2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Shayuki]

This is not at the apex to me:



What you're noticing is her lower body trying to catch up with her upper body, since she twists into the jump. It's the same for Tsurskaya.

Not quite the same. That angle's not great.



When I studied the differences between Trusova's and Shcherbakova's 4Lutz jumps in detail some time back, I noticed Trusova started her rotation far earlier than Shcherbakova. What I was wondering was, why does Trusova manage to actually land the 4Lutz with so much slower a rotation speed than Shcherbakova, when their quad jump heights aren't any different?

In this video it's not even solely about getting to position, Shcherbakova takes some time even after she gets her position in the air to really speed up her rotation.

 

[Scott512]

Nothing is more dangerous than some of the comments I've read from you. Just a couple of days ago you were claiming a certain female skater was getting a boost in skating placement because of her "coming out story". (I don't remember your exact comment but it was something along those lines).
Your recent comment about Russia is not just biased, it reeks of Anti-Russian propaganda.


No one is telling you to close your eyes. You, thyself(!), have decided to conveniently close your eyes and ignore the overscorings of Sasha during Rostelecom, or Aliona, or plenty of Canadian, American and even some Japanese skaters.
You're so fixated on Anna and Kamila and singling them out to push your agenda that there is "Eteri bonus"?!

Who came out was she Russian?

To those who post in here I would think these people would like Russian skaters. I would hope so. Of course have your favorites. But the criticisms of Anya seem over the top.

This is not the place for any anti-Russian propaganda.

 

[Skatesocs]

Who came out was she Russian?

The person being referred to is Amber Glenn, I believe.

 

[Scott512]

Is there a chance that ISU is going to apply its pre-rotation rule again?
They canceled it because of COVID.

Yuzuru Hanyu on quad lutz pre-rotation:
"Of course, the 4Lz is very difficult, but it's possible that everyone may be able to jump it, if they want to. It also depends on the type of skater. In my case, no matter how hard I practice, I can't pre-rotate it. It wasn't taught that way when I was young. Gradually, the 4Lz might stop being a lutz jump."

Because a GOAT can do it doesn't mean everyone else can. He is one in a billion.

 

[FelineFairy]

Not quite the same. That angle's not great.



When I studied the differences between Trusova's and Shcherbakova's 4Lutz jumps in detail some time back, I noticed Trusova started her rotation far earlier than Shcherbakova. What I was wondering was, why does Trusova manage to actually land the 4Lutz with so much slower a rotation speed than Shcherbakova, when their quad jump heights aren't any different?

In this video it's not even solely about getting to position, Shcherbakova takes some time even after she gets her position in the air to really speed up her rotation.

Plushenko in one of his interviews talking about Sasha's technique of quad jumping said that she didn't start rotation quickly enough for him and he wanted her to accelerate the beginning in the way Mishin taught him. Is that what she did, while Anna didn't change the start?

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Because a GOAT can do it doesn't mean everyone else can. He is one in a billion.

He does not exactly "do it". How many times has Yuzuru Hanyu landed a 4Lz in competition? I think only two times. The others who have landed a real 4Lz - Nathan Chen, Boyang Jin and Mikhail Kolyada. Veronika Zhilina landed real 4Lz in practice - underrotated though but with minimal pre-rotation.
It is probably hard for Yuzuru that he is not able to land consistently 4Lz while other people land as If it is candy - including Shcherbakova and many men skaters.

 

[Scott512]

He does not exactly "do it". How many times has Yuzuru Hanyu landed a 4Lz in competition? I think only two times. The others who have landed a real 4Lz - Nathan Chen, Boyang Jin and Mikhail Kolyada. Veronika Zhilina landed real 4Lz in practice - underrotated though but with minimal pre-rotation.
It is probably hard for Yuzuru that he is not able to land consistently 4Lz while other people land as If it is candy - including Shcherbakova and many men skaters.

Zhilina needs to do it in competition. I am confident she will.

 

[Skatesocs]

Yuzuru and Nam praising Russian ladies

I saw God in that link. There was a Mao Asada replay recommended in it after all.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Don't use Yuzuru name to push your Anti-Anna agenda. Yuzuru has actually praised the technique of Russian quad jumpers INCLUDING ANNA:
Yuzuru and Nam praising Russian ladies

Sasha and Kamila jump good quad toes. And Sasha jumps also good quad salchows. Veronika Zhilina jumps textbook quad toes and textbook quad lutz (underrotated though).

 

[Blades of Passion]

You have decided to conveniently close your eyes and ignore the overscorings of Sasha during Rostelecom, or Aliona, or plenty of Canadian, American and even some Japanese skaters.
You're so fixated on Anna and Kamila and singling them out to push your agenda that there is "Eteri bonus"?!

This is completely wrong, why do you make such crazy assumptions? I constantly call out everything I see, regardless of any nationality or person, when it comes to judging or other issues I find to be wrong. Anyone who's been around here for more than a minute and ventured outside of Russian skating discussion knows that. It was even brought up in an adjacent thread within the past half-day, how much I felt Sasha was overscored as a Junior.

And honey, everyone who understanding skating politics, already knows there is a bonus for the "chosen" skaters. It simply became even more crystal clear at this competition, how far the political machine for Eteri goes, because we got to see a direct comparison of a skater who just left her, but is still skating at an extremely high level, and has in fact improved in many regards, yet was blatantly held down.

Don't use Yuzuru name to push your Anti-Anna agenda. Yuzuru has actually praised the technique of Russian quad jumpers INCLUDING ANNA:
Yuzuru and Nam praising Russian ladies

He never says their technique is the ideal of what the sport should be. More assumptions and twisting of words.

 

[Skatesocs]

@Skatesocs is right

(up until 3:45 )

 

[lopsilceci]

90% of skaters have an unclear edge on at least one jump and other technical mistakes. It seems to be more of a big deal to some fans than to the ISU themselves.

Personally, I prefer an unclear edge jump with difficult entries and exists and good flow to a jump with a looong super simple entrance and exit with clear edge.
I just find the first type more impressive and satisfying than the other.

Also, another thing about the judging is that judges seem to appreciate consistency over pretty much anything else.
Sasha has never been as consistent as Anna or Aliona and that has probably held her scores back more than anything.
Besides from doing very technically difficult programs, Eteri skaters are usually super consistent across different competitions, which is why they sometimes seem to be favored by judges over other skaters who are more unpredictable.
Maybe that's not fair and and it would be more transparent if skaters were judged solely by what they show on the actual day of the competition and not their reputation, but until the day that judges get completely replaced by robots, it is what it is.

 

[[email protected]]

The only big question now is who is going to be Russian Olympic team (should Olympics take place). Whatever happens this and next pre-Olympics season are the pieces of the puzzle. I am sure that team competition is one of those pieces. That's why there is Alyona and no Liza N. Being a lovely skater and a former prodigy Liza N has 0 chances. That's why whenever there is an event in the pre-Olympic chain she will spare her place for those who have chances.

The Olympic team will be picked with the ultimate goal of the podium sweep. Realistically, if nothing changes dramatically (and I see no reasons why it should) the only non-Russian podium threat is Rika. In the unlikely event of the Worlds in Sweden I would give 90%+ probability of Rika's getting the podium as she should beat the third Russian skater.

Next year is a different story. I don't think that Rika has big Olympic podium chances unless she raises her tech ante. Anna, Sasha, Kamilla just need to continue to build on what they already have. But in addition to them we have Darya's learning "ultra-C" jumps. I think that her scores this season reflect the expectations of her getting quads and 3A. That's why locally she is already in 230 range to ensure her strong international start if necessary. We also have Alyona who might be back stronger than before.

Provided there are no disasters, injuries, etc. the pool of Anna, Sasha, Kamila, Alyona, Darya is extra strong. To pick 3 out of 5 - that will be the most difficult and, alas, possibly political question.

What about the others? Liza T still has some benefit of a doubt. If she shows 3 clean 3As at the team event and at the Russian Cup final and if she somehow solidifies her 4S she has some minor chance for the next year team. That's why those 2 events are of utmost importance to her. I don't think that the Fed will allow her to start from the clean slate next year.

Zhenya and Alina - they are captains of the teams. They are not the team. The only realistic scenario for them to get to the Olympics is that they somehow build the best competitive shape ever while 3 out of 5 above mentioned skaters are in serious trouble. For Alina it is also about motivation - there are no indications that she is doing anything to start competing again.

Maya like Liza T is in the second-tier reserve. I would see her best chance if she becomes a quadster with at least solo 4S and 4S combo that she can deliver in a stable fashion while Darya fails to get "ultra-C" jumps. Even then there will be 4 more skaters ahead of her in the pecking order.

Whatever happens in this thread on dozens of pages for me personally is just a thunder in a glass. Who pre-rotates more? whose edges are worse? This is all irrelevant now - won't be in a year when choices will have to be made, difficult choices.

 

[zounger]

The Russian Olympic team will be whoever weighs less than 40 kilos by the Olympics. The rest is for talks in the forums.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

90% of skaters have an unclear edge on at least one jump and other technical mistakes. It seems to be more of a big deal to some fans than to the ISU themselves.

Personally, I prefer an unclear edge jump with difficult entries and exists and good flow to a jump with a looong super simple entrance and exit with clear edge.
I just find the first type more impressive and satisfying than the other.

Also, another thing about the judging is that judges seem to appreciate consistency over pretty much anything else.
Sasha has never been as consistent as Anna or Aliona and that has probably held her scores back more than anything.
Besides from doing very technically difficult programs, Eteri skaters are usually super consistent across different competitions, which is why they sometimes seem to be favored by judges over other skaters who are more unpredictable.
Maybe that's not fair and and it would be more transparent if skaters were judged solely by what they show on the actual day of the competition and not their reputation, but until the day that judges get completely replaced by robots, it is what it is.

I, too, love intricate entries and gorgeous flow out of jumps, but alas, there are other GOE bullets. And as much as I love, say, Daria's 3Lz from her SP (I just love her split jump!) I wouldn't hesitate to give it negative GOE.

But the thing about judges is that they should be able to judge based on what they see on the ice that particular day, not what they know about the skater. That's not some super difficult task that only a genius robot can do. I understand it may be difficult due to the fact that there's only one camera angle, but like, some of the slow mo camera angles at Russian Nationals exposed any and every fault with a jump. With the slow motion available I don't understand why Daria didn't get an "e" call. There is no GOE bullet for whether or not you get a heart attack before a skater goes into a jump, so a skaters inconsistencies really shouldn't be impacting GOE at all. None of the GOE bullets can be altered by previous knowledge that the skater might not land the jump. Does the fact that Sasha fell on her 4Lz at Rostelecom Cup take away from the quality of her 4Lz+3T at RusNats? No. And, even if consistency is rewarded, that still doesn't make sense. Tsibinova has been incredibly consistent this season, but where is her favorable judging? Kamila wasn't even all that consistent this season and yet she was rewarded.

And the fact that unclear edges are a widespread issue shouldn't take away from the fact that it is an issue. Just because 90% of skaters flutz doesn't mean that's okay. We should still take points off where it should be taken off.

 

[Mawwerg]

Oh, I left for a day and here are edge discussions.Seems like several pages of them...

 

[Shayuki]

The understanding is that with ladies they tend to be more lenient because hip structures sometimes make deep outside edge for Lutz, for example, almost impossible physically. So usually the calls aren't very strict.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The understanding is that with ladies they tend to be more lenient because hip structures sometimes make deep outside edge for Lutz, for example, almost impossible physically. So usually the calls aren't very strict.

Many ladies were doing strong outside-edge Lutzes decades ago, and the benefits a person has with their body, they deserve to get credit for. That's sport. People have just gotten lazier about it. Ladies with the best Lutz edges are always either less flexible or have some kind of extra difficulty with stabilizing their Flip edge to not clearly press onto to the outside, so it already balances out (really can't think of any Lady whose had amazing flexibility + totally unquestionable Lutz/Flip edges; and if they do, then good on them). It's an absurd double-standard to allow so much leniency on the jump, when giving 1 less GOE grade isn't even much of deduction; particularly when the extent of that leniency is only ever given to certain chosen skaters.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Ladies with the best Lutz edges are always either less flexible or have some kind of extra difficulty with stabilizing their Flip edge to not clearly press onto to the outside, so it already balances out (really can't think of any Lady whose had amazing flexibility + totally unquestionable Lutz/Flip edges; and if they do, then good on them).

Neither or them are the most flexible skaters ever to exist, but I think Maria Sotskova and Rika Kihira are fit that standard enough. Though, Masha had UR issues and I guess people don't think Rika performs enough?

All this to say, no skater is perfect, and instead of covering up imperfections with +5 GOEs, judges ought to take the deductions necessary and reward them in other places.

And if it is more difficult to get an outside edge for a lady, it seems even more unfair for them not to be rewarded for that hard work.

 

[Shayuki]

Many ladies were doing strong outside-edge Lutzes decades ago, and the benefits a person has with their body, they deserve to get credit for. That's sport. People have just gotten lazier about it. Ladies with the best Lutz edges are always either less flexible or have some kind of extra difficulty with stabilizing their Flip edge to not clearly press onto to the outside, so it already balances out (really can't think of any Lady whose had amazing flexibility + totally unquestionable Lutz/Flip edges; and if they do, then good on them). It's an absurd double-standard to allow so much leniency on the jump, when giving 1 less GOE grade isn't even much of deduction; particularly when the extent of that leniency is only ever given to certain chosen skaters.

Well, sure. I'm just saying, that tends to be the justification for ladies a lot of it is more lenient, like no calls when there could be !, or ! when there could be e, etc. Like I said, I don't think it'd be a very big deal for Anna to have to be given -1 GOE for ! every once in a while.


More importantly. Amazing flexibility + totally unquestionable Lutz / Flip edges? Well that'd be Veronika Zhilina, look for her in JGP next season. She has triple axel and 3 different quads. For now.