2021 US Nationals: Men's FS - Thoughts and Observations

[el henry]

Just in general I think this scoring system is a bust. You often have 4 point GOE spreads that make no sense, the same elements receiving both positive and negative GOEs, there is no possible way to distinguish what deserves a 9.25 from a 9.5, etc.
Also, while I do think Jason needs to be justly rewarded for his PCS, I don't think he needs to beat skaters with multiple well executed quads. It is first and foremost a sport. I just really wish professional skating was still a viable career in the US, if only for his sake.

Welcome to Goldenskate, post long and post often!

I do need to point out however, that for many of us, the sport of figure skating is not just revolutions in the air. Sport is spins (so so so hard), bladework, transitions, all athletic and deserving of respect as part of this sport we follow.

The quadsters deserve respect for what they do, and they get plenty of points for what they do, but IMO they do not deserve to automatically outscore someone with athletic gifts in other areas, such as Jason.

 

[MarkinBerkeley]

Agreed and not just domestically. Jason regularly overscores skaters internationally with a lot more quads than he has. It is simply because every element he does (generally) is +5 and choreographically he is on another level. So, his fate is in his hands. If he can be clean next year, he should go the Olympics.

Agree. And he can leave out the quad if he's not landing it consistently. Only would get him 5-6 extra points at best.

 

[MarkinBerkeley]

I generally like the current scoring system, but there are a few refinements that should be made:

1. We need more cameras to catch under rotations. I think everybody can agree on this.
2. Base value of some of the elements perhaps needs to be reevaluated.
3. Falls should be penalized at -2 after the first one.
4. Skating skills should probably max out at 9.0 with a fall.
5. Ladies PCS should max out at 100 just like the men, and they should be allowed to do quads in the short program.
6. We maybe need to go back to +3 -3 with a +3 getting you a 50% bonus.

 

[Mathman]

I was talking about CoP with +3 GOEs VS SoV +5 GOEs.

It is not obvious which type of skater benefits and which is disadvantaged. In the -3 to +3 system, +3 really meant three extra points. That's how Yuna Kim was able to win the 2010 Olympics by such a big margin.

In the present system, +5 means ... ? On a quad Lutz, +5 means 5.5 extra points. On a triple Salchow +5 means 2.15 extra points. A skater cannot count on racking up extra GOE by doing easier jumps, but doing them well. Even a +2 on a quad Lutz (2.2 extra points) beats a +5 on a triple Salchow.

 

[Mathman]

I generally like the current scoring system, but there are a few refinements that should be made:

1. We need more cameras to catch under rotations. I think everybody can agree on this.
2. Base value of some of the elements perhaps needs to be reevaluated.
3. Falls should be penalized at -2 after the first one.
4. Skating skills should probably max out at 9.0 with a fall.
5. Ladies PCS should max out at 100 just like the men, and they should be allowed to do quads in the short program.
6. We maybe need to go back to +3 -3 with a +3 getting you a 50% bonus.

The ISU is listening. All of these proposals are continually under consideration by the Powers that Be. Base values are adjusted every year or two. Multiple falls are penalyzed more severely. There are rules about maximum PCS with falls and other errors. In the present -5 to +5 GOE, +5 does mean a 50% bonus.

 

[Mathman]

I don't necessarily have a problem with this, so long as both judges are consistent for all skaters.

In a perfect world, there would be complete uniformity.

I am not completely convinced that the world would be more perfect if the judges were always in better agreement. That is the whole point of having judges -- they render their judgments about the quality of the skating. If one judge thinks that, taking into account the plusses and minuses, an element deserves a -1 GOE, and another thinks, no, that was great = +4, I am not alarmed. There are nine jumdges to provide an overall consensus on the panel.

 

[moonvine]

Are you talking about 6.0 or IJS?

under 6.0 Jason probably would have thrived, and he may have scored higher under the previous IJS as well.

to my mind, this current system is balanced *against* skaters like Jason. It rewards the extra revolution in the air to a greater degree than elements which are just as difficult in a different way, blade work, centered fast spins (exceedingly difficult to do) and of course performance and interpretative skills.

if all that was needed to win was to put the most revolutions in the air, we could eliminate music, transitions, spins, footwork and every other element of figure skating.

To me the current system favors the revolutions. But thank God not completely, at least for me, so that we still have the sport of figure skating and not ice jumping

If it’s balanced against someone it isn’t balanced.

 

[TontoK]

I am not completely convinced that the world would be more perfect if the judges were always in better agreement. That is the whole point of having judges -- they render their judgments about the quality of the skating. If one judge thinks that, taking into account the plusses and minuses, an element deserves a -1 GOE, and another thinks, no, that was great = +4, I am not alarmed. There are nine jumdges to provide an overall consensus on the panel.

I guess my point is this... let's take it international.

Say John, an international judge from Johnland, scores the Johnland skaters three GOE points higher in all spins than the other judges award.

That's not necessarily a problem if he tends to "overscore" spins across the board for all skaters.

If he scores Johnland's skaters higher, but not the other skaters... that's an indicator that there may be a problem.

 

[readernick]

Zhou received marks for the most part close to 8.75, though imo, he should have been capped at 8.75, and, yes, I love Zhou to bits. Chen had only made one visible error, his first near fall, so there is no question there.

Paniot PCS were below 7 (!) and he didn’t skate with obvious goal of only making his jumping passes, like, say Ignatov did during his nationals FS. That would have been a skate where I wouldn’t have questioned marks on components. But when visually the skates are close, but there is so much difference in PCS, it’s just weird

First, obviously he is not going to be favored because he can't compete internationally. Second his SS really need work. SS are that magical component that make judges go crazy for Alena K., Kaori S, and Jason B. You see it across domestic and international competitions. And respectfully, Jason and Ivan are not close in terms of skating skills, transitions, and musicality. Many skaters get PCS they don't deserve because of their high TES, but if you look at Jason's skating and you look at the manual for how PCS should be rewarded he is checking all the boxes. Was he overscored? Yes, but not compared to the other top 3.

 

[Mathman]

...American fans do not like newcomers, they want someone to skate for many years...

Make new friends, and keep the old.
One is silver and the other gold.

 

[Olympic]

Chen - So steadfast! I loved the attack despite the step-out and that he went for 5 quads, including the 4T-1L-3F and the 4T-3T in the second half. I love Philip Glass and I think he does music justice.

Zhou - Major improvement all around, especially on the non-jump elements and transitions. His spins are actually watchable! He probably should switch up the layout and just do a 2nd 4Z as the 2nd pass when he's got the energy, then do just a 3F later on. I never recalled that he had a decent 4F or a 4T, but he did them in 2018. I hope he can bring one back or maybe repeat the 4S for more points in the future.

Brown - He improves constantly which doesn't seem possible! I suppose the quad is just not mean to be, so I hope he nails the 3A always and forever. I love SOTA.

Paniot - While he needs to work on speed and performance, it was a breathe of fresh air watching him hit those quads. I can't wait to see him develop with Todd Eldredge and compete for team USA. I think the Ukraine will release him this year?

Naumov - Great performance. He has all the basics and is exactly where he should be at this stage. I hope he graduates to a quad soon. The size of the jumps suggest he could do it.

Ma - Nice 4T. I loved his K&C reaction and I understand it was a PB, but I really wish he would concentrate (or whatever it is that derails him) during the performance because he leaves a lot of points on the table on his spins and FW. He needs an Arutunian lecture after performances like that, then a pat on the back ..

Hiwatashi - So up and down with all those unforced errors. Props to him for standing up on the 4Z then nailing the 4T-3T, but then stepping out on the 3A. UGH. He also needs to slow down and commit to the performance because as JW said, he's like a blur on the ice

Pulkinen - Loaded with potential but that was disastrous. His feet were never underneath him at any point. I hope he gets it together because he is a talent.

 

[Skater Boy]

There is no perfect system. It seems to me that a gorgeous skater can't really gain ground on say a fairly clean nathan though artistically Jason is far superior. The problem is if Nathan is clean he will rack up big points pc wise. The pcs aren't distinguished as much or like the jumps One can argue like a quad lutz is worth like six more points than say a triple toe so should interrpretatin or skating skills have that kidn ofpoint differentiation but it would be shocking to find nathan even a point behind for say transitions or interpretation.

The ISU is listening. All of these proposals are continually under consideration by the Powers that Be. Base values are adjusted every year or two. Multiple falls are penalyzed more severely. There are rules about maximum PCS with falls and other errors. In the present -5 to +5 GOE, +5 does mean a 50% bonus.

 

[TontoK]

Make new friends, and keep the old.
One is silver and the other gold.

Also for @lariko

I'm a different kind of fan. I love the sport. I can appreciate a skater for a long time. I can also lose interest quickly.

I've said it before: None of these people are family.

It makes me very amenable to new skaters and old skaters who get their acts together, but they shouldn't get too comfortable if they don't continue to impress and entertain me.

 

[TontoK]

There is no perfect system. It seems to me that a gorgeous skater can't really gain ground on say a fairly clean nathan though artistically Jason is far superior. The problem is if Nathan is clean he will rack up big points pc wise. The pcs aren't distinguished as much or like the jumps One can argue like a quad lutz is worth like six more points than say a triple toe so should interrpretatin or skating skills have that kidn ofpoint differentiation but it would be shocking to find nathan even a point behind for say transitions or interpretation.

A gorgeous skater can certainly gain ground on Nathan, or anyone else for that matter. It's not a mystery where the big points are to be gained.

John Curry and Toller Cranston were artistic geniuses, but both were also top-flight technical athletes. Their jump content was roughly on par with the highest standards of their era.

 

[el henry]

A gorgeous skater can certainly gain ground on Nathan, or anyone else for that matter. It's not a mystery where the big points are to be gained.

John Curry and Toller Cranston were artistic geniuses, but both were also top-flight technical athletes. Their jump content was roughly on par with the highest standards of their era.

Can I just make one point for the youngsters (which I know you already know)

Toller, at least. as I well know was technically deficient by the standards of his day. Because those standards included compulsory figures, and those were the largest and most important of the technical standards. And Toller never ever mastered school figures. He did master the mandatory single axel of the SP, however.

and from Toller himself:

Has the men's event become too technical, too focused on triples and quads
Yes. There has to be a sense of refinement, because in the big picture, figure skating should be — but isn’t — a mixture of art and sport. Kurt Browning doing Bogey at the 1993 world championships. That’s what it’s supposed to be. That was the perfect combination, the perfect equation.

Maclean's archives: An interview with Toller Cranston

Known for putting guests on the spot by asking them to summarize their lives in 30 seconds, Cranston once told Maclean's how he would sum up his own.

www.macleans.ca

 

[fallingsk8er]

The system is fine as is. Nathan is a great skater with world class artistry and components. He just brings something different that cannot easily be compared to old school traditional skaters. With 2 world championship titles, he’s definitely established himself as the worlds best and has set the standard for style and strength in the sport. I’m so glad that the sport has evolved to include different styles of skating like his. Very refreshing.

 

[TontoK]

Can I just make one point for the youngsters (which I know you already know)

Toller, at least. as I well know was technically deficient by the standards of his day. Because those standards included compulsory figures, and those were the largest and most important of the technical standards. And Toller never ever mastered school figures. He did master the mandatory single axel of the SP, however.

(snip)

Not so deficient that he didn't win a World and Olympic medal, although I agree he wasn't the best school figures skater.

A lot of people don't realize that in 1976 he defeated Curry and everyone else to win the short program - which I think gives him some street cred in terms of his technical proficiency.

 

[Blades of Passion]

That is the whole point of having judges -- they render their judgments about the quality of the skating. If one judge thinks that, taking into account the plusses and minuses, an element deserves a -1 GOE, and another thinks, no, that was great = +4, I am not alarmed. There are nine judges to provide an overall consensus on the panel.

I think it's a massive problem if one judge believes an element is -1 GOE and another thinks it's +4. The disparity of that gap is like looking at two completely different elements. It shouldn't be possible for this to exist within the realm of highly educated, objective judges and a good scoring system. If you watch diving competitions there is absolutely never that wide of a gap in opinion.

 

[Tahuu]

There is no perfect system. It seems to me that a gorgeous skater can't really gain ground on say a fairly clean nathan though artistically Jason is far superior. The problem is if Nathan is clean he will rack up big points pc wise. The pcs aren't distinguished as much or like the jumps One can argue like a quad lutz is worth like six more points than say a triple toe so should interrpretatin or skating skills have that kidn ofpoint differentiation but it would be shocking to find nathan even a point behind for say transitions or interpretation.

I don't have much interest in comparing Nathan's and Jason's PCS, especially national PCS, which are used to hold up skaters. If by "artistically" you mean PCS, then that's a myth. Internationally, these are the PCS facts in this Olympic cycle:

PCS Ranking
1​	Yuzuru Hanyu	96.40​
2​	Nathan Chen	95.78​
3​	Javier Fernandez	94.20​
4​	Shoma Uno	92.88​
5​	Jason Brown	92.58​
6​	Mikhail Kolyada	91.50​
7​	Kevin Aymoz	89.80​
8​	Keegan Messing	88.34​
9​	Alex Samarin	88.24​
10​	Michal Brezina	87.34​
Mean PCS Ranking
1​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.68​
2​	Nathan Chen	9.57​
3​	Javier Fernandez	9.40​
4​	Shoma Uno	9.28​
5​	Mikhail Kolyada	9.26​
6​	Jason Brown	9.24​
7​	Kevin Aymoz	8.87​
8​	Keegan Messing	8.92​
9​	Alex Samarin	8.83​
10​	Michal Brezina	8.76​
Top 10 PCS
1​	Yuzuru Hanyu	96.40​
2​	Yuzuru Hanyu	95.84​
3​	Nathan Chen	95.78​
4​	Nathan Chen	94.78​
5​	Javier Fernandez	94.20​
6​	Yuzuru Hanyu	94.14​
7​	Nathan Chen	94.00​
8​	Yuzuru Hanyu	93.64​
9​	Shoma Uno	92.88​
10​	Nathan Chen	92.58​
10​	Jason Brown	92.58​
Top 10 Mean PCS
1​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.68​
2​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.64​
2​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.64​
4​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.63​
4​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.63​
6​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.58​
7​	Nathan Chen	9.57​
8​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.53​
9​	Nathan Chen	9.47​
10​	Nathan Chen	9.44​
10​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.44​

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I don't have much interest in comparing Nathan's and Jason's PCS, especially national PCS, which are used to hold up skaters. If by "artistically" you mean PCS, then that's a myth. Internationally, these are the PCS facts in this Olympic cycle:

PCS Ranking
1​	Yuzuru Hanyu	96.40​
2​	Nathan Chen	95.78​
3​	Javier Fernandez	94.20​
4​	Shoma Uno	92.88​
5​	Jason Brown	92.58​
6​	Mikhail Kolyada	91.50​
7​	Kevin Aymoz	89.80​
8​	Keegan Messing	88.34​
9​	Alex Samarin	88.24​
10​	Michal Brezina	87.34​
Mean PCS Ranking
1​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.68​
2​	Nathan Chen	9.57​
3​	Javier Fernandez	9.40​
4​	Shoma Uno	9.28​
5​	Mikhail Kolyada	9.26​
6​	Jason Brown	9.24​
7​	Kevin Aymoz	8.87​
8​	Keegan Messing	8.92​
9​	Alex Samarin	8.83​
10​	Michal Brezina	8.76​
Top 10 PCS
1​	Yuzuru Hanyu	96.40​
2​	Yuzuru Hanyu	95.84​
3​	Nathan Chen	95.78​
4​	Nathan Chen	94.78​
5​	Javier Fernandez	94.20​
6​	Yuzuru Hanyu	94.14​
7​	Nathan Chen	94.00​
8​	Yuzuru Hanyu	93.64​
9​	Shoma Uno	92.88​
10​	Nathan Chen	92.58​
10​	Jason Brown	92.58​
Top 10 Mean PCS
1​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.68​
2​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.64​
2​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.64​
4​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.63​
4​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.63​
6​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.58​
7​	Nathan Chen	9.57​
8​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.53​
9​	Nathan Chen	9.47​
10​	Nathan Chen	9.44​
10​	Yuzuru Hanyu	9.44​

Remember though during Olympic season Jason was falling quite a lot and having struggles with jump consistency so this bought his average PCS down a lot (same with Kolyada, and Javi)