparently he is, who gives a damn? People will either roll their eyes, ignore him or eventually boot him out of the sport.

Although if he wants to question the glaring lack of edge calls, he's well within his rights since everyone else does.

If people find him so repellent and insufferable why bother discussing him at all? Just pretend he doesn't exist

Or if you really think he's so horrible for the sport send a complaint in, get all like minded people to send a complaint in. I'm sure if enough of you do then he will be banned and everyone can go back to the perfect world of figure skating where no judge is ever biased and all those awful mindless jumping machines can keep on losing and leave the sport as well.

BTW I hope you appreciate the irony in the fact that Sasha only did 2 quads at Nats, far less than she would do normally.

Maybe if she had tried 4 she would have won in which case we could have spent our time bitching about her lack of artistry and crap skating skills. Riveting stuff!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So what? If he's wrong as apparently he is, who gives a damn? People will either roll their eyes, ignore him or eventually boot him out of the sport.

Although if he wants to question the glaring lack of edge calls, he's well within his rights since everyone else does.

If people find him so repellent and insufferable why bother discussing him at all? Just pretend he doesn't exist

Or if you really think he's so horrible for the sport send a complaint in, get all like minded people to send a complaint in. I'm sure if enough of you do then he will be banned and everyone can go back to the perfect world of figure skating where no judge is ever biased and all those awful mindless jumping machines can keep on losing and leave the sport as well.

BTW I hope you appreciate the irony in the fact that Sasha only did 2 quads at Nats, far less than she would do normally.

Maybe if she had tried 4 she would have won in which case we could have spent our time bitching about her lack of artistry and crap skating skills. Riveting stuff!

The so what is that he is compromising Trusova through his saltiness. If he throws out accusations without basis it can fall back on her, and be counterproductive to what he’s aiming to achieve... which is not fair to her.

If it was an ongoing trend he might have more of a case but in a subjective sport he can’t really make a case for cheating when his own skater is given over 70 PCS and given GOE like candy too.

I know Plushenko is real pressed that Anna is so far ahead of Sasha but Anna does everything with greater quality of execution and better artistry so the gap should be at least 10 points for clean skates from both with that content.

He can complain about it but until he acknowledges that Trusova has a ways to go in a couple ways and only relies on technical output, she won’t close the gap with only 2 quads.

 

[anonymoose_au]

The so what is that he is compromising Trusova through his saltiness.

So complain! Petition the ISU, write to the sponsors of the Academy and tell them to withdraw their support!

Clearly Plushenko has nothing to offer as a coach, he's an embarrassment and a joke. He's ruining figure skating for everyone, and he must be stopped.

I'm half tempted to do it myself just to shut all you people up. It's unbearable.

she won’t close the gap with only 2 quads.

And if she does 4 quads and wins I don't want to hear a damn word about how beautiful, brave Anna and brilliant balletic Kamila were robbed by the soulless, robot Sasha.

 

[Arbitrary]

So complain! Petition the ISU, write to the sponsors of the Academy and tell them to withdraw their support!

Clearly Plushenko has nothing to offer as a coach, he's an embarrassment and a joke. He's ruining figure skating for everyone, and he must be stopped.

I'm half tempted to do it myself just to shut all you people up. It's unbearable.


And if she does 4 quads and wins I don't want to hear a damn word about how beautiful, brave Anna and brilliant balletic Kamila were robbed by the soulless, robot Sasha.

Four/Five quads Trusova unlikely wins vs a single quad competitor at any Major. No Board would dare to sign the protocol. Allowing her to win a Major means a new Space Race to begin.
She can win of quadless ladies only and even that is not guaranteed. All of them should fall at least once.

Higher Sasha raises her BV, lower GOE/PCS she receives regardless of her actual skating. It';s just the ISU and FFKKR want to keep convenient balance.
I'm starting to believe ISU'd already thought about a negative PCS chart, specially created for Sasha. Otherwise, what could they do against BV above 110?

P.S. Toyota doesn't want to produce cars with 50% of the current fuel consumption. Better to decrease it 1% a year. Much more profit to be.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Four/Five quads Trusova unlikely wins vs a single quad competitor at any Major. No Board would dare to sign the protocol. Allowing her to win a Major means a new Space Race to begin.
She can win of quadless ladies only and even that is not guaranteed. All of them should fall at least once.

Higher Sasha raises her BV, lower GOE/PCS she receives regardless of her actual skating. It';s just the ISU and FFKKR want to keep convenient balance.
I'm starting to believe ISU'd already thought about a negative PCS chart, specially created for Sasha. Otherwise, what could they do against BV above 110?

P.S. Toyota doesn't want to produce cars with 50% of the current fuel consumption. Better to decrease it 1% a year. Much more profit to be.

I don’t follow, Sasha has been getting good GOE. And very solid PCS. With a fall at Skate Canada in 2019, she got 67 PCS. This year with 4 falls she still got 66 PCS. Most of the field is struggling to get into the mid-60s.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I don’t follow, Sasha has been getting good GOE. And very solid PCS. With a fall at Skate Canada in 2019, she got 67 PCS. This year with 4 falls she still got 66 PCS. Most of the field is struggling to get into the mid-60s.

But she doesn't deserve it right? Because she's just a jumping machine.

And where do you get off writing that Plushenko only gave 50% effort in Vancouver? I thought he was a hack without an artistic bone his body, those crap programs were the best he could come up with.

Or are you holding him to an impossible standard. I didn't see Patrick Chan or Evan attempting quads. Shame too since they're so damn easy.

 

[Alex65]

And two judges put Sasha's FS in the 2nd place while Kamila's FS was much better. Weren't they 'charged' by Plushenko after the SP?

This is your subjective opinion. It is not certain a priori. Technically, Sasha is stronger than Camila. Kamila's skating skills are no better than the Sasha's. Camila has superb spins, for which she earns well-deserved GOEs. The ability to put her leg behind her head does not at all make Camila the queen of the PCS.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

But she doesn't deserve it right? Because she's just a jumping machine.

And where do you get off writing that Plushenko only gave 50% effort in Vancouver? I thought he was a hack without an artistic bone his body, those crap programs were the best he could come up with.

Or are you holding him to an impossible standard. I didn't see Patrick Chan or Evan attempting quads. Shame too since they're so damn easy.

No, she doesn't deserve it because her projection/extension/expression all need work. Things still look mechanical compared to Anna/Kamila.

When did I say Plushenko gave 50% effort in Vancouver? He obviously gave a lot of effort, however, he needed better programs and his jumps were off in his FS which compromised their GOE, and he left out a double loop. And that's when overall skating and minor details actually added up and cost him the gold. Plushenko essentially figured if he stayed on his feet, being the only one with a consisted quad/3A, he would win (he was even fist pumping before the results came up). He probably didn't think a lowly double loop or lack of transitions could cost him - who cares about them compared to the quad! He also lost the GPF to Sandhu by leaving out a 3S (again because he landed everything else and was oblivious to the Zayak, which was a bad rule but still the rules at the time everyone had to compete under).

He's a legendary figure skater, and arguably the most technically consistent ever, but other than Yagudin, he didn't have a ton of worthy contemporaries who were technically consistent enough to challenge him and push him to work on the other aspects of his skating. It's why his well-deserved OGM in 2006 were still probably his worst programs, but it was a runaway because the other guys could barely do consistent triple axels and were just fighting for silver/bronze compared to a guy with a consistent quad and triple axel. Unfortunately, for Trusova, there are skaters who can push her technically, so it's costing her wins... but fortunately for Trusova that will hopefully push her to improve other aspects of her skating.

If the state of affairs was that only Trusova could do quads,, I do not believe that Trusova (under Plushenko) would not reach her potential because he would train her to a point where all she needs to do is land the jumps because (like he was) she'd be technically so far ahead that the program/artistry/etc. didn't have as much bearing, and a win was certain if nobody else had your difficulty, which you yourself did cleanly. There are things Trusova can work on, not just her edge call but her levels. And the PCS components earlier.

Look, I'm all for technical difficulty giving a skater a competitive advantage. Trusova deserved to win against technically inferior international skaters who had nicer programs/artistry, because I thought her technical edge with the quads deserved gold over skaters who can't do quads, the same way if Plushenko did quads and the other guys in the field couldn't even go clean with just triple axels, he deserved to beat them. But Anna not only did more program content (higher BV), but she's executing it better, and with better artistry. So if both go clean, Anna gets the gold. Contrary to what you believe, if Trusova adds 2 more quads, get better execution and that manages to close the gap, I absolutely think her win would be legitimate and wouldn't just dismiss her as a jumping bean.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

This is your subjective opinion. It is not certain a priori. Technically, Sasha is stronger than Camila. Kamila's skating skills are no better than the Sasha's. Camila has superb spins, for which she earns well-deserved GOEs. The ability to put her leg behind her head does not at all make Camila the queen of the PCS.

Well, the ability to do Plushenko's signature hip thrusts (in a Romeo and Juliet program ) doesn't make Trusova the queen of PCS either.

I actually think Kamila's skating skills are, at worst, and arguably better than Sasha's. She hits her edges and has a greater variety of transitions (although sometimes the program does get a bit "busy").

I rewatched the programs again back to back, and I noticed that Sasha does a lot of stroking around and doesn't get into her knees as much. Valieva is still rough around the edges, but skates with a lot of speed and completes her movements.

Anna's skating skills are very evident, even from the very beginning where she shows really good blade control in that intro choreo. Her overall stroking is smoother than either of the other too.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Re: skating skills:
Compare the variety, depth of edges, ice coverage, speed (throughout), and control in their step sequences:

Trusova: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_KhxKAhRQE#t=2h22m55s

Valieva: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_KhxKAhRQE#t=2h31m10s

Shcherbackova: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_KhxKAhRQE#t=2h39m40s

TBH, I actually think Valieva had the best one of all of them - some deep edge work, multi-directional turns, and super challenging, and she maintains the speed throughout. It is a bit mechanical in the upper body, but she is paying attention to completing the edges on her turns and sinking into her knees.

Anna had the best expression (the other two were a bit wild) but not every turn was foot perfect, I did appreciate the circular part in the middle of the ice was done clockwise which is less conventional and harder to execute in that direction.

Sasha had a lot of energy at the start but it slowed down and she really needs to work on deepening her edges, and her extension (pointing her foot and bending her knees). I'm seeing it in her stroking too - it's not sweeping crossovers that gain speed it's fast quick ones.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Re: skating skills:
Compare the variety, depth of edges, ice coverage, speed (throughout), and control in their step sequences:

Trusova: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_KhxKAhRQE#t=2h22m55s

Valieva: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_KhxKAhRQE#t=2h31m10s

Shcherbackova: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_KhxKAhRQE#t=2h39m40s

TBH, I actually think Valieva had the best one of all of them - some deep edge work, multi-directional turns, and super challenging, and she maintains the speed throughout. It is a bit mechanical in the upper body, but she is paying attention to completing the edges on her turns and sinking into her knees.

Anna had the best expression (the other two were a bit wild) but not every turn was foot perfect, I did appreciate the circular part in the middle of the ice was done clockwise which is less conventional and harder to execute in that direction.

Sasha had a lot of energy at the start but it slowed down and she really needs to work on deepening her edges, and her extension (pointing her foot and bending her knees). I'm seeing it in her stroking too - it's not sweeping crossovers that gain speed it's fast quick ones.

I can see your point regarding the strengths/weaknesses of each of the three skaters. Anna definitely has the edge with upper body and expression but less so with the feet; Sasha with the power but still needing improvement in efficiency and polish; and Kamila having clean footwork but a less expressive upper body.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see which one of them will become the Sashannamila hybrid skater with clean turns, speed, power and musical arms

Incidentally while they all have decent kneebend to a certain extent (Kamila a bit better than the other two), I feel like they could still improve in that area, compared to some Japanese or Canadian skaters (e.g. Satoko Miyahara or Roman Sadovsky as randomly picked examples). I'm not even sure if 'kneebend' is a somewhat misleading term - it's more like knee+ankle+hip bend. It seems to be more of hip>knee>ankle with Kamila compared to e.g. Daria Usacheva (same coaches, similar age). It might have something to do with how the boot fits on her foot - it seems especially large and tied tight at the ankle compared to how I've seen others wearing Edea Piano.

 

[Idiote]

Sashannamila sounds like the perfect name for some Eastern-themed heroic fantasy saga x) I love it.
(and yes that was all I had to say on this topic )

 

[Alex65]

Re: skating skills:
Compare the variety, depth of edges, ice coverage, speed (throughout), and control in their step sequences:

Trusova: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_KhxKAhRQE#t=2h22m55s

Valieva: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_KhxKAhRQE#t=2h31m10s

Shcherbackova: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_KhxKAhRQE#t=2h39m40s

TBH, I actually think Valieva had the best one of all of them - some deep edge work, multi-directional turns, and super challenging, and she maintains the speed throughout. It is a bit mechanical in the upper body, but she is paying attention to completing the edges on her turns and sinking into her knees.

Anna had the best expression (the other two were a bit wild) but not every turn was foot perfect, I did appreciate the circular part in the middle of the ice was done clockwise which is less conventional and harder to execute in that direction.

Sasha had a lot of energy at the start but it slowed down and she really needs to work on deepening her edges, and her extension (pointing her foot and bending her knees). I'm seeing it in her stroking too - it's not sweeping crossovers that gain speed it's fast quick ones.

Sorry, but I cannot assess your statements as objective and impartial. Sorry, no way.
Let me try to put my thoughts in order.
Camila: She's definitely fast. Her plastic movements are pleasant and expressive. The number of movements per unit of time is very large. This is a plus for her. Now, if all these movements had a connection with music and served to create an image and its interpretation, I would applaud her while standing. Unfortunately, there is practically no connection. I can offer you an experiment. "Balero" is easy to remember. The tempo of the music does not change. Now try turning off the sound and watching Camila without sound, starting from any arbitrary moment in the program. I haven't been able to find a connection with music in my head in most of my attempts.
Anna: she expresses music with the movements of her hands, body. Face. But it's better not to look at your feet. But here it was about skating skills in the first place. You have expressed admiration for her initial movements. Now take a look at her legs and skates at this moment. Except for the second loop, it has a flat rib everywhere. I will say that I appreciated your words that not all of Anna's steps in the step sequence were perfect here. Very diplomatically said, considering Anna SS's assessment of 9.75. There was no control in the step sequence, and there were a few "imperfect" steps. But this is all nonsense. Nobody paid attention. Loose knees and a lot of jumps are not worth remembering at all.
Sasha: I can hardly be impartial. Therefore, I agree with you on everything. I note that she does not claim to be the Queen of the PCS here. I just don't see this difference in skating, which is in the competition protocols. 10 points for two programs is a very big difference. She just isn't here.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Contrary to what you believe, if Trusova adds 2 more quads, get better execution and that manages to close the gap, I absolutely think her win would be legitimate and wouldn't just dismiss her as a jumping bean.

No you've just proved my point, you're asking for Sasha to not only do the hardest jumps and twice as many you're also expecting her to get better execution? How do you expect her to do that? And why should she have to? Anna gets more GOE for her quad Lutz than Sasha despite her wrong edge. But if Sasha tried a quad flip with the wrong edge she'd be hit with minus GOE, so now it only counts for half a jump, so she probably needs 3 more quads.

What really gets to me on this board is the feeling I constantly get that there's skaters you "have" to love to be a "proper" fan. Last season it was Aliona, now it's Kamila and you can't make your real feelings known about these "special" skaters. God forbid you say anything slightly negative about them.

Meanwhile, Sasha gets torn to pieces (how fitting!) for being a jumping machine, but then not doing enough jumps. For having no artistry, but mocked for trying something like Love Story.

And woe to you if Plushenko is your favourite skater, you should have some taste and love Daisuke or Stephane or anyone else. It makes me feel like an idiot and a loser.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

No you've just proved my point, you're asking for Sasha to not only do the hardest jumps and twice as many you're also expecting her to get better execution? How do you expect her to do that? And why should she have to? Anna gets more GOE for her quad Lutz than Sasha despite her wrong edge. But if Sasha tried a quad flip with the wrong edge she'd be hit with minus GOE, so now it only counts for half a jump, so she probably needs 3 more quads.

What really gets to me on this board is the feeling I constantly get that there's skaters you "have" to love to be a "proper" fan. Last season it was Aliona, now it's Kamila and you can't make your real feelings known about these "special" skaters. God forbid you say anything slightly negative about them.

Meanwhile, Sasha gets torn to pieces (how fitting!) for being a jumping machine, but then not doing enough jumps. For having no artistry, but mocked for trying something like Love Story.

And woe to you if Plushenko is your favourite skater, you should have some taste and love Daisuke or Stephane or anyone else. It makes me feel like an idiot and a loser.

Sorry, my intent isn't to make you feel that way. People are allowed to like or dislike whichever skaters they like and shouldn't feel bad about it. But to me, when people have their faves, they think their fave can do no wrong... so when people criticize them, they'll naturally defend their fave, come hell or high water. It takes a lot to admit when maybe your fave is out of line. Chan is one of my faves and I didn't condone when he's made off colour remarks just because I like him as a skater. Another example is Yagudin, who is a wonderful skater, but the man off the ice has said appalling things. A fan doesn't have to go all in on defending their fave, but if they do, then they need to be prepared for criticism - and need to be prepared for the very likely possibility that the judges won't fan over them to the same extent that they do.

I personally am not invested in any particular skater and when they are overly favourably judged or underscored I call it as I see it, on a case by case basis. e.g. I think Chan deserved 2012 Worlds, but shouldn't have won 2013 Worlds. Kostner is one of my all-time faves but the judges handed her a bronze at 2014 Worlds that should have gone to Pogorilaya. But I also think she deserved to win competitions like Rostelecom 2013 and, yes, the 2014 Olympics. I'm a big fan of Shoma Uno's skating, but think it's deplorable his SP PCS at Japanese Nationals, etc.

If you see posts I've made about her this forum, you will see I'm a huge fan of Trusova, but I don't think her partnership with Plushenko will help her catch up to Anna/Kamila for reasons stated. And no matter how good she is or isn't, I do not condone Plushenko's baseless remarks.

I said Trusova needs to step up her execution on her jumps, or add more quads - ideally both. She needs more flow and extension on the landings for higher GOE. Valieva needs to work on her posture (she's a bit hunchy for me). Shcherbackova is pretty much close to full package in my opinion. Some of her jumps are a bit off kilter, and sometimes her spins lose their centring but she's got good vehicles as programs. She's not Kostornaia level, but she's maxing out what she's capable of. Trusova still has room for improvement that she's capable of and would be better off making improvements to earn higher marks instead of hoping that Plu stirring the pot will somehow benefit her.