2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[anonymoose_au]

I'm not

Well good.

But a lot of people in here seem to have a real problem with others pointing out Anna's Lutz problem. Now when we do it we're expected to list all the other skaters who have problems with it too, lest we be unfair. Even though Aliona wasn't even at Nationals so her Lutz edge is a moot point.

You know who was there with a problem Lutz edge too? Daria U who also got no "!" But you can't bring that up either because it's "Just so meeeean" to pick on Daria.

Funny how you can be as nasty as you like to anyone not from Crystal:

Sasha = Boring jumping machine (although she always got this so special bonus points to Sasha, yaaaay she won something!)
Liza Tuk = A slow as molasses, arm waving throwback to the bad old days of no-transistions
Sofia Samodurova = Tiny jumping embarrassment
Staysa K = Total Trainwreck and overscored
Zhenya Med = Flutzer with delusions of grandeur, who doesn't know when she's finished (or maybe not since she's return to the centre of figure skating excellence)

Even Aliona K once the darling of this message board is losing fans by the second since leaving Crystal's hallowed halls.

But mention Anna's Lutz edge and "Oh my God!! You're such a bully!"

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

No, if we are having edge discussions and complaining about skaters getting away with uncalled edges, we should include EVERYONE with that issue in that discussion.
Not selectively focus on only one skater, and leave others out.

That poster said people shouldn't call this anti-Anna propaganda, I explained why some Anna fans are calling it Anti-Anna propaganda : "people have been going on and on and on complaining about Anna's edge for the past two days, and have conveniently left Aliona's edge problems out of the discussion, and the loudest voices among those people happen to be Aliona fans. If someone doesn't want to be called a hater when criticizing another skater, he shouldn't keep his favorite skater out of the discussion. I appreciate how @readernick tried to be objective in his/her post."

You may think it's ok to single out Anna and only discuss her issues, I don't and I have the right to express that opinion.

Obviously we should discuss everyone's issues, but it seems really unfair for someone to demand that a poster posts their opinion for every single lutz in existence just so their opinion is valid. If someone were to say: "well Anna takes off on a flat edge and so does Alyona" I could call them out for being partial to Zhenya or Daria or Maiia or whomever else has a problematic lutz. Did you really expect them to say: "certainly not this, nor Alyona's, nor Daria's, nor Zhenya's, nor Maiia's, nor Liza N's, nor Guliakova's, nor Samodelkina's, nor Petrosyan's, nor Alina's, nor Frolova's, nor Akatieva's, nor Samodurova's, nor etc" you get the point.

And yes I do think it's okay to single out Anna for a few days (although as the discussion seems to have moved towards how to judge I do agree with you that we ought to include more examples by this point). I mean I doubt we'll harp on her lutz for an eternity. We'll probably switch to juniors soon enough. Given we've discussed extensively issues like Sasha's flip, Alyona's programs, Kamila's change of edge, the Romeo and Juliet fiasco, Maiia's quads, Liza Tuktamysheva's programs etc etc. I think it's okay to have a discussion about Anna's lutz.

 

[lopsilceci]

Jesus, people, get over it already!
Yes, every single skater out there makes mistakes on one thing or another, nobody is flawless. They're only humans, not robots.

In a perfect world, judges would do their job with 100% precision and 0% bias, but we don't live in a perfect world, judges are also humans and figure skating is a very subjective sport anyway. Maybe that's even one of the things that make it so interesting.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Jesus, people, get over it already!
Yes, every single skater out there makes mistakes on one thing or another, nobody is flawless. They're only humans, not robots.

In a perfect world, judges would do their job with 100% precision and 0% bias, but we don't live in a perfect world, judges are also humans and figure skating is a very subjective sport anyway. Maybe that's even one of the things that make it so interesting.

You're right...

It just really hits a nerve in me when some skaters are treated like a protected species, while others seem to be the designated punching bags. And then when you point it out those people are like "Oh don't be such a precious flower, this is a sport!" And then proceed to tell you off if you bring up an issue with one of their favourites without the least bit of insight.

And maybe it's because my taste is horrible but most of my favourites seem to be on the punching bag list.

 

[lopsilceci]

You're right...

It just really hits a nerve in me when some skaters are treated like a protected species, while others seem to be the designated punching bags. And then when you point it out those people are like "Oh don't be such a precious flower, this is a sport!" And then proceed to tell you off if you bring up an issue with one of their favourites without the least bit of insight.

And maybe it's because my taste is horrible but most of my favourites seem to be on the punching bag list.

I guess we usually tend to focus more on the negative comments directed towards our favorites because we care so much about them and it almost feels like a personal insult to us.

You always say that Sasha and Liza T only get negative criticism and never get praised for the good things they do, but you either have never read the thread when good things have been said about them or you just filtered the positive comments out and focused on the negative, because it's just not true that those skaters only get hate here.

 

[lopsilceci]

One more thing I wanted to say...

Even though the judging system is flawed, at least the podium placements are usually fair and feel correct, even if the protocol sheets seem unbalanced or the scores seem inflated.

 

[Adjesusluvsu]

That was an interesting 30 minute read-through of all the arguments about Anna's Lutz edge. I don't know why I would actually want to post anything and add to the fire, but I guess here I go:

Anna is a beautiful skater, and I am proud of her, especially after seeing her perseverance at nationals! However, her Lutz edge deserves a call. She should not be getting +4 and +5 GOE's on a jump that has an edge call, as specified in the GOE deduction section of the rules.

And, if someone is concerned about me not mentioning a favorite skater, my favorite skater is a non-Russian male, so it is irrelevant in this thread. I guess there's a lot more I could say, but I'm probably going to get angry comments about my middle paragraph already, so I'll end this post here

 

[Dawn825]

I don't think any of these jump coaches are drilling single deep outside edge lutzes. Not Dudakov or anyone else.

You can also say every notable female skater besides Liza to come out of Mishin's group (Samodurova, Nugumanova, Fedichkina) does the significant prerotation. Even Liza does it for her 4T and 3F - the only jump she doesn't do it on is the 3Lz. Many of those skaters also have unclear edges. You can probably say this about every jump coach as there are very few female skaters who don't pre-rotate one of their lutz, flip, or toe-loop, let alone all 3.

No, most coaches are not doing that. Therefore, I would say most coaches don't care enough that their student flutz. Not just Tutberidze/Dudakov, but certainly including them.
Personally I think pre-rotating on the toe-pick with a deep outside edge (the way Nugumanova and many others do) isn't as bad as rolling onto the blade with a flat or inside edge (the way Scherbakova, Usacheva, Khromykh, and yes Samodurova do). Trusova falls in the middle, with the deep outside edge and the full blade assist. I'm afraid I don't know who Fedichkina is. I can't find any recent slow-motions of Tutemysheva's flip, but in 2015 she was using a full blade assist as you said. I can't care about pre-rotation on triple toe-loops - I don't have that kind of energy.
To be clear, I never said Tutberidze is the only coach who has skaters with technique problems. But if almost all of her considerable number of top skaters are using full blade assists on their lutzes, flutzes and flips, and on top of that, she's teaching them to jump quads that way, I don't know how it can be suggested that she's working hard to correct that - what I was originally disputing.

 

[colormyworld240]

Oh so it's unfair to harp on Anna's Lutz edge (which she hardly ever gets called on in competition - which is where it counts), but just fine to snark at Sasha for trying to better get artistry? I think her Love Story is beautiful, but some here think nothing of saying it's a total embarrassment and laughing at her.

As far as I can see Anna has done close to diddly-squat to improve her Lutz edge, but "Oooo don't be mean, she's doing her best!"

Sasha was probably doing her best with her artistry too, but did she get a pass? Hell no.

And now she's still getting flack for trying to improve it!

Yeah totally fair.

Weren't you also saying Sofia's URs and Liza's spin issues shouldn't be pointed out? And that we don't know that they're not working on them?

Of course Anna is working on her edge, Sasha is working on her artistry and flip edge, and every skater is working on every aspect of skating. Whether they're successful or not doesn't determine the work they put into it.

But yes, you're sure Anna is doing nothing to improve, she's just lazy. And she's selfish and irresponsible. I think you've made your stance on Anna pretty clear.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It is not about indoctrinations and preaching your own ideas/philosophy as they are the only valuable ones. Because that don't make you a judge, but a preach. Many people don't see what you are preaching. Why we should be preached by anyone in first place?

LOL, a mess. Everyone tries to promote their opinion, to have other people see their side of things. You're basically just arguing that you don't want to hear expert opinions if they do not align with your own. It's quite the contortion to say the desire to have proper judging of Lutzes, something everyone in skating knows is meant to take off from a clear outside, is some kind of "personal indoctrination".

You're incorrect about "preaching my own ideas as the only valuable ones". I constantly try to see all sides, and feel I've put more effort into doing exactly that, than virtually anyone else. The opinions I have are from multiple decades of skating experience and constant education on skating and other relevant arts and athletics. Not only that, but from constant analysis of skating scoring systems and discussing with other knowledgeable individuals (well tbh, they all aren't, but they are in appointed positions anyway, so...) about how to improve the rules/judging. When I see people writing opinions that clearly do not have an understanding of other viewpoints, or of skating history, or of basic facts about skating, then I become most fervent about pushing back against those things being said.

 

[chasingneverland]

Oh so it's unfair to harp on Anna's Lutz edge (which she hardly ever gets called on in competition - which is where it counts), but just fine to snark at Sasha for trying to better get artistry? I think her Love Story is beautiful, but some here think nothing of saying it's a total embarrassment and laughing at her.

As far as I can see Anna has done close to diddly-squat to improve her Lutz edge, but "Oooo don't be mean, she's doing her best!"

Sasha was probably doing her best with her artistry too, but did she get a pass? Hell no.

And now she's still getting flack for trying to improve it!

Yeah totally fair.

I don't know why you're bringing Sasha into this.

My whole argument is that Anna alone seems to be singled out in many cases. And I've tried to point out she is improving. No one is complaining about the comments about her lutz edge or arguing that it doesn't need to be improved. All people are saying is that (1) she's not the only one with questionable lutz technique - that's most of the girls on one jump or another and (2) people are attacking her character - for reference look at the post on how "she's annoying" because "she thinks she's perfect", apparently. People DO acknowledge her edge isn't perfect - at best people are saying it's slightly outside but most are saying at best flat if not unclear.

As far as Sasha is concerned, she wasn't mentioned at all so bringing her into this is missing the point of the discussion. However, since you brought her in you mentioned Anna not getting edge calls in competition - while by that same token Sasha's artistry does kinda get called in competition - it ties directly into her PCS which are lower - both nationally and internationally - than Aliona's and Anna's. However, that said, I see crazy improvements in that, especially when she has less jumps in her programs most notably in her SP but also in her FS at nationals - that's the best I've ever seen her skate a FS - she was beautiful. Second of all, people HAVE commented and praised her - I know I did but I wasn't the only one.

 

[chasingneverland]

Well I can tell you Sasha gets away with nothing, her flips have got "!" and "E" all season, which is fine, because she has a bad edge.

What's not fine is Anna getting ENORMOUS GOE in some cases +5 from some judges for her wrong edge Lutz. If she gets a +5 for it then what should Sasha with the correct edge get? +6? But she doesn't, Sasha's slightly awkward landings are apparently much worse then not even doing the right jump in the first place.

Plus there's the fact that if Anna was called it would have no effect whatsoever on placements, she'd still win by miles. That makes this whole pushback even worse, why are you so resistant to Anna getting "!" when she deserves it? I could almost understand if doing so would cost her gold, but it won't. It doesn't hurt her results one little bit, you know what it does do though? Send a message that technique counts. If I were Sasha if be so discouraged, why bother doing a deep outside edge Lutz (especially since that's probably what gives her so much trouble with the flip in the first place) with a flat edge will get you as much if not more points? It's probably less difficult to do too.

Anna already has the artistry, spins and consistency, you could at least give Sasha respect for her Lutz technique.

I agree with Anna getting an edge call ! in the same competition where Sasha gets !. Daria, I think, should have an E.

That wasn't the point. I'm not saying she DOESN'T need to work on it and it doesn't deserve a call. Just that she's being singled out, unfairly, AND her CHARACTER is being attacked. That's what the pushback is for. Also the point IS that she would win with the calls - quite a few people are saying others are robbed of their victories if Anna doesn't get edge calls which is quite frankly not true. Even if you include them she WOULD still win. That's the point. No one is being resistant - people are defending her from (1) being singled out and (2) having her character assassinated. And quite frankly Anna doesn't even get the edge calls internationally (usually) so expecting them here is quite frankly a bit ridiculous.

 

[Dawn825]

My whole argument is that Anna alone seems to be singled out in many cases. And I've tried to point out she is improving. No one is complaining about the comments about her lutz edge or arguing that it doesn't need to be improved. All people are saying is that (1) she's not the only one with questionable lutz technique - that's most of the girls on one jump or another and (2) people are attacking her character - for reference look at the post on how "she's annoying" because "she thinks she's perfect", apparently. People DO acknowledge her edge isn't perfect - at best people are saying it's slightly outside but most are saying at best flat if not unclear.

Anna gets singled out because the judges singled her out first - by crowning her 3 time national champion. They've determined her to be the best ladies skater in Russia, and by extension the world. Obviously she's going to get the most attention, it's perfectly normal. And by giving someone a perfect score on something, that is an invitation for people to point out why it isnt perfect. Again, a perfectly normal reaction to a situation instigated by the judges.
No one should be commenting on Anna's personality, and most people don't. When someone does, I personally havent seen a bunch of others rushing to agree.

 

[chasingneverland]

Well good.

But a lot of people in here seem to have a real problem with others pointing out Anna's Lutz problem. Now when we do it we're expected to list all the other skaters who have problems with it too, lest we be unfair. Even though Aliona wasn't even at Nationals so her Lutz edge is a moot point.

You know who was there with a problem Lutz edge too? Daria U who also got no "!" But you can't bring that up either because it's "Just so meeeean" to pick on Daria.

Funny how you can be as nasty as you like to anyone not from Crystal:

Sasha = Boring jumping machine (although she always got this so special bonus points to Sasha, yaaaay she won something!)
Liza Tuk = A slow as molasses, arm waving throwback to the bad old days of no-transistions
Sofia Samodurova = Tiny jumping embarrassment
Staysa K = Total Trainwreck and overscored
Zhenya Med = Flutzer with delusions of grandeur, who doesn't know when she's finished (or maybe not since she's return to the centre of figure skating excellence)

Even Aliona K once the darling of this message board is losing fans by the second since leaving Crystal's hallowed halls.

But mention Anna's Lutz edge and "Oh my God!! You're such a bully!"

You keep missing the points of conversations and responding to perceived slights against your fav skaters (many of which are among my fav.)

First of all,

(1) It's not Anna's edge that people are pushing back against - most agree it isn't perfect. People are accusing people of being mean because quite frankly people were attacking her character which has nothing to do with her technique and was quite frankly unfounded and irrelant.

(2) Perhaps I should remind you of the Anna nationals fever/pneumonia/etc debacle - of which you in many cases where a vocal and prominent voice against Anna and her character. So you're completely wrong in the nastiness to people not from Crystal.

(3) No one mentioned most of your complaints in fact you're often the first person to mention negative things about your favourite skaters. However, it isn't incorrect to say that
- Sasha does focus on her jumps and it is her primary strength, sometimes to the determent of other aspects. She does seem to be improving in her artistry and consistency but it still isn't her strength but must improved!
- Liza's artistry/performance is in many cases primarily conveyed through her arm choreography. She is improving in her tech though - amazing!!! - and has sold her programs better this year.
- Sofia's jumps do tend to be smaller than average and she does tend towards underrotations. However, she's an amazing performer and her spirit shines through - she deserves higher PCS for performance and interpretation - she almost always sells her programs!
- Stasya does have a tendency to fall apart once she makes a mistake and unlike some others doesn't have the TES/PCS/reputation to save her programs when she does struggle, especially internationally. However, when it all comes together, she's magic - her presentation on the ice is beautiful.
- Evgenia does have issues with her lutz edge. (She's not the only one.) Due to a neverending stream of injuries as well as her tech not being overly competitive, she is playing a catchup game (although once again not the only one.) She is however an amazing competitor, is determined to continue to improve, has a enviable resume, and is absolutely beautiful and stunning on the ice. Watching her perform is a privilege.

What would be incorrect would be to move beyond discussing technique - especially of solely one skater when they're not the only one - and move to assassinating ones character. That's where the pushback arrose.

 

[chasingneverland]

You're right...

It just really hits a nerve in me when some skaters are treated like a protected species, while others seem to be the designated punching bags. And then when you point it out those people are like "Oh don't be such a precious flower, this is a sport!" And then proceed to tell you off if you bring up an issue with one of their favourites without the least bit of insight.

And maybe it's because my taste is horrible but most of my favourites seem to be on the punching bag list.

No one is acting like Anna is a protected species.

 

[Greengemmonster]

Anna has been singled out for all sorts of nonsense for years.

I wasn't a fan of hers initially. Just a neutral viewer who would watch her programs. I thought she was very competent but I didn't pay close attention. It was the relentless criticism of her skating skills, weight, jumps and general abilities that actually made me focus on her more, to try and understand why there was such a dedicated campaign towards her alleged skating demise.

I became Anna's fan in the process

So yeah.... Anna gets picked on plenty and in the past the things said about her were absolutely ridiculous for a skater of her abilities. At one point someone suggested she might be sent back to juniors and that she might lose there to Kamila.

It wasn't constructive criticism. It was straight up fantasy hatred.

 

[anonymoose_au]

No one mentioned most of your complaints in fact you're often the first person to mention negative things about your favourite skaters

Perhaps it's because I enjoy going to the competition threads when events are on and commenting with others. At least I usually enjoy it, but sometimes people say the nastiest things you can think of about a skaters program, their music choices, their style and sometimes even their personalities and not in a joking way. I've heard all those comments about the skaters I listed.

I guess the idea is what happens in the competition thread stays in the competition thread? It seems a bit disengenous to be full on nasty in one part of the board and then be super nice elsewhere.

Perhaps my problem is I do the opposite...

 

[Fried]

At one point someone suggested she might be sent back to juniors (...)

Yes, I've also heard that a certain Eteri had once thrown Anna out of the group because of poor performance. I have no idea who this Eteri is. Probably an Anna hater.

 

[colormyworld240]

Anna gets singled out because the judges singled her out first - by crowning her 3 time national champion. They've determined her to be the best ladies skater in Russia, and by extension the world. Obviously she's going to get the most attention, it's perfectly normal. And by giving someone a perfect score on something, that is an invitation for people to point out why it isnt perfect. Again, a perfectly normal reaction to a situation instigated by the judges.
No one should be commenting on Anna's personality, and most people don't. When someone does, I personally havent seen a bunch of others rushing to agree.

But the thing is even if she got ! calls, she would've still won. And she's not the only one to have missed calls. When any of those other calls are pointed out, there are many saying it doesn't matter, only that Anna's aren't. Anna's score would be lower if she got ! for her lutz. But Kamila and Sasha's scores wouldn't have stayed the same either. Kamila would have to be deducted for her combos and her PE/INT score wouldn't be near Anna's so she'd have a lower score. Sasha's flip would've gotten an e instead of a ! which would lower her score.

And the narrative has been that Anna's lutz edge defines her as a skater and her jumps are bad even though take-off is just one GOE bullet; they conveniently ignore the positive qualities in her jumps like she shouldn't be awarded for those because of her edge.

The comparison to Sasha at nationals:
- Sasha has a correct edge on her lutz, but she had a bad landing but the narrative was that Anna's better landing and position don't matter because Sasha has a better edge than Anna, when in fact good landing is also a GOE bullet.
- And even the edge argument is applied unevenly. When it was brought up that Sasha's flip should've gotten an e, the narrative was that it didn't matter because she got a ! and has a better lutz edge than Anna. When in fact a flip has flat and wrong edge calls just like a lutz, and there is as much of a distinction between ! vs e as there is between ! and no call.

If judging was 100% correct, Anna would have gotten a ! on her lutz and lower GOE, but a lutz takeoff isn't the only component of a jump, let alone all of figure skating. Otherwise, it'd be a lutz take off competition and there'd be no need to rotate and land the jump or do the rest of the program.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Maybe they should just add two more jumps to figure skating, Flutz and Lip (although they probably should get new names!). So many skaters do one or another.

I'd prefer that to the ISU making the Lutz and flip scoring the same. How will that even work? Will Sasha's flip suddenly be marked as a Lutz because of its edge? If so how will she know it has been so she doesn't Zayak? Or will they just go with the jump layout submitted (but don't skaters change their programs all the time?)?