2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Scott512]

It's only the next week, unfortunately. Though I can see another round then, like "why Sofia Akatieva this" vs. "why Sofia Samodelkina that" (remember Plushenko was calling CSKA into the alliance while all the lower competitions around Moscow are very proCSKA scored so "really Plushenko?" ) naturally followed by "Veronika Zhilina was robbed"

I already thought of that and I didn't want to post anything about Sofia A and how the complaints are gonna start coming about her if she wins and not CSKA Sofia if she wins.

 

[Jontor]

When it comes to National Competitions being overscored - yes they probably are.

But internationally, the only competitions that are harshly judged are the Challengers and the GPs, but then when you come to GPF, Europeans, 4CC and Worlds, it usually means that the tech panel takes a break and the scores are very generous. Last year at 4CC, the whole top ten girls had a SB score! Were they all better? Some was, but not all of them... And remember Samodurova at Europeans in 2019 when she had a fantastic score, with a program she had delivered flawlessly throughout the season, but Europeans scored her even better than Nationals did.

So international scoring is not that reliable either.

My point? Well, I think a lot of people are obsessing over overscoring lots of times when there really is no need. EACH competition needs to be reviewed separately. And that is even between short and long programs within the same competition.

That said, overscoring Nationally only hurt the skaters in the long run. Was the RusNats overscored - yes it was. Was the US nationals oversocred - yes, that was just plain insane. Maybe the federations are trying to boost their competitiors with self confidence, that's understandable...

 

[bubblecherry]

To recap: Anna often has an unclear or wrong edge on her lutz. Sasha often has an unclear or wrong edge on her flip. Alyona sometimes has an unclear edge on both jumps or wrong edge on her lutz. This is information we’ve known for months, years even. Is everyone not bored of this conversation yet? Can we enjoy skating or do we have to freeze frame every single takeoff to bring down these amazing skaters at all times?

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

When I see how passionate fans are about clearly biased and unfair judging, I Imagine how the skaters themselves feel. Imagine trying your hardest and doing your best only to know that all the Ur and edges will be magically seen in that one camera angle but another skater's will never be seen and they will be consistently overscored.

Also for people saying that Anna will get -1 goe for an edge call, that's not true. Firstly, with the call, her goe cap will be 3 and then with -1 to -2 for the edge call, she will be getting 0 to +1 for that jump. That's about 11.5 or 12.65 Vs the >16 points she's getting for that 4Lutz. Might she still have won, yes, but that is uncertain when all her lutzes are called across the SP and the FP. That gives every one else a fair chance to compete. It's suffocating seeing a group of skaters consistently overscored and all their problems overlooked.

Exactly! And what about her excessive pre-rotation? ISU canceled the pre-rotation rule unfortunately. But her pre-rotation indeed deserves deduction.
And what about her jumps' height and distance? Her triples are small. Her quads are not that big either with several exceptions.
What about her technique? Her jumps are not aesthetically pleasant at all.
What about her skating skills? They are poor.
All of these problems have to be addressed.

 

[Pale]

To recap: Anna often has an unclear or wrong edge on her lutz. Sasha often has an unclear or wrong edge on her flip. Alyona sometimes has an unclear edge on both jumps or wrong edge on her lutz. This is information we’ve known for months, years even. Is everyone not bored of this conversation yet? Can we enjoy skating or do we have to freeze frame every single takeoff to bring down these amazing skaters at all times?

We ? Medvedeva fans ?
I certainly have a problem with your claim that Anna often has a wrong edge on her Lz. That's just another bs

 

[flanker]

When it comes to National Competitions being overscored - yes they probably are.

But internationally, the only competitions that are harshly judged are the Challengers and the GPs, but then when you come to GPF, Europeans, 4CC and Worlds, it usually means that the tech panel takes a break and the scores are very generous. Last year at 4CC, the whole top ten girls had a PB score! Were they all better? Some was, but not all of them... And remember Samodurova at Europeans in 2019 when she had a fantastic score, with a program she had delivered flawlessly throughout the season, but Europeans scored her even better than Nationals did.

So international scoring is not that reliable either.

My point? Well, I think a lot of people are obsessing over overscoring lots of times when there really is no need. EACH competition needs to be reviewed separately. And that is even between short and long programs within the same competition.

Depends on the event and the skater. For instance 2019 Warshaw Cup, Nugumanova and Sakhanovich harshly underscored, Ekaterina Kurakova totally overscored.

 

[Jontor]

Depends on the event and the skater. For instance 2019 Warshaw Cup, Nugumanova and Sakhanovich harshly underscored, Ekaterina Kurakova totally overscored.

Agreed. But that was just plain home advantage...something you have to take into account as well.

 

[sparklestan]

Well, If she had been so intelligent and so decent she would have worked harder in order to achieve much better technique and not this supbar modified technique of hers.

Hahaha. I am laughing very hard.

And spins, interpretation and bla bla bla are not enough to win anything.

Yuzuru Hanyu, Nathan Chen, Boyang Jin, Mikhail Kolyada, Yuna Kim, Carolina Kostner, Alena Kostornaya and Alexia Paganini are worse than Anna according to you - HAHAHA!

Hi Nadya!!

Have you ever been a figure skater or skating coach yourself?

I recently changed coaches and when I did I had to relearn a lot of technique because the technique my first coach taught me was incorrect. When I was jumping with the wrong technique (much worse than Anna’s, seriously the insults you could have thrown at me lol) it wasn’t because I was lazy or stupid, but simply because that was the way I was taught.

I don’t think I was a bad person because my lutz jumped off a deep inside edge.

Please keep this in mind when you criticize skaters personality and work ethic off of their technique.

 

[flanker]

When I see how passionate fans are about clearly biased and unfair judging, I Imagine how the skaters themselves feel. Imagine trying your hardest and doing your best only to know that all the Ur and edges will be magically seen in that one camera angle but another skater's will never be seen and they will be consistently overscored.

Also for people saying that Anna will get -1 goe for an edge call, that's not true. Firstly, with the call, her goe cap will be 3 and then with -1 to -2 for the edge call, she will be getting 0 to +1 for that jump. That's about 11.5 or 12.65 Vs the >16 points she's getting for that 4Lutz. Might she still have won, yes, but that is uncertain when all her lutzes are called across the SP and the FP. That gives every one else a fair chance to compete. It's suffocating seeing a group of skaters consistently overscored and all their problems overlooked.

Calling all Anna's Lutzes has nothing to do with fairness, it's that 100 times repeated lie established as truth.

 

[bubblecherry]

We ? Medvedeva fans ?
I certainly have a problem with your claim that Anna often has a wrong edge on her Lz. That's just another bs

What? Medvedeva? Did I say anything about her? I’m Anna’s fan and I’m not getting into an argument about edges. It’s boring.

 

[Skatesocs]

But we can't decide which half.

You should vote against the half you're not a part of

Maybe nine volunteers on GS could assemble into a "panel of judges" for some competitions and make the "local" scores (plus eventually 3 more for tech panel)

I wouldn't mind this either lol

 

[Skatefan15]

Calling all Anna's Lutzes has nothing to do with fairness, it's that 100 times repeated lie established as truth.

It kind of does have something to do with fairness and it’s not a lie, she doesn’t take off of the right edge (just like Evgenia, Daria, Sofia, and Aliona *sometimes*, etc.) Calling out a skater’s technical flaws doesn’t mean someone is a hater...

Sorry to add on more to this conversation (I know everyone is tired of it), but when so many slow mos and comparisons exist that show her clearly shift to a flat or inside (no matter the angle) it becomes kind of frustrating to see so many people argue (or rather state) that it isn’t. There are certain things fans can agree to disagree on for other aspects of this sport, but when there is video proof of her not doing a jump correctly, I don’t get how people justify it (not trying to be rude at all and also don’t agree with people who go to attacking a skater’s character).

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

To recap: Anna often has an unclear or wrong edge on her lutz. Sasha often has an unclear or wrong edge on her flip. Alyona sometimes has an unclear edge on both jumps or wrong edge on her lutz. This is information we’ve known for months, years even. Is everyone not bored of this conversation yet? Can we enjoy skating or do we have to freeze frame every single takeoff to bring down these amazing skaters at all times?

I was going to say that despite knowing these things, the skaters aren't being punished for their faults (well, I guess Sasha is for the flip edge, but still not really in PCS) and thus we should keep on discussing because clearly nothing is being solved. The end of this isn't Anna has a wrong edge or Alyona has a wrong edge or Sasha has a wrong edge or Daria has a wrong edge etc etc etc it's they should get deductions for the wrong edge. Also I would say that we can critique skaters because they aren't perfect, they're human, and it's kind of unhealthy to praise them as perfect gods.

BUT, given this discussion has happened numerous times concerning various skaters and nothing has been done. I actually agree. Clearly we're not going to change ISU rules by discussing here, and the end result was just everyone learning absolutely nothing new.

 

[readernick]

To recap: Anna often has an unclear or wrong edge on her lutz. Sasha often has an unclear or wrong edge on her flip. Alyona sometimes has an unclear edge on both jumps or wrong edge on her lutz. This is information we’ve known for months, years even. Is everyone not bored of this conversation yet? Can we enjoy skating or do we have to freeze frame every single takeoff to bring down these amazing skaters at all times?

You know. I agree. We all do know. However, the post right after yours does show why ( imho) Anna tends to get more criticism on this site. As it is a poster denying that Anna has any edge issues, while ignoring the point of your post. You tell Med fans that she flutzes and they say " yes" but she is still a lovely skater. That ends the discussion. You tell Sasha fans she has a lip and they agree, but are just upset about the fact the other girls aren't getting called on their edges. That ends the discussion about Sasha's flip although it probably starts a different ,also unpleasant ,discussion. However, certain fans are unwilling to acknowledge that Anna has any technical issues.( Not all, she does have some honest fans who defend her without constantly gaslighting) and , often, refuse to acknowledge that any Eteri skater is ever overscored domestically or internationally. They take offense at any criticism of the choreography..This constant denial of something anything with eyes can see makes other posters want to fight back against the gaslighting. The whole process just keeps going. It is especially funny when you see these same touchy posters make disparaging remarks about skaters from other countries or other coaching teams, while claiming other posters who make even slight constructive criticism of any of their favorites are jealous and biased. This is behavior from a small group of people but they run this thread.

All that being said, there is one poster on this site who tends to believe that technical issues, and the judges overscoring certain skaters means that it is acceptable to personally attack those skaters. I do wonder why said poster is still allowed to post on this site. No one should make such comments about any hard-working teenage girl who is just doing their best and is not responsible for the way they are scored. I can only assume that said poster is very young and immature, because if it is an adult poster making these comments, they really lack any emotional maturity.

 

[anonymoose_au]

...while all the lower competitions around Moscow are very proCSKA scored

Legitimate question here...why is it that the CSKA competitiors are definitely overscored and that there's totally a bonus for them and that's just a fact, but suggesting that Crystal competitors also get overscored and the "Eteri bonus" is the height of slander?

Are people really saying CSKA skaters can't be better than Crystal ones? Like ever?

I'm starting to wonder if the judges should be made to sit in an entirely different room and when they watch the skaters on a big screen there's no identifying information and faces are blurred.

It would be an interesting experiment actually, how would skaters be scored if it was entirely down to the skating, with no knowledge of who the skater is, who their coach is and who they represent.

 

[flanker]

It kind of does have something to do with fairness and it’s not a lie, she doesn’t take off of the right edge (just like Evgenia, Daria, Sofia, and Aliona *sometimes*, etc.) Calling out a skater’s technical flaws doesn’t mean someone is a hater...

Sorry to add on more to this conversation (I know everyone is tired of it), but when so many slow mos and comparisons exist that show her clearly shift to a flat or inside (no matter the angle) it becomes kind of frustrating to see so many people argue (or rather state) that it isn’t. There are certain things fans can agree to disagree on for other aspects of this sport, but when there is video proof of her not doing a jump correctly, I don’t get how people justify it (not trying to be rude at all and also don’t agree with people who go to attacking a skater’s character).

You probably suppose people don't have eyes. As was already stated, Koola King tactics to assasinate a person by posting wrong frames doesn't creeate the reality some want to believe in.

 

[Pale]

The first one gives a "q" call on Anna's 4Lz in his video
The second one measures height (27cm)
The third one claims her Lutzes e/!

So in the end the picture is quite clear
She jumped a tiny quad with either e or ! on the edge + borderline under
That is not alright, but that is how it works

It has nothing to do with objective truth or whatever you call it

 

[flanker]

Legitimate question here...why is it that the CSKA competitiors are definitely overscored and that there's totally a bonus for them and that's just a fact, but suggesting that Crystal competitors also get overscored and the "Eteri bonus" is the height of slander?

Are people really saying CSKA skaters can't be better than Crystal ones? Like ever?

I'm starting to wonder if the judges should be made to sit in an entirely different room and when they watch the skaters on a big screen there's no identifying information and faces are blurred.

It would be an interesting experiment actually, how would skaters be scored if it was entirely down to the skating, with no knowledge of who the skater is, who their coach is and who they represent.

Just go through the particular competitive threats, discussed many times there like at the Moscow champoionships now, CSKA skaters received 3 to 4 higher PCS across the whole starting field than other skaters on similar level (remember that on a competition with about 30 skaters 6, 8 or even more are from CSKA so it's quite visible). And it has nothing to do with being "better than Crystal ones", that's once again imposing something that nobody said, it doesn't matter particularly towards them. Just that CSKA provides the background for the competitions, Crystal does not

 

[Skatesocs]

Anna 4Lz 27cm (14 frames)

From the video you linked, I counted 18 or 19 frames. Certainly not anywhere close to 14.

 

[Shayuki]

Annas and Sashas quads at RusNats did not have the same height. It might have been different in juniors but I cant be bothered to go back and check. The heights at RusNats where approximately
Sasha 4Lz(+3T) 55cm (20 frames)
Sasha 4Lz 60cm (21 frames)
Anna 4Lz 27cm (14 frames)
Anna 4F 44cm (18 frames)

Hm, at Rusnats they apparently were smaller and less rotated than usual, but still 19f, not 18. Or 14.

Generally, the smallest rotated triples I've seen are 13, and those were Anna's 3Loops after she returned from injury. Her 3Lutz was 14 at the time too, now it's like 16.