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- May 17, 2007
Caroline's jumps-slow mo <3
- Thread starter carolinefan177
- Start date
Hey thanks carolinefan for the link, and michiruwater for making the video!
To me, all of the jumps looked just around 1/4 rotation short, aside from the 3S and the 3T in the 3/3. I was going to say, well, if the technical panel that night felt like being especially tough and call all borderline cases <, then well, tough luck.
Then I started watching Kimmie's LP, and paused at the jumps, and it struck me that all her non-downgraded jumps are also just around 1/4 rotation short. Kimmie is known for her height and flow on her jumps, and all this is true, but she doesn't rotate as quickly in the air. I don't have the time to look at all the other ladies' skaters in this competition and slow-mo all their downgraded and ratified triples.
But I think it would be great if there was a side-by-side comparison of triples that were and weren't downgraded, especially cases that were both borderline, or even mis-called. I think a compilation of such videos would be 1) very educational for the viewers, and 2) help ISU improve its downgrading policy.
To me, all of the jumps looked just around 1/4 rotation short, aside from the 3S and the 3T in the 3/3. I was going to say, well, if the technical panel that night felt like being especially tough and call all borderline cases <, then well, tough luck.
Then I started watching Kimmie's LP, and paused at the jumps, and it struck me that all her non-downgraded jumps are also just around 1/4 rotation short. Kimmie is known for her height and flow on her jumps, and all this is true, but she doesn't rotate as quickly in the air. I don't have the time to look at all the other ladies' skaters in this competition and slow-mo all their downgraded and ratified triples.
But I think it would be great if there was a side-by-side comparison of triples that were and weren't downgraded, especially cases that were both borderline, or even mis-called. I think a compilation of such videos would be 1) very educational for the viewers, and 2) help ISU improve its downgrading policy.
Someone at Skatefans just referred me to this article:
http://www.latimes.com/sports/print...9,1,4217633.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-sports
http://www.latimes.com/sports/print...9,1,4217633.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-sports
I've made screenshots of her takes off:
http://gallery.ru/watch?p=Hs5-u777
http://gallery.ru/watch?p=Hs5-u777
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- Jun 21, 2003
What are we supposed to be looking for in these shots? Take-off edges? Pre-rotation?
I wonder if the ISU plans to bear down on underrotations early in the season, then lighten up as Worlds approaches. Sort of like hockey or basketball, were they tend to call the game closely in the regular season, but come playoff time they "let the men play."
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I took a second look and noticed her head rotated 3 turns in the air. I'm not sure that tells anything, but isn't it unusual to have the head and feet out of sync? She must have landed some of those jumps properly.
Joe
Joe
That's what I always look for when I count rotations. Now I'm starting to wonder if that's the wrong approach.
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I took a good look at the youtube compilation mentioned above -- and noticed something very strange in Caroline's jump technique that I hadn't seen before examining the take-offs in slow motion...
That funny free leg kick of hers -- has more of a purpose than just a sometimes awkward movement. Watch the flip jump especially in slow motion - and you will see that Caroline's right leg kicks up after the three turn while her right foot twists counterclockwise. When she actually picks to vault the jump - her right foot is facing a good half-turn forward into the jump - similar to a toe-axel take-off and her left foot is on a strong backward inside edge. The force of torquing the left leg into the right backspin position is interesting.
It is almost as if she is cutting off half a rotation in the jump by beginning the vaulting facing forward.
The other jumps in slow motion, even the loop - seem to have that forward facing foot motion as she vaults into her jumps.
Anyone else notice this?
Just for fun - I watched another youtube video on the triple jump where two skaters execute the triple flip side by side. Neither one of them twisted their picking foot in the same manner. In fact, it was very clear that both skaters vaulted back from a clean back pick. One of the skaters was Irina Slutskia (sp).
That funny free leg kick of hers -- has more of a purpose than just a sometimes awkward movement. Watch the flip jump especially in slow motion - and you will see that Caroline's right leg kicks up after the three turn while her right foot twists counterclockwise. When she actually picks to vault the jump - her right foot is facing a good half-turn forward into the jump - similar to a toe-axel take-off and her left foot is on a strong backward inside edge. The force of torquing the left leg into the right backspin position is interesting.
It is almost as if she is cutting off half a rotation in the jump by beginning the vaulting facing forward.
The other jumps in slow motion, even the loop - seem to have that forward facing foot motion as she vaults into her jumps.
Anyone else notice this?
Just for fun - I watched another youtube video on the triple jump where two skaters execute the triple flip side by side. Neither one of them twisted their picking foot in the same manner. In fact, it was very clear that both skaters vaulted back from a clean back pick. One of the skaters was Irina Slutskia (sp).
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You're right, redhotcoach. I noticed it too, she pre-rotates the jump and launches facing forward.
I would suggest looking at the blade rather than the head - skaters who cheat their jumps won't land them in the same angle they started off too and quickly move their skate the remaining bit of rotation while on the ice. Also, look at the take off - like redhotcoach said, Zhang is going into the jump facing forward.
I would suggest looking at the blade rather than the head - skaters who cheat their jumps won't land them in the same angle they started off too and quickly move their skate the remaining bit of rotation while on the ice. Also, look at the take off - like redhotcoach said, Zhang is going into the jump facing forward.
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- Jun 22, 2007
I think judges were way too hard on Caroline. Yes, she has some issues with her jumps but some of the downgrades are just too far-fetched.(I somehow see her 3loop is rightfully DGed, but her first 3Flip and second 3lutz were clean, i mean more than 2.75 rotations)
Maybe it's the rite of passage, first year as a senior, and if you look on the bright side, Caroline will go back and try to fix her jumps altogether...tough but has to be done sonner than later.
Now I'm thinking whether it is going to be a selective case or not.
Interesting:think:...we'll see at Skate Canada.
Maybe it's the rite of passage, first year as a senior, and if you look on the bright side, Caroline will go back and try to fix her jumps altogether...tough but has to be done sonner than later.
Now I'm thinking whether it is going to be a selective case or not.
Interesting:think:...we'll see at Skate Canada.
I think that we also consider the possibility, far-fetched as it may seem, that the judges really wanted Caroline to do worse than Kimmie. Why? Because if you take a novice senior skater and score her higher than an experienced senior skater, it creates a scandal.
Imagine the headlines: "Newcomer Zhang outshines veteran skater Meissner on first senior outing."
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- Mar 22, 2004
I can't say I examined it in as much detail as you did, but I did suspect that the mule-kick wasn't there because she thought it looked purty. I can't say I'm at all surprised that she's using it to pre-rotate (ie cheat) her jumps.
This also means (looking ahead) she has no chance in seniors unless
a) the rules on under/pre-rotation are changed
b) enough judges just agree that the rules don't apply to her (see Baiul, Oksana: two-footed landings) or
c) she gets her take-off technique in order and get rotate without the mule-kick (registered trademark).
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Like wrong-edge take offs, pre-ice-rotates, are not considered serious by the judging system. There may be a minus in the GoE but not as severe as a downgrade for doing a full or half circle of a triple on the ice and the other two in the air. A Caller will never announce Downgrade because of an entry.
There are so many pre-rotates in triple combos, yet they get big points anyway.
Just toss in a 2r regardless of how well the entry and landings are. It gets the roar of the crowd.
Joe
There are so many pre-rotates in triple combos, yet they get big points anyway.
Just toss in a 2r regardless of how well the entry and landings are. It gets the roar of the crowd.
Joe
Well, they had no issues with Newcomer Asada beating the reigning world champion, reigning world silver medalist, and the 2004 world champ.
They also had no issues Newcomer Meissner winning the World Champion over Sasha Cohen/ Fumie Suguri.
Nor, did they have issues with Yu-na Kim beating some old names including Meissner.
So why pray tell are they specifically singling out Caroline? Don't get me wrong, maybe the caller was too strict, (totally possible) but still. But don't you think it's rather possible that they don't like Caroline as much as they liked Meissner, Yu-na, and Asada because Caroline's technique truly needs a lot of work?
There is always going to be some element of earn your way up. Yu-na's PCS for example improved remarkably as the judges got to know her. But this didn't hurt her results, not really. She would have won Skate Canada without the free program melt down.
As for not dinging prerotations before, maybe the point Joe, maybe the point is now they are dinging prerotations, personally I think they should.
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- Mar 22, 2004
It was my impression that everybody in promoting skating _loves_ headlines that imply that yet another sad, grizzled 20 year-old veteran has fallen against the unstoppable cuteness of the latest 12-year-old Wunderkind.
That might be because, in the examples you provided above, there would have been a scandal if the newcomer hadn't won the competition. Asada et al. performed such vastly superior technical content that collusion between the judges would've been obvious had the old-timers won. Let's see, Asada with her triple axel and Slutskaya's non-existent triple-triples at that competition (?); Kimmie with her two (!) triple-triples and her perfectly clean program at 2006 Worlds vs Suguri's same-old, same-old and Cohen's multiple splats, and the list goes on. I'll bet that if the newcomers and the oldies had roughly been on a level technical field, the judges would've found a way to give the gold to Slutskaya and Co.
There was a bit of leeway with Caroline because her jumping technique is a little iffy and she had certain jumps that were clearly under-rotated. Five is definitely too high a number, though, and does raise suspicions, at least in my mind.
I mean, as you said, it's all speculation in the end, but I'm just sayin'.
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